Ross' bike pusher (trailer) project...

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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rossfree   100 mW

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Ross' bike pusher (trailer) project...

Post by rossfree » Dec 03 2007 6:45am

Hi all,

I'm a newbie... and love to start things I never finish! Ha!

I'm dieing to build an EV bike but for getting my feet wet and keeping costs low I've gone the pusher route. I've not found very many projects using the pusher and that surprised me. Would love to see a video of someone using one. Any links?

So here's the plan:

MY1070 Motor 36volt 750 watt
(2) 24 volt 75 amp/hr deep cell marine batts from Wally-world
16" wheels taken from a CHEAP kids bicycle... the bearings won't last.

I plan to over-volt the motor with 48 volts. Only one wheel will be driven on the trailer. Two sprocket drive (no secondary reduction).

So far I have about $230 in the project. I still need two sprockets, chain, motor controller and BRAKES BRAKES BRAKES!!!

I worked on this on Saturday. Bought some additional steel at Home Depot, did a CAD layout at work and cut the steel on their band-saw, and tack welded the frame together when I got home. Not bad for a days' work! :-)

Except I tacked the battery frame on the opposite side... have to move that. :-[

I've attached some CAD views below. They are VERY rudimentary but allowed me to get started.

The motor came with a #25 - 11th sprocket. If I wanted the pusher to go 30mph I would want a 4:1 ratio. I'm not sure if I want it to go that fast (not even sure it could push me). And this is where I would like some of your thoughts. I know I would like a larger sprocket on the motor anyway. Something in the range of 20 or more teeth to hold down wear and noise.

What ratio do you guys recommend for the sprockets and what size chain. Is #25 ok or should I use #35.

Second... can you recommend a controller that's reasonably affordable. The choices are daunting. I'll even consider one that might require modifications. I'm capable and have some electronics background. (this is a poor man's first project).

and Third... I have an inexpensive 26" bike with lousy breaks. Are there any reasonable generic kits for putting better brakes on bikes? I know this is a big issue for me.

Would love your comments and advise. I would like this to work first time out with a minimum of upgrades later... seems like I spend a lot of money replacing things that I should have just bought in the beginning.

Remember I'm a newbie... be gentle. :-)

6" of snow just fell outside... I have a little time to work on this thing! Bother!

Ross
Attachments
EV Pusher Top View.JPG
EV Pusher Top View.JPG (49.06 KiB) Viewed 6631 times
EV Pusher Side View.JPG
EV Pusher Side View.JPG (63.18 KiB) Viewed 6632 times
EV Pusher Front View.JPG
EV Pusher Front View.JPG (38.95 KiB) Viewed 6623 times
EV Pusher Front Corner View.JPG
EV Pusher Front Corner View.JPG (59.77 KiB) Viewed 6623 times

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diver   1 kW

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Post by diver » Dec 03 2007 9:03am

hi, newbie here. I am thinking the same thing and using a old golf cart motor with a 48 volt programmable controller. i have the controller and the twist throttle for the handle bars. I will watch this close.
thanks butch

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Miles   100 GW

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Post by Miles » Dec 03 2007 11:09am

Hi Ross,

A chain running that fast will wear rapidly - it would be a good move to make an enclosure for it.

The smaller pitch #25 chain will run more smoothly and be quieter but will wear quicker than #35

How about 16t to 90t using heavy duty #25 chain? This will get you to about 25 mph...

Here's a reference on chains: http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tables/ ... chain.html

Source for sprockets: http://www.electricscooterparts.com/sprockets.html

Here's a power calculator (scroll down to 3rd version): http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=538

Miles

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iberkt   10 W

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Post by iberkt » Dec 03 2007 12:21pm

Miles wrote:Source for sprockets: http://www.electricscooterparts.com/sprockets.html
This is good for the #25 sprokets but if you want to go up to the #35 they don't have much.

You can look at Robot Marketplace they have sprockets for #25, #35, and #40 chains.

http://www.robotmarketplace.com/marketp ... ckets.html

They also have the #25, #35, #40, #50 roller chains.

http://www.robotmarketplace.com/marketplace_chain.html

Just for as a guide look at the size difference of the chains
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If I have seen farther it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants (Sir Isaac Newton).

