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Re: Willow Springs Race June 18th Roll Call

Posted: May 19 2011 6:31pm
by liveforphysics
Of course not. That's not a race I would bother to enter if that's the level of competition I would be up against.


When I enter a race, I want the opponents to have committed every ounce of their resources and efforts into building something insane, and then I want them to ride against me like the outcome of the race determines the life or death of their family. That's the sort of competition I like to have in any event.

Re: Willow Springs Race June 18th Roll Call

Posted: May 20 2011 10:57am
by SoSauty
Love the banter around here,

Evo Ed,
People who have not raced should not be thinking of making any rules. This event, and any like it, so far, have not paid place money. MOST RULES ARE NOT NEEDED....YET. We are doing this for fun, period
the Thudster
I am sick of talking about power limits, class structure, safety, & everything else.
the Aussie
Am i the only one that has a sneaking suspicion BiMoped wants the power levels of e-bikes constrained so not to upstage the stink bikes...again?
Luke of FlamingBikesInc
I want them to ride against me like the outcome of the race determines the life or death of their family
Dave
For every 10 HP you have to add another body to the bike.
This is the stuff that makes the event a high point of my aged 2nd childhood (more fun than the 1st :wink: ). I'm gonna be charged with the memory of being on the track trying to fight off Luke 'an PaulD from lapping me: getting a close up view of one sneaking a pass on the other. Or could be just about any unexpected turn of race events. Also, like Thudster, I crave learning something that make me faster/better on the track next time.

Ed; I like your view and hope to add a bit to it: don't like wet diaper whiners wanting rules to suit the feelings they invested into their builds. If they haven't earned respect with an involved build, or made a sacrifice to promote/contributed to the sport, then my ear is deaf to them. I respect the guy who puts in the hours to challenge us to build a faster, safer, more reliable bike build, (PaulD, Luke, Thud, Alex, Dave31, many others) I respect the guy who puts in the hours to make motored bike events possible, the guy that faces the insurance man (California requires 5 million $$ of liability insurance for any hobby race) then answers, there shouldn't be any motored bikes over 10 or 11 horsepower, the guy that signs his name and shells out the moola for the policy.

Todd; A true pleasure to know you and count you as my friend, what a Harvard mastery of blue collar slang you have. Some history on safety; my wife has spent the day/night with me in the ER on 2 occassions after significant bicycle accidents. Have a misaligned non-union clavicle that is prone to puncturing a major artery if I crash hard on right shoulder. It's not so much my fears, as not wanting to put my wife thru any unnecessary grief due to my throwing safety to the wind. As I was leaving for Tucson, she asked, "You have your insurance card?"
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2011/0 ... ace-crash/

AJ: you'd be proud to know that I insulted a Kiwi recently by guessing his accent was Australian. The SpookyTooth crowd is a great bunch of builders, worthy opponents to be respected. Trust me, they don't want to beat us by gaming the rules. Rather, expect those guys to get some of their cutting edge concepts into play. Heard 1 guy say he may have some sort of 4 speed shifter that'll hold up :shock: Even if an ICE wins, these events are new blood giving life to advancing all sorts of motored bike builds.

Luke: Where's my crimper man :P Really though, you've broken alot of e-bike barriers, am dying to learn about your Gen4 controller. A BIG controller trumps a big motor everytime; ebikers can vicariously live thru you as you dominate the field with an 8.8hp electric :!:

Etard: You're on the cutting edge of suicidal solutions :oops: What bike build do you have in the works?

For anyone who thinks, good grief, too intense; well, have to say that almost half the bike riders that show are content to be in the 20mph club and just enjoy riding their commuter bikes. With gas prices going up, up, and leaving the stratosphere, all is well with that crowd.

Seems we had only 3 e-bike finishers at Tucson. A few more finishers at Rosamond and our sport will have wings. Com'on Rosamond, the RattleSnake Classic 8)

Magazine will cover Willow Springs event

Posted: May 20 2011 5:51pm
by Henry111
www.ElectricBicyclesMagazine.com will be covering the Willow Springs even with lots of photos, so we hope lots of you will show up.

