Best Full Suspension ebike Frames?

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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John and Cecil   1 kW

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Re: Best Full Suspension ebike Frames?

Post by John and Cecil » Apr 18 2018 8:59am

We like our Raleigh kodiak plus tire full suspension bike. I don't know if you can still get them though, Raleigh discontinued them and we got ours brand new for $600 delivered and assembled by Beeline. There is not much room inside the frame for a battery, but we have a rack on the back of ours and it extends further back because Cecil needs more space behind me. Since we are always carrying 35lbs over the rear half of the rear tire carrying a 10-15lb battery over the front wheel will probably actually help with weight distribution. Right now we are carrying a 5lb battery in the handlebar bag and I don't even know it is there. A battery could probably be mounted to the lower frame too provided it was short enough to not interfere with the front wheel. I really love the mid-fat plus tires!

DSCN2895.JPG

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Re: Best Full Suspension ebike Frames?

Post by qwerkus » Apr 18 2018 4:24pm

Anyone tried to convert one of these:

Image

Probably not the best shock design, and not the biggest triangle - but hey: this frame is just screaming to get a battery, don't you think ?

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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: Best Full Suspension ebike Frames?

Post by Chalo » Apr 18 2018 5:29pm

qwerkus wrote:
Apr 18 2018 4:24pm
Image

Probably not the best shock design, and not the biggest triangle - but hey: this frame is just screaming to get a battery, don't you think ?
Sure, like these:

Image
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: Best Full Suspension ebike Frames?

Post by torker » Apr 18 2018 7:31pm

My old FSR has worked out well for me. Next I want to fab a somewhat triangle shaped mount for the battery to be able to move it up some. Add some rivnuts to mount the bracket. Right now it is mounted to the stock waterbottle bosses. Also I run 24 " on the front which gives me plenty of room.

I have lost my avatar and cannot get it back or add pics right now ??
bike 2018 1.jpg
Yay ! now time to get my avatar back :)
Last edited by torker on Apr 18 2018 8:21pm, edited 1 time in total.
Dave When I die I want to slide in sideways yelling WooHoo what a ride !

Giant Rincon w rear 9C 6*10 10s Lipo 30+ amps
Specialized FSR Comp 9C 6*10 15s x 50A 3300 W :)
http://s18.photobucket.com/user/rolinfu ... t=3&page=1

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motomech   1 GW

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Re: Best Full Suspension ebike Frames?

Post by motomech » Apr 18 2018 8:21pm

qwerkus wrote:
Apr 18 2018 4:24pm
Anyone tried to convert one of these:

Image

Probably not the best shock design, and not the biggest triangle - but hey: this frame is just screaming to get a battery, don't you think ?
The Fox air shock and linkage is the best thing about that bike.

I use LiPoly and w/ it, that frame provides plenty of room for mounting batteries. This is my GT Idrive;
SAM_1216.JPG
There's 10,400 mAh's of 14S (54.6 V) packed into the small frame bag;
SAM_1214.JPG
The sm. home made "bottle" battery holds another 4,000 mAH, for a total of 14,4000 mAh's, or over 20 miles of range.

The FSR has bottle mounting bosses on both the top and bottom of the downtube and maybe a guy could squeeze a "Shark" battery in the center space and I'm pretty sure one could mount under the downtube w/out fouling the frt. tire.
Motomech

'03 Rocky Mountain Edge 2WD 260 Q100H frt and Ezee V1 rear 2 Elifebike 20A & 25A 9-FET controllers 12S/10Ah Multistar Lipo rear 4Ah Turnigy frt Luna Cyclops Extra lite Alex 24DM rims, Crazy Bobs run ghetto tubeless. 25 mph. Mean Well HLG-320H-54A
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=83430
'07 GT Idive 4 4.0, Q100C 201 14S LiPoly elifebike 9-FET 20A controller. 23 MPH.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 4#p1378484

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Re: Best Full Suspension ebike Frames?

Post by qwerkus » Apr 19 2018 2:05am

motomech wrote:
Apr 18 2018 8:21pm
The Fox air shock and linkage is the best thing about that bike.
I'm not a MTB specialist, but I think the following linkage design is stronger and less hard on shocks.