Thanks
iberkt

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vanilla ice   100 MW

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Post by vanilla ice » Dec 03 2007 12:36pm

You can get the chain speed down by using a 9, 10 or 11t sprocket on the motor, but I'm not clear on whether its worth doing this or not. The sharp turn the chain has to make is not good either.

I don't think theres such a thing as a generic cheap brake kit. I think pulling off a cheap donor bike is the most inexpensive way?

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Miles   100 GW

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Post by Miles » Dec 03 2007 1:05pm

If you need something bigger than #25 I would use #219 chain and go-kart parts: http://www.accelerationkarting.com/219.html

Best to use a drive sprocket 16t or greater - as you mention, smaller sprockets wear the chain quicker and are less efficient - linear chain speed goes up with the drive sprocket size, though....

The Extron "kevlar" sprockets might be good to keep the noise down a bit...

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Miles   100 GW

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Post by Miles » Dec 03 2007 2:43pm


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rossfree   100 mW

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Post by rossfree » Dec 03 2007 2:48pm

Thanks for all the great feedback ya'll! I'm leanin towards the #25 for now with a 20 or so tooth sprocket. I'm kicking myself for not getting the 600 watt motor with gear reduction. That would have put this issue to bed right quick. But I wanted POWER. :-)

I like the HTD timming belt reduction that some have done. A bit more complicated and added expense of the pullies, belt, bearings and framework.

Can someone recommend a reasonable motor controller for 48 volts and say 40 to 60 amps?

Thanks for the feedback!

Ross
I tried being normal once... I didn't like it.

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vanilla ice   100 MW

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Post by vanilla ice » Dec 03 2007 3:01pm

TNC has one for $35, but as others have pointed out the amp rating is likely overstated when you look at the components. Still a good buy I think.

For the easiest/cheapest way to do a one wheel trailer, I still think buying a used razor dirt bike from the classifieds, and using it as a base to build from, is a good option. Provided you can find a good deal on one, which shouldn't be too hard.

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iberkt   10 W

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Post by iberkt » Dec 03 2007 5:28pm

vanilla ice wrote:TNC has one for $35, but as others have pointed out the amp rating is likely overstated when you look at the components. Still a good buy I think.
Do you mean this one?

http://tncscooters.com/product.php?sku=101210

LB37 - Technical Parameters
Rated Voltage 48 Volts
Rated Current 10 - 50 Amps
Rated Motor 800 - 1500 Watts
Rated Charger ≤ 3.0 Amps
Conversion Efficency 95%
Under Voltage Protection 41.0± 1.0 Volts
Speed Control Available
(Twist or Thumb Throttle) Hall Effect
Dimensions 11.1 cm x 6.9 cm x 3.8 cm
If I have seen farther it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants (Sir Isaac Newton).

Thanks
iberkt

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vanilla ice   100 MW

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Post by vanilla ice » Dec 03 2007 5:59pm

Yes that one, and I think there is one more. The other one that says 100amps max is the one I meant that is probably not rated realistically. I was thinking about getting one of these TNC controllers too because my Currie controller doesn't work over 36v.

wetdog   10 µW

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Post by wetdog » Dec 03 2007 7:24pm

chain
http://www.surpluscenter.com/powerTrans ... powerTrans
the 44 inch #25 chain is #25H and is loop, 88 inches of chain

sprockets
http://www.mcmaster.com/

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rossfree   100 mW

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Post by rossfree » Dec 04 2007 12:31pm

Thanks again for all of the feedback.

So... I've made a change. It was really bugging me that the motor would be turning at 2800 rpm, creating noise and wearing out my chain. Sooooo... I purchased a MY1020Z3 gear motor. A little less power but about 500 rpm output. Much nicer to work with. I really want a quiet ride.

I have ordered the $35 LB37 Yi-Yun 48v controller from tncscooters. com and a thumb-type speed controller.

Presently I'm trying to select the sprockets... I'd really like 30mph but don't know if I'm pushing safety/motor loads... etc. :-I I have a few hills but don't mind pedaling here and there. I'd also like to put a slightly larger sprocket on the motor. I think an 18tooth on the motor will give me room to play with speed up or down.

I'm looking to order Bulldog brakes for the bike. I've heard they work pretty well. Still... would be nice if the motor could do some braking for me and take some inertial forces out of the trailer. I might look into that.