Re: Willow Springs Race June 18th Roll Call

Posted: May 21 2011 6:56am
by dogman dan
I tried to finish the DR, riding the whole thing on a flat front tire. Only smoked the motor on the last dang lap. :lol: :lol: :lol: Last or not, I wanted to finish!

Re: Willow Springs Race June 18th Roll Call

Posted: May 21 2011 11:25am
by SoSauty
Well Dogmanz, what I expected out of you was to see you jog the last couple of laps with dead motor and front tire :!: You'll have to make up for your DR shortcomings by driving all the way out to Rosamond, CA. I'll feed you steak and imported beer when you arrive :wink:

Re: Willow Springs Race June 18th Roll Call

Posted: May 22 2011 1:47pm
by etard
the RattleSnake Classic
I like it, scares the GF a little less than "Death Race" prolly the same for you too, huh Will?

I have just been slaving away non-stop on this next build, my fingers are nubs, my back is perma bent and my whole body is strawberried from road testing my racer. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Oh wait, no that's Thud! Poor guy was misfoutunate enough to offer the steed that he had prepped for another board member, and then decided to get the thing completely built up before sending it out to me. Thud is an awesome and giving guy, we are so privilaged to have him here, and I feel privilaged to ride one of his builds. All at the same time, Thud said he would come out and break my kneecaps if I didn't win, so be looking out for this bike and a maniac throwing elbows! :twisted:

Re: Willow Springs Race June 18th Roll Call

Posted: May 22 2011 1:52pm
by etard
More Pics:

Re: Willow Springs Race June 18th Roll Call

Posted: May 22 2011 3:37pm
by Thud
LOL,
You forgot the link to the ultimate proving session....A bike is worthless if you can't hammer on it....I brought a carton of eggs to the death race....This bike (a little less powerfull :D ) but 100% proven to take a fall & keep on trucking.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkEFxSn0cW4

Re: Willow Springs Race June 18th Roll Call

Posted: May 22 2011 11:46pm
by SoSauty
No Fair! I want special rules that'll let me win, I wanna win, whaaaaaaaaaaah, you better let me win Etard or I'm gonna, I'm gonna . . . XXX :x

Jimminee, got lost counting the lipo bricks in series, must be 24S. Do you think you can stay on it Etard? Boy, talk about Thud lending a hand :twisted:

Will

Re: Willow Springs Race June 18th Roll Call

Posted: May 23 2011 4:58am
by AussieJester
SoSauty wrote: Do you think you can stay on it Etard? Boy, talk about Thud lending a hand :twisted:
Of course he can he's TeaM ThuD! GO GO GO TeaM ThuD!! :mrgreen: Is this the first count of full sponsored rider we have seen
in e-bike racing i'm wondering hahaha Best of luck etard man :-)

KiM

Re: Willow Springs Race June 18th Roll Call

Posted: May 24 2011 2:56am
by AussieJester
:: tightens the drag a lil::..
BiMoPed wrote:
AussieJester wrote:
Thud wrote:Thundedrome?
For starters, the organizers need to understand what a RACE is. I laugh when I hear about a fast bike being "dangerous" on a race track. If its a "Run on the track Ralley event" call it what it is....calling it a race will bring racers who will pay & play to win.
+1
Am i the only one that has a sneaking suspicion BiMoped wants the power levels of e-bikes constrained so not to upstage the stink bikes...again? :P

KiM
WTF
hey, that is not a quote from me! i never said anything like that.
No, you didn't :roll: We never said you did, your quoting a post by myself and Thud :?