Image

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Re: Best Full Suspension ebike Frames?

Post by motomech » Apr 19 2018 9:07am

No doubt, but we are talking street bikes here where the the worse thing to be encountered are potholes. As long as the first few inches are supple, the ride is good. The thing about air shocks is, the air spring is progressive by nature and even if they are run w/ too little air pressure, they don't bottom out hard and won't damage the shock.
My 2003 Rocky Mountain uses a linkage that has very little rising rate and since I weigh 250 Lb.s, I did experience a situation where if I kept the ride supple, I would bottom out occasionally.
2003-Rocky-Mountain-Edge.jpg
2003-Rocky-Mountain-Edge.jpg (44.1 KiB) Viewed 1473 times
I added Fox's "heavy weight rider's" Tuning Kit. Basicly, it was several different size plastic pieces that look like little floats;
55_1024x1024.jpg
55_1024x1024.jpg (112.9 KiB) Viewed 1476 times
W/ one Installed in the shock body, it displaces air volume and increases the last few inches rate of resistance. the different sizes allows tuning.;
32-34-air-spring-curves.jpg
32-34-air-spring-curves.jpg (93.89 KiB) Viewed 1332 times
5 inches of travel even if the rate of progression is less than optimal, is still 5 inches of travel and it works great on the street and I think not having the most progressive rising rate, if the system gives the most all important space for batteries, is a worthwhile trade-off.
Motomech

'03 Rocky Mountain Edge 2WD 260 Q100H frt and Ezee V1 rear 2 Elifebike 20A & 25A 9-FET controllers 12S/10Ah Multistar Lipo rear 4Ah Turnigy frt Luna Cyclops Extra lite Alex 24DM rims, Crazy Bobs run ghetto tubeless. 25 mph. Mean Well HLG-320H-54A
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=83430
'07 GT Idive 4 4.0, Q100C 201 14S LiPoly elifebike 9-FET 20A controller. 23 MPH.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 4#p1378484

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Re: Best Full Suspension ebike Frames?

Post by qwerkus » Apr 21 2018 2:35am

Thanks for the explanations motomech. Does anyone know a fully design that works even with a trailer ?

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Re: Best Full Suspension ebike Frames?

Post by Cpt.Cream » Apr 21 2018 3:07am

you can upgrade suspension on (almost) any bike frame, all you have to do is measure and maybe get a little creative with mounting hardware. most frames with suspension are pretty easy to deal with and while people might look at you funny (including in this forum based on how i was received in my intro) it will work just as good as you make it. so if you don't mind the extra work choose whatever frame ya want then make it act the way ya want.

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Re: Best Full Suspension ebike Frames?

Post by motomech » Apr 21 2018 9:36am

qwerkus wrote:
Apr 21 2018 2:35am
Thanks for the explanations motomech. Does anyone know a fully design that works even with a trailer ?
I have a trailer, but it is a travoy(travios) type and the hitch is on the seat post;

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... r#p1341690
Motomech

'03 Rocky Mountain Edge 2WD 260 Q100H frt and Ezee V1 rear 2 Elifebike 20A & 25A 9-FET controllers 12S/10Ah Multistar Lipo rear 4Ah Turnigy frt Luna Cyclops Extra lite Alex 24DM rims, Crazy Bobs run ghetto tubeless. 25 mph. Mean Well HLG-320H-54A
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=83430
'07 GT Idive 4 4.0, Q100C 201 14S LiPoly elifebike 9-FET 20A controller. 23 MPH.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 4#p1378484

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Re: Best Full Suspension ebike Frames?

Post by torker » Apr 21 2018 12:04pm

Cpt.Cream wrote:
Apr 21 2018 3:07am
you can upgrade suspension on (almost) any bike frame, all you have to do is measure and maybe get a little creative with mounting hardware. most frames with suspension are pretty easy to deal with and while people might look at you funny (including in this forum based on how i was received in my intro) it will work just as good as you make it. so if you don't mind the extra work choose whatever frame ya want then make it act the way ya want.
Without getting off topic hopefully. I want to retrofit a longer shock on my FSR . There is room in the channel to move up and drill another hole . What are the downfall/probs with doing this? This is not much avail. in the size I have now.
I will search or start another thread if I am getting off topic too much.
Dave When I die I want to slide in sideways yelling WooHoo what a ride !