I have really really cheap wheels for the trailer. I don't mind that but worry that the bearings might wear out prematurely. Any thoughts? I have my eyes open for a beafier 16" bike second-hand.

I hope to finish up the frame and get the wheels mounted tonight... still have to wait for the motor.

I've been trying to absorb the huge amount of information available in the forums here. It's daunting! I do wish the search engine would allow me to only search in the subject line instead of bringing back posts with my search word buried in some ten or twenty pages. Still... awesome website!

More pics as I get them...

Thanks for the feeback!

Ross
I tried being normal once... I didn't like it.

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vanilla ice   100 MW

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Post by vanilla ice » Dec 05 2007 3:38pm

I have a different unite geared motor, the 1018z, but I can tell you its loud. In fact my non-geared unite is much quieter at the same motor rpm, even though the chain speed is much higher.

Miles, whats the compatibility of the #219 chain, and what are the power limits? Is it the same pitch and roller diameter as #25 just thicker side plates? That would open up that selection of rear sprockets for the guys running #25. For example on motorcycles IIRC you can run 520 sprockets with 530 chain. I found this:

<i>The first two numbers in a chain size are the length and width of the link in increments of 1/8. So a 530 chain is 5/8 long and 3/8 wide, and 520 chain is 5/8 long and 2/8 (1/4) wide. It only gets a little complicated with say a 525 chain. This chain is 5/8 long and 2.5/8 (two and a half 1/8's) wide----which figures out to 5/16.</i>

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Post by jerryt » Dec 05 2007 4:47pm

I believe it was Xyster who suggested using the Google search engine.

1.Use the "advance" search
2.Ttpe in what you want
3.Use the "domain" feature and paste in
http://endless-sphere.com (or any of the forum categories)
as the place to search

You may be able to fine tune it to what you are looking for
Regards,
Jerry

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fechter   100 GW

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Post by fechter » Dec 05 2007 5:03pm

Another helpful tip when using the forum search function is if you want to search more than one keyword like "cheap motors" you need to put the word "and" between them. Like "cheap and motors". This will give much better results.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Miles   100 GW

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Post by Miles » Dec 06 2007 3:43am

vanilla ice wrote: Miles, whats the compatibility of the #219 chain, and what are the power limits? Is it the same pitch and roller diameter as #25 just thicker side plates? That would open up that selection of rear sprockets for the guys running #25. For example on motorcycles IIRC you can run 520 sprockets with 530 chain. I found this:
vanilla,

#219 chain is only compatible with #219 sprockets. The pitch is in between #25 and #35 (.306"), but the chain is pretty beefy. It's used a lot on go-karts, so there's a reasonable selection of sprockets available - certainly up to 100t.

Metric approximates for different chain pitches:

#25--6.35mm
#219--7.77mm
#35--9.53mm

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rossfree   100 mW

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Post by rossfree » Dec 06 2007 9:38am

I'm surprised to hear that gear motors can be as noisy. Well... not surprised... more annoyed than surprised. :-( I was going to sell the other motor back on ebay. Now I'll have to wait and see.

I did find some single throw 48volt 600amp contactors on ebay. Three for $30 with shipping. I wanted a sure way to disconnect the batteries if anything went wrong. And I intend to use one (maybe the same one with a wire move) to provide a limp mode that bypasses the controller should it burn up ten miles from the house.

Can someone that uses the MY1020Z3 gear motor give me feedback on noise? Just how noisy is this thing and has anyone done anything to quiet it down? Is it just poor gear mesh or lack of proper lubrication? Would like your comments.

Thanks also for the tips on searching... I forgot that I could use the google engine. That should help a lot.

Waiting on the motor, controller... and other stuff.

I'm working on the design of the connection to the bike frame. Happy with how that's going. Need measurements on the frame to CAD that up.

More pics soon.

Ross
I tried being normal once... I didn't like it.

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Post by TylerDurden » Dec 06 2007 9:54am

rossfree wrote:Can someone that uses the MY1020Z3 gear motor give me feedback on noise? Just how noisy is this thing and has anyone done anything to quiet it down? Is it just poor gear mesh or lack of proper lubrication?
I have the MY1018. It sounds like a 110V electric drill at medium/slow speed. It's mostly because of the straight-cut gears. One member got theirs to quiet-down by adjusting the cover on the gearcase, but it's hit-or miss... some just won't ever sound better.