BiMoPed wrote:Willow Springs event is at a race track but its not only about racing.
But..there will still be racing right?!
BiMoPed wrote:gas bikes can play the same power escalation that some of you eBikers are all
about.
Bring it on i say :lol: love to see a 500cc two stroke strapped to schwinn :wink: :lol:
BiMoPed wrote:My mate wants to put a 17 hp water cooled 6 speed Morini into his bike now that
will only weigh about 85 lbs.
17hp pffft... what a pussy :P anyone knows you gotta have 25hp on a biiiicyle before it
starts to perform :P
BiMoPed wrote:You eBikers with your claiming rules and other nonsense would kill anything off.
Yeah those bastard e-bikers! them dum gone damn evil :mrgreen:

KiM

Re: Willow Springs Race June 18th Roll Call

Posted: May 24 2011 3:27am
by AussieJester
BiMoPed wrote:
AussieJester wrote:
WTF
hey, that is not a quote from me! i never said anything like that.
No, you didn't :roll: We never said you did, your quoting a post by myself and Thud :?

There was major implication in that post ......
And in yours, hence i bought it up in the first place :-P
BiMoPed wrote:One of my mates who was at the Death Race said most of you ebikers were a
bunch of freaking nerds LOL
Yep derez no accountin' fur dem higher I.Q e-bikerz ...demz just a bunch of weirdoz
that can spellz and do sumz real good... :mrgreen:

KiM

Re: Willow Springs Race June 18th Roll Call

Posted: May 24 2011 6:24am
by AussieJester
BiMoPed wrote:What was the deal with that amberwolf guy?
You mean ES amberwolf?
one of the Endless Sphere moderators? :lol:
BiMoPed wrote:he shows up with a broken leg????
on a rolling disaster of a bike which he admits was uncontrollable.
Wouldn't be a true dinky die race meet if there wasn't at least one guy hobbling around
in the pits as a result of a 'racing incident' :P
BiMoPed wrote:then crashes hurting himself and luckily not taking anyone else out!
A risk all competitors take, some are also are not able to throw as much $$$ at their bikes as yourself
and do the best they can, if it is road worthy its race worth and that bike was Amberwolfs daily rider...
BiMoPed wrote:I will not tolerate any bullshit like that at Willow Springs.
If your bike is unsafe stay off the frocking track you moron!
Good for you! if those nerdy e-bikes don't meet your stringent requirement be damned if they
will be allowed on track to show up them gasserz :mrgreen:
BiMoPed wrote:there will be a safety inspection and anyone that pulls a stunt like that
will be kicked off the track.
I am not a nice guy like Dave LOL
Except for the stink bikes they will obviously be allowed to compete regardless of their condition :wink:
'wiff dem darn nerdy e-bikerz off da scene doze stink bikez wont be beat again damnitz!'


KiM

p.s oh HAHA... and to address your edit before.."Nice try LOL he may be a pussy and I wouldn't say that to his face as he
may do a haka on your arse but at least his ancestors weren't convicts lol"
Howz he going to do it on my ass exactly? Seen Māori's do the haka many times never on somes's ass though, is your
friend gay perhaps and puts a lil 'twist' on the haka?? :P Have to take your word for his ancestors not being 'convicts'
.. i can assure you mine weren't either..FYI:- Māori's make up the majority of incarcerated prisoners in Kiwi Jails
and have for many years......might wanna keep a better eye on your keys and wallet
around your "friend" in future :mrgreen: :P

Re: Willow Springs Race June 18th Roll Call

Posted: May 24 2011 6:25am
by dogman dan
Bunch of nerds. I'll buy that. One of em took the trophy. Without nerds, your phone would still be tied to the wall and all this talk would be happening on paper carried across the country. One big part of being a real nerd is not giving a hug what anybody thinks or how you look to others. We're just too busy reinventing the whole world to care about image.

I'm a good example of what happens when a guy just keeps adding power. I simply reached the point where I was garanteed to screw up a corner and take myself out of the race. I wouldn't worry too much about limiting power it finds your limits quick enough. Then you lay er down and yer done. Don't show up high powered if you haven't learned how to lay er down!

But a fun run class is not a bad idea. You need numbers, and guys like me need a place to be once we find our level.

Don't take the rules talk from those who don't actually race too seriously. All good input, but it's your track for the night. You make rules, we try to win within them, or get away with bending em. Your track, your rules. Those who race seem to have a whatever attitude. Tell us what it is, and we'll build to fit what it is.

The whole gasser vs electric thing just adds to the fun. Amberwolf wasn't fast enough to be a big danger out there. His risk to ride that thing. Far less dangerous anyway than my 47 mph ebike was. It wasn't intended to be a group ride down a bike trail.

Re: Willow Springs Race June 18th Roll Call

Posted: May 24 2011 8:31am
by TylerDurden
BiMoPed wrote:You eBikers with your claiming rules and other nonsense would kill anything off.
:lol:

Claimers with random-draw are the fairest (and easiest) way to segment the entrants into classes. Works for gas and electric.

Pedalling 100m in <1min to qualify as a "bicycle" works for gas and electric.

Re: Willow Springs Race June 18th Roll Call

Posted: May 24 2011 1:00pm
by nicobie
TylerDurden wrote:
BiMoPed wrote:You eBikers with your claiming rules and other nonsense would kill anything off.
:lol:

Pedalling 100m in <1min to qualify as a "bicycle" works for gas and electric.
I'm not sure if those numbers are correct...

but it's a damn good idea.

Riders would have to do it with a full charge or a full tank of fuel 8)

Re: Willow Springs Race June 18th Roll Call

Posted: May 24 2011 1:48pm
by Evoforce
First-off, some of us just aren't young anymore and show up with bodies that have weathered (lifes) time trials. Second, Amberwolf was there to enjoy riding the track and I thought we wanted to encourage all riders to show up for the fun. Third, I did not see where his bike is dangerous for street use and he had all of his safety equipment, (although being a recumbent and mysef having no experience riding one) I could wipeout on it anywhere. :oops: Fourth, wouldn't worry about would be rulemakers who haven't ran a motorized bike race or shown up to race at said events. Fifth, I have been classified as many things in my life related to what I was doing,(some good some bad) but riding a lightning bolt around a racetrack as fast as our equipment will go, sounds more to me like Super Charged Daredevils and I might just have to wear a cape, mask, and lycra to this race. Please don't make any rules where we have to wear air conditioned, fireproof, racing suits. Oh, and that bus load of college cheerleaders you're bringing in Friday night, I know your plan is to use them to "drunk us up" to make us sleep through the race day. But, once we expand their imagination with the best batteries on the planet we will let them stradle our power between their legs, "race over" for you guys. :twisted: I'm coming with batteries and throwing caution to the wind for this race! 8)

Re: Willow Springs Race June 18th Roll Call

Posted: May 24 2011 2:36pm
by etard
And this is why you shouldn't get drunk and log into your favorite forum.... Any questions? :mrgreen:

Seriously, if you aren't planning on being at the race, please don't ruin it for those that are.

BiMo,
Thanks for putting this event on and allowing us the chance to join you guys at the race. This is your deal, so call it as you see it. We are a cool bunch of nerds even though we sound a little uptight at times. I was at the DR, and I was really impressed with how cool everybody was, and I hope to reciprocate this sense of community at the Willow Springs event and hopefully all events/races to follow. I think your 11 hp max will be followed by almost everybody out there, and those that don't will be fun to watch screaming across the desert with no brakes. :lol:

Re: Willow Springs Race June 18th Roll Call

Posted: May 24 2011 2:36pm
by TylerDurden
BiMoPed wrote:for the record all gas and electric bikes will have some kind of basic safety inspection.
BiMoPed wrote:Yes, all bikes gas and electric have to have pedals and be pedalable lol. Not quite sure about the details....
BiMoPed wrote:Gas bikes have been limited to no more powerful than a 11 hp single speed Morini. You eBikers should build to a similar level.
BiMoPed wrote:Going to put on one race and see how it goes and adjust the rules from there.
That's almost a good start...


What defines the four classes?

Re: Willow Springs Race June 18th Roll Call

Posted: May 24 2011 2:41pm
by Thud
MAN I wish I could manke this event!

+1 EVO...well said.
Bimoped, defo ignore the yap,yap,yap from here or the motored bike sites from guys who have never been in the pits of any race anywhere...I am grateful for the event & am sending a bike that I will live vicariously through. (that will only peak in the 6hp range but will be more than a handfull for the "higher powerd" morini's, should they get to run together)

As for rules, I don't care. set em up & I will conform...as for classes, even better, I will build as many bikes as I can race in a day, in as many classes as posible....gas or ellectric...I loves me some racing & this is something I can get into. (no one has seen my morini Killin china girl build yet :twisted: ....the motored guys are gonna flame it to death)

As for power, Pauld won on a slower bike, pedaling like an EPO pumping Lance Armstrong. I have his re-pass on dave31 for 2nd place on video showing the determined pedal dance! his bike was dominate in the back sections of track...where the over geared morinis couldn't accelerate. I was watching.

If PaulD had his 100amp controller we are still looking at less than 10 peak HP as measured in watts.

If we are going to talk about racing..the old history is fun, but the days of "street trimed bikes" being competitive are numbered...the BoXers are great bikes....but they will be beaten on Kart tracks by less powerfull bikes, set up for kart tracks. Its inevitable.
T

Re: Willow Springs Race June 18th Roll Call

Posted: May 24 2011 3:34pm
by TylerDurden
BiMoPed wrote:How about answering my question, Are you racing at Willow Springs?
Nope.

So relax, don't give my comments any gravity.

I'm just thinkin ahead... and as you say, you will figure out plenty of rules as time goes on.


BTW, Amberwolf is a bright guy. And a good guy.

Re: Willow Springs Race June 18th Roll Call

Posted: May 24 2011 4:46pm
by Evoforce
So, I think Amberwolf may speak as to his intentions but I can tell you of my observations. He was at the race in October (Undead Race) with the same bike, and did not run the main event by choice, but enjoyed tooling around the track with the rest of us. In the main event, we had a major wreck in turn 2, that took out several riders. Amberwolf was not the cause of this. His ride may not look conventional, but that is his point. In the Death Race, I also don't believe he was going to race the main event either. His bike was every bit as roadworthy as my tail heavy commuter that I had to run in the last 2 racing events because of failure of my race bike(flat tire) first race, and wiring technical problems for the Undead Race. I would have said, (and thought) that my secondary bike(commuter) would not handle well around the tight turns at speed but I was pleasently surprised. Take it for what you will but I rarely have everything working perfectly on anything I own. I know you have a bit of stress setting all of this up, (and we do appreciate it), and I hope you can step back from it a little, take a good deep breath, and not sweat the small stuff. Sincerely.....Ed

P.S. You can throw my last line back at me if you hear me bitching that there weren't any cheerleaders left for me.

Re: Willow Springs Race June 18th Roll Call

Posted: May 24 2011 11:33pm
by amberwolf
Realistically, BiMoPed is mostly right, regarding my participation in the DR just past. I did know I had a problem with the steering shimmy, because of the fork change I had just done that morning (but couldn't undo in time for the race), but thought I could keep control of it at least for the heat race (since I didn't get the chance to try it on practice laps first). I was wrong, and didnt' really find that out until I hit that corner the second time and just couldn't do it.

That's when I crashed and fractured my leg and sprained the ankle badly. (That's one thing BiMoped was misinformed about: I didn't have anything broken before the race, just a nearly-healed lightly sprained ankle that forced me to use my cane).

But everything else on the bike was working fine (apart from the rear wheel being out of true due to the jouncing during transport to the race), and if I had had the original fork on there, I'd've been able to ride without issue for the whole thing, although I sure wouldn't be the fastest rider on the track. ;)

That said, with the steering problems I was having just before the crash, if I had not crashed I probably would have still pulled off and called it quits not much longer after that, though I really wanted to stay on the track and ride. Yet, if I had been sensible, I would not have ridden the bike on the track with others there with the problem I was having, just in case.


Regarding anyone wanting me off the track or even not wanting me to get on in the first place, no one ever said a word to me before I got on the track or after I was off, or flagged me down while on the track that I could see (there were moments when I could only watch for others coming up behind me, like when I was having trouble just before the crash, so I wouldnt' end up trapping anyone into a crash with me).

In fact, the guy (sorry I don't know his name) that helped me off the track when I crashed, asked if I wanted to get back on and keep riding the track, but since I couldn't put the weight on that leg I had to say no and ask him to help me off the track.

If anyone *had* asked me not to get on the track, I wouldn't have, and I'd've left the track if asked, too. So it would've been nice if they'd bothered to tell me. :(


Anyhow, the only issue I have with BiMoPed at all is (by implication) calling me an idiot and a moron, for making the poor choice to ride when I shouldn't have, but I understand his point of view.


In the Undead Race back in October, I had problems with insufficient dropout surface area on a totally different fork, and was afraid the wheel was going to come off, so I quit the track after some practice laps, so I didn't hurt myself or anyone else. The only crash I had then was a skid out in the hairpin turn's gravel outside, on my first time on the track ever. I gather that's not that uncommon there, from what poeple said at the time. On another turn I decided I coudln't make the turn or slow enough quickly enough, and headed out into the gravel, braking in a straight line to prevent another skid/crash, successfully.

Re: Willow Springs Race June 18th Roll Call

Posted: May 25 2011 5:32am
by dogman dan
I can't blame Charlie for wanting to be more careful about what bikes get on the track, I still keep thinking how amazing it is we get on the track at all, with more or less homemade stuff, instead of strictly factory stuff. You are correct that if too many people show up, and hurt themselves because of modifications that weren't race worthy, it could get you kicked off the track in the future.

A basic pass fail of the bikes that show at willow springs makes sense too, and again, you get to set the rules. Something too frankenbike should be allowed only to parade in practice, or even kept off the track if too wierd looking to you. Wheels need to be pretty straight, and funky headset angles can be a problem, as AW found. He'd put a shock fork on a frame meant for a shorter fork.

Another issue making his night complicated was arriving too late to practice, so he ended up jumping into a heat race. Something you might consider not allowing, particularly since 90% of us may not be experienced racers. Personally, I find the practice laps cruical. It's just not like street riding out there.

But do post the criteria ahead of time, so nobody shows up with a fairly good bike, only to fail because you don't like the handlebars.

Above all, I'd rate safety gear as high in importance, AW was wearing plenty. One think I think I saw too much of at the track was tennis shoes. I was a bit suprised that some kind of boots was not required. When you do lay er down, you often stick your foot into a hot place, or get some grinding between the bike and the pavement. When I crashed at the DR, I felt like I landed on a wrestling mat since I had on an armored riding jacket, extra pants under the armored pants, boots, carbon knuckle gloves and a motorcycle helmet. I did a nice grind on one glove, but the carbon knuckles worked great on that glove.

Bikes got broke, but neither myself or the rider I slid into were hurt one bit. He was also well dressed.

Again, since I can't make it, feel free to put my comments in the ignore bin. Have a fun event, and above all, try to make putting it on fun too. I've helped organize some big events too, and I know how stressful it can be.

Re: Willow Springs Race June 18th Roll Call

Posted: May 27 2011 11:45pm
by SoSauty
Found another element of excitement for our Willow Springs Race; under 'historical marker' search and lo behold, we'll be in the company of moto road racers on June 18th! There's a set of bleachers on the NorthWest hi-end of the kart track which also happens to be right next to the big Grand Prix roadracing track (I believe, there are 2 big tracks). From this great location, we can watch both motored bike and moto races at the same time :!: No need to take in the nearby Feline Conservatory with all the Pros around :P Read this sign:
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