Giant Rincon w rear 9C 6*10 10s Lipo 30+ amps
Specialized FSR Comp 9C 6*10 15s x 50A 3300 W :)
http://s18.photobucket.com/user/rolinfu ... t=3&page=1

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methods   10 GW

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Re: Best Full Suspension ebike Frames?

Post by methods » May 13 2018 10:07am

qwerkus wrote:
Apr 18 2018 4:24pm
Anyone tried to convert one of these:

Image

Probably not the best shock design, and not the biggest triangle - but hey: this frame is just screaming to get a battery, don't you think ?
We picked one up cheap last week for $200 from a guy who does the bike circuit.
Every component is hammered... but it survived.

That was one of the first years they had disks - so they still have the mounts for non-disk... which is useful.

Yesterday we put together 4pcs 30C 6S hobby king (kindly donated by a former Zero Employee)

Rebuilding the rear shock today - blown out blown out!
Juicy 5s must be disassembled, cleaned, flushed
All the gears need to be re-corded or tended to

Light bike

Wiring the batteries S then P. . .
Using Anderson PP45's
So it can be run @ 12S 5AH or 12S 10AH (lady friend needs a bike she can get into the back of the Runner)

As for all my other ebikes?

Stoked a guy on Craigs List by giving him everything I had
Kona Stinky & pile of replacement parts and tools. . .
So I am starting fresh.

Going to go to the "Santa Cruz Bike Church" to borrow some of their tools (I dropped off all my Park tools there some years back)
Bike Church is RAD. . . like having a high end bike shop where you can just walk to the back and use the tools*

In other news

Santa Cruz rolled out the Rental Ebikes this week.
Pedal assist @ $2 / 30min then $4.20/hr after that

City painted green lanes all over the place (SOME VERY POORLY THOUGHT OUT - like... Opposing Traffic!?!?!)
But progress is happening here.

Back on topic
Yes - Full Suspension for the win EVERY TIME
It is safer and more comfortable
First time you get squirly at 35mph you will understand. . . . . . . .

"You need to be able to hit a bump, pot hole, or a curb and pull it off"

Front hubs are all I have laying around
This bike has a removable (presumably 9mm>) skewer up front
Instead of angle grinding that out and fixing with a torque arm I am going to steal Justins prototype motor and just bolt it in. Comes with some monster torque arms. Light motor but very loud - needs to find its resonant frequency and dampen it. Should be easy enough.

New Subject

Since separating my shoulder I have been a little more careful (but not much).
Going to put my trike back on the road - but need to adapt a front hub to the rear to do it (make due, learn something)
It wont pedal - but I dont pedal anyway. . .

New Subject

2 weeks ago on a Sunday in Santa Cruz
Between Sea-bright Beach and Down Town
We counted MORE ebikes than Pedal bikes!!!!

~6/7 ebikes for every straight pedaler (EDIT: 6/7 Ebikes for every 5 pedal bikes)

Few hub motors - 1 or 2
Mostly mid-drive
Mostly professionally built (COTS item)
All on and off trails and roads

About 1 in 3 jamming (above 20mph)
Most just assisting (350W?) old couples on the bike paths
(YEA - old people riding ebikes instead of being rocked on prescription pills and watching CNN!!!)

Until next time
On Adventure

-methods

P.S.
I have laid out ~10 PCB boards in the last month or three so I am fresh.
If any contributing member needs something thrown together I am happy to do it free of charge as payment to the community.

I use Eagle PCB and cut FR4 at OSH Park
I can start a layout for you, set your net rules, pull your air wires, make it AutoRoute in a useful way. . .

I can send you a finished BRD that you can just enter into OSH and have boards in a week

I can do a short run

I left at least 20 people hanging on the HVC Breaker V2 . . .
(Never went into production. Got into a divorce and hairy startups instead)

Lately I have grown an erection for RYOBI tool packs
I buy them dead at the fleamarket, open up, balance, add an Anderson pigtail, put back into service

If anyone wants to do something around that "standard" I am very interested.
18650's. . . Or just the plug adapter (gutted) with Lipo pouch taped on

We have everything running on 5S over here
The used tools (drills, weed wackers, etc) sell for nothing at the Flea Market
Everybody wants the Makita and DeWalt - Ryobi is free for the taking!!

END
Increasing battery voltage and controller current limit will result in a non linear experience

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Re: Best Full Suspension ebike Frames?

Post by qwerkus » May 13 2018 11:34am

methods wrote:
May 13 2018 10:07am
qwerkus wrote:
Apr 18 2018 4:24pm
Anyone tried to convert one of these:

Image

Probably not the best shock design, and not the biggest triangle - but hey: this frame is just screaming to get a battery, don't you think ?
We picked one up cheap last week for $200 from a guy who does the bike circuit.
Every component is hammered... but it survived.

That was one of the first years they had disks - so they still have the mounts for non-disk... which is useful.

Yesterday we put together 4pcs 30C 6S hobby king (kindly donated by a former Zero Employee)

Rebuilding the rear shock today - blown out blown out!
Juicy 5s must be disassembled, cleaned, flushed
All the gears need to be re-corded or tended to

Light bike

Wiring the batteries S then P. . .
Using Anderson PP45's
So it can be run @ 12S 5AH or 12S 10AH (lady friend needs a bike she can get into the back of the Runner)

As for all my other ebikes?

Stoked a guy on Craigs List by giving him everything I had
Kona Stinky & pile of replacement parts and tools. . .
So I am starting fresh.

Going to go to the "Santa Cruz Bike Church" to borrow some of their tools (I dropped off all my Park tools there some years back)
Bike Church is RAD. . . like having a high end bike shop where you can just walk to the back and use the tools*

In other news

Santa Cruz rolled out the Rental Ebikes this week.
Pedal assist @ $2 / 30min then $4.20/hr after that

City painted green lanes all over the place (SOME VERY POORLY THOUGHT OUT - like... Opposing Traffic!?!?!)
But progress is happening here.

Back on topic
Yes - Full Suspension for the win EVERY TIME
It is safer and more comfortable
First time you get squirly at 35mph you will understand. . . . . . . .

"You need to be able to hit a bump, pot hole, or a curb and pull it off"

Front hubs are all I have laying around
This bike has a removable (presumably 9mm>) skewer up front
Instead of angle grinding that out and fixing with a torque arm I am going to steal Justins prototype motor and just bolt it in. Comes with some monster torque arms. Light motor but very loud - needs to find its resonant frequency and dampen it. Should be easy enough.

New Subject

Since separating my shoulder I have been a little more careful (but not much).
Going to put my trike back on the road - but need to adapt a front hub to the rear to do it (make due, learn something)
It wont pedal - but I dont pedal anyway. . .

New Subject

2 weeks ago on a Sunday in Santa Cruz
Between Sea-bright Beach and Down Town
We counted MORE ebikes than Pedal bikes!!!!

~6/7 ebikes for every straight pedaler (EDIT: 6/7 Ebikes for every 5 pedal bikes)

Few hub motors - 1 or 2
Mostly mid-drive
Mostly professionally built (COTS item)
All on and off trails and roads

About 1 in 3 jamming (above 20mph)
Most just assisting (350W?) old couples on the bike paths
(YEA - old people riding ebikes instead of being rocked on prescription pills and watching CNN!!!)

Until next time
On Adventure

-methods

P.S.
I have laid out ~10 PCB boards in the last month or three so I am fresh.
If any contributing member needs something thrown together I am happy to do it free of charge as payment to the community.

I use Eagle PCB and cut FR4 at OSH Park
I can start a layout for you, set your net rules, pull your air wires, make it AutoRoute in a useful way. . .

I can send you a finished BRD that you can just enter into OSH and have boards in a week

I can do a short run

I left at least 20 people hanging on the HVC Breaker V2 . . .
(Never went into production. Got into a divorce and hairy startups instead)

Lately I have grown an erection for RYOBI tool packs
I buy them dead at the fleamarket, open up, balance, add an Anderson pigtail, put back into service

If anyone wants to do something around that "standard" I am very interested.
18650's. . . Or just the plug adapter (gutted) with Lipo pouch taped on

We have everything running on 5S over here
The used tools (drills, weed wackers, etc) sell for nothing at the Flea Market
Everybody wants the Makita and DeWalt - Ryobi is free for the taking!!

END
Thanks for the feedback methods; any picture on you conversion. I just got an old enduro fsr too, albight a bit more expensive. But it came with disc brake which is nice (even though there is a strange adapter bar nearly the size of the seat stay...) Wondering how to mout a nice triangle into that frame. I'm seriously considering just gluing two large pannel with some spacer directly onto the frame. The battery itself would be held by the bottle screws anyway...

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Re: Best Full Suspension ebike Frames?

Post by methods » May 13 2018 11:37am

The bike is in the back yard
Batteries on my desk
Happy to take pics (always do) and post them

We are stuffing duct tape modulars into that little triangle
Have not done a fit test yet

First tho -
I am behind at work and need to lay out a SPST relay board
Must be done before I wake up on Monday Morning :?

I will post progress pics to this thread.

-methods
Increasing battery voltage and controller current limit will result in a non linear experience

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Re: Best Full Suspension ebike Frames?

Post by methods » May 13 2018 11:59am

Build Pics - as requested
20180512_092001-1328x747.jpg
20180512_092001-1328x747.jpg (139.67 KiB) Viewed 1272 times
These days I am doing more "living art" work (and paying professional work) than hobby work.
We have been collecting moss and succulents and making sweet little decorative things.

We are also on a big "Art Project" involving "Life Proofs"
Topic for another time
20180513_093803-1328x747.jpg
20180513_093803-1328x747.jpg (174.23 KiB) Viewed 1272 times
I ran thru the packs and balanced all of the 6S modules against eachother
Used a DCS60 Rack Mount Power Supply
60VDC 18ADC

Also used an iCharger 208b - thing is a battle ax from back in the day.

Now...
Physically linking the batteries (as seen above) does not actually balance them very quickly
Out of habit tho - I parallel the packs down to the cell level and let them sit there for a few days (just because I am old and slow now)

In the background you can see a small side table
It cost $2 at GoodWill and has a glass top
I put in a false bottom and we filled that with "found treasure"
Good project to do with the ol' lady. . . . :wink:

Gets you out on a wild adventure
Gives you something to show for it
Acts as a placeholder for future activities
20180513_093824-1328x747.jpg
Here is the bike
Note I have the rear shock removed

You can see the mounts for the non-disk brakes
I HATE non hydraulic disk brakes... BUT...
I LOVE ebike kits that I get for $100...
and I REQUIRE both front and rear brakes - so... clamps it is sometimes

(She gets the good disk brakes, I get the jenkum brakes :)
20180513_093841-1328x747.jpg
20180513_093841-1328x747.jpg (166.2 KiB) Viewed 1272 times
I watched a quick video on rebuilding these
Not trivial - lots of bits - but not rocket science

This one is blown to hell
Lock it out if I have to
PISSED that I just gave away my last two real shocks (sigh, always that way) - they were the spring over type

Oh well
What goes around comes around

The Fox factory is a few miles away
Maybe I can work something out :mrgreen:
20180513_093904-1328x747.jpg
20180513_093904-1328x747.jpg (242.76 KiB) Viewed 1272 times
This is that prototype that Justin rode over from Vancouver the other year.
4 years ago? 5 years ago?

Well... I left it out in a rain forest (literally) for 5 years
I detect no difference in operation

The controller (some Jenkum) from Ebay that Matthew found long ago...
Was left out there with it

It is actually a pretty solid controller. Good reliability.
Filled it full of water
Bike randomly does "runaways" now
Full throttle.

Trigger seems to be the loose wiring on the throttle. (wires poked into wires poked into wires. . . )
When they come loose the bike goes full throttle

Same thing that will eventually happen with a ********************* (but anyway...)

I have a ripcord on the bike
When it gets out of hand I pull it and kill the power*
20180513_093910-1328x747.jpg
The motor is very light weight and well designed
It lays down power
Bolts in
Has a beefcake torque arm

Lets everybody know I am coming tho.... WAH WAH WAH WAH
Lol - gonna stick some tar paper to it. Maybe add a few hundred grams
It will be tits then

-methods

P.S. There ya go :D
Increasing battery voltage and controller current limit will result in a non linear experience

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methods   10 GW

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Re: Best Full Suspension ebike Frames?

Post by methods » May 13 2018 12:09pm

My gut says that this is going to make a radial ebike. . .

For the ladies (at least my ladies) they pussy-foot the gas
10Ah is plenty @ 12S

The big triangles (for me at least) are all about packing in 20AH of 24S to try and romp non-stop all day.
Different trip.

Light weight is FTW

If I can get someone on CraigsList to take me up on my "BJ for money" offer I can pick up a CA, scavenge the sensors off of that Xtracycle, and set her up with torque assist.

I think that Torque Assist is a great way to introduce a nOoB to the power*
Maybe introduce an old dog to a new trick as well.

I am a bit more cautious these days on who I ride with.
Seen injuries
Had injuries
...

If someone shows even the slightest hesitation I put them on the "kids banana seat bike" that does 15mph and only has a foot brake.
That usually minimizes the skin and tooth loss :mrgreen: (just kidding - seen no teeth and few sq inches of skin lost - surprisingly)

-methods
Increasing battery voltage and controller current limit will result in a non linear experience

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methods   10 GW

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Re: Best Full Suspension ebike Frames?

Post by methods » May 15 2018 9:48am

Build Update:

Kimberly stripped the non-essentials off the frame

Batteries are ready to be put into service

A partner in the UK provided a BMS for testing. This will be the first step.
The BMS is intended to be embedded - encapsulated - buried in potting - or in some way "built in and kept dry".
BMS is 12 channels, draws no current (to speak of) off the pack

BMS can be remotely turned on and off via 2 wires with ~12V
BMS communicates over 2 wires using ISOspi
BMS can balance in the hundreds of mA or Amps (thermally limited of course)

BMS is probably 5 times as expensive as an "all in one" China/Ebay unit
For good reason.

Remember that we are building the lego's here. . .
The legos that the big boys use **

This particular lego is fully programmable
Arduino will do just fine as the masterr

Set your balancing profile
Of course set your upper and lower limits and bounds

Since we all need to learn CAN. . . communication is NOT over UART/USB!
Communication external is over CAN (Automotive spec - if you understand CANopen you will get it)

After I see how well it works we will hit up Santa for seed money, post a video on Youtube, and make them available.
I will no doubt lose my ass on the deal and thats fine.
Customer support is what keeps me current

..

Now... left to my own devices... I might consider running raw packs without a BMS
Thats an option that people have

I can do it... charge free-balls with no fear... BUT... I also have a 6th sense for impending fire*

For others
I suggest spending the money for a programmable BMS and learning the methods and ways
Think of it as the modern day equ of a small block Chevy with a blower
Put in the work... and the work pays in spades.

TOPIC: Full Suspension ebike Frames

ANSWER: Anything but that frocking Walmart garbage

Walmart bikes are not bikes
They are imitation bikes
The brake handles bend and break
The tires melt off
The bits and pieces rust immediately
The frame is heavy and lame
The rims are worse than hub motor rims
The shocks (front and rear) only resemble shocks

IT is NOT A VALUE
Even at $50 it is NOT A VALUE

The lowest you can currently go... is ... a couple hundred bucks.
(here at least. Plan on spending more like $750 for something turn key )

Buy a quality name brand with a lot of miles on it
Dont turn your nose up at older models... they have useful features... like Vbrake studs!

Go with disk brakes
Hydralic
Small disks will do fine (until you get the weight up) then big disks look better (pinky finger stopies)

Never mount the packs up on the bars or back over the rear wheel
Up on the bars makes for a bad ride
Back over the rear wheel (up high) makes for a wobbler

Get the weight in the same spot that your body weight is
That is how the machine was designed *

Mount the batteries first and dont worry about the controller
Controller can go ANYHWERE

Center the packs and protect them
Then just zip-tie the controller on the left or right side... wherever it wont get in the way
Match it on the other side with a similar sized "safety box"*

Remember that the goal is not to have a 300 mile range
The goal is to have 30hp on tap with a 30 mile pedal range and ... maybe as short as... a 3 mile FULL THROTTLE range
Then incorporate a DC Fast Charger... that is at least a KW...
One that (in the US) pulls from a standard 120V 15A NEMA

Spend your money on the charger *
TO keep it small and light and powerful

Lambda makes good products
Isolated and powerful and protected
Few hundred bucks may get you into something that can do 100V @ 10A
Maybe do 50V @ 20A... but we are trying to get over to HV and away from HC

Some promote High Current
This is not an approach that scales
Ask anyone who flies or wants to go to outerspace

There is one way and one way only to electrically enter space
High Voltage

It is not impossible to do with high current
It is just ASTOUNDINGLY IMPRACTICAL

1KV is the current magic number
Show me a kilo-volt and I will show you ASTOUNDING performance
Literally "break your neck" acceleration - forward and backward.

Like one of those RC cars that seems unreal on sticky tires

-methods
Increasing battery voltage and controller current limit will result in a non linear experience

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Re: Best Full Suspension ebike Frames?

Post by methods » May 16 2018 8:18am

Topic Tie-in:

I have worked at a lot of Startup Companies.
Here is truth -

...

To make a good frame decision takes a "Systems Approach"

This does NOT mean that you have to spec all your parts before you spec a frame... but it does mean that frame selection is heavily dependent on component selection*

(Hence why I qualified my frame suggestions with intended use case)

If you are going with a COTS battery, that will define your frame requirements.
If you are going with Hobby City Hobby King packs - different requirements.

If you seek light weight....
If you seek long range....

If you wish to build a "learning platform" for you and your kids/family
If you wish to demo your fabrication skills

If you wish to build a Test Platform (for a this or that)... thats a requirements driver.

I suggest the following approach:

1) Define your requirements

1.1) Simply list what you want your bike to do, what you want it to be, where you want to land, how long you want to work on it, how much you want to spend...

2) Procure and set your constants

2.1) Get in hand the items which are not variables. Maybe you have a controller already... or a hub motor from a friend... or some salvaged packs from another project. These constants will drive your requirements. Should you NOT set some arbitrary constants up front... it is highly likely that you will get caught in indecision*

3) Assess Budget and be patient

3.1) Best bet is to set an upper and lower bound on what you want to spend. No less than $200 (to drive quality), no more than $500 (to respect budget). Once the bounds are set watch Craigs List, Ebay, the local yard sales, FleaMarket, friends..... Ask around...

YOU DO NOT NEED A NEW FANCY BIKE!
WE WRECK BIKES... SO... IF YOU GO FANCY... EITHER TURN KEY IT... OR BE READY TO SCRATCH IT UP.

Thats my "back on topic post"
Advice on using the Systems Approach to down select on components and sub-components.

-methods
Increasing battery voltage and controller current limit will result in a non linear experience

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Re: Best Full Suspension ebike Frames?

Post by methods » Jun 07 2018 10:38am

Bike Update

Up and running
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.
.

Almost "biffed my nads hard" when I lost the right pedal

...
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...

Cranks from an unknown source
Bush installed the waffles
I was validating the bike - pedaling as hard as I could - 35mph

Started feeling a wobble - the kind you feel with a bent lower end

Rounded out the crank
...

Its not a self removing type
Gave my extraction tool to the "bike church"
Its a spline type - all my spares are square type (gave away all my Kona Stinky to a random welder on CL)

...

Bike came off the line easy enough
Pulled hard after 5mph
Too much power for Kimberly (