:?
Have a Nice Day,

TD

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vanilla ice   100 MW

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Post by vanilla ice » Dec 06 2007 12:01pm

Thats too bad about the sprockets. Yeah I saw all those cheap light strong LARGE tooth count sprockets available and started salivating. When I saw #219 #25 I figured it might be like the #40 #41 420 group, and the group of 520 525 530 where width was the only difference.

My geared motor is like 5x louder at 36v than at 24. So if you want to keep the noise down, don't count on over-volting at all. The gear design on the 1016z should be the same as the 1018z, but maybe you'll get lucky and get a quiet one. I think Reid had ATF in his gear box. Maybe thats the trick?

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rossfree   100 mW

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Post by rossfree » Dec 06 2007 1:44pm

Good thought... maybe gear oil or STP would do the trick.

OH MY GOSH! :shock:

Did I just say STP???!!!

** cowering behind the sofa **

Ross
I tried being normal once... I didn't like it.

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rossfree   100 mW

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Post by rossfree » Dec 06 2007 1:44pm

Good thought... maybe gear oil or STP would do the trick.

OH MY GOSH! :shock:

Did I just say STP???!!!

** cowering behind the sofa **

Ross
I tried being normal once... I didn't like it.

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rossfree   100 mW

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Post by rossfree » Dec 07 2007 9:27am

Hi all,

I designed the bike attachment for the Pusher. The arm will be a "dog-legged" 3/4" sq tube (not shown in pics) that will be welded to the long nut shown in the pics. The nut, flat to flat, fits nicely in the square tube but point to point interferes. So I will slot the end of the square tube with a cutting disk. That should allow me to tap the nut into the end of the tube and weld it in place.

I'm pretty happy with the overall design. It gives the trailer six degrees of movement. My focus was to make it simple with only a few machined parts and readily available components. I couldn't find a swing-eye bolt so I picked up a 3/8" ID collar and I'm going to weld it to the end of a 1/2-20 UNF Hex Head bolt. I'll grind off most of the bolt head first so that it does not interfere with the attachment point. The bolt then gets screwed into the end of the welded pipe/nut assy. I'll grease it up first and then screw it in most of the way. The nut and bold provide the third pivotal axis.

**I pats myself on the back**

I've made an AVI file (about 8meg) with cam studio to show how it pivots. For those interested I will send by email... just leave an email address for me. It shows the components going throught their various axial movements.

Oh... and one last thing. This assembly obviously clamps to the "V" frame hub support on the rear wheel. But the frame tubes on the bike are tapered and it would be difficult to machine a nice fit... sooooo... I've designed the two grooves on the clamp blocks to be oversize. I'm gonna fill the two grooves in each clamp block with epoxy putty and then loosely clamp it together leaving room to allow tighter clamping later when the epoxy is fully cured. I'll use nylock nuts (not shown) on the bolts that clamp it all in place. 8)

Here's the pictures...

Ross
Attachments
Bike Attachment Front ISO View.JPG
Bike Attachment Front ISO View.JPG (29.74 KiB) Viewed 4987 times
Bike Attachment Top View.JPG
Bike Attachment Top View.JPG (16.38 KiB) Viewed 4988 times
Bike Attachment Back ISO View.JPG
Bike Attachment Back ISO View.JPG (27.16 KiB) Viewed 4994 times
I tried being normal once... I didn't like it.

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rossfree   100 mW

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Post by rossfree » Dec 07 2007 2:11pm

A couple more pics... showing the trailer and bike attachment assy together...
I tried being normal once... I didn't like it.

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Rassy   10 MW

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Post by Rassy » Dec 07 2007 2:47pm

rossfree, I like it. Your basic trailer frame is a real nice version of my original two wheel trailer, except I used two hub motors for power. I am going to keep a picture of your hitch for future reference. I originally used a steering knuckle from a lawn tractor with 3/8" studs. It worked good, but required a wrench to disconnect the trailer. I replaced it with the same sized ball and socket with a spring loaded slip collar for disconnect. These are made to hook a trolling motor to the main outboard so that they steer together.

I added a roller on the trailer tongue that would engage the rear bike tire on a hard right turn. It only made contact a few times, but once was in an emergency to avoid a car, and I think it helped me maintain control. :D
-Rassy-

Two Delta Trikes equipped with a Bafang BBS02
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=88536&p=1291260#p1291260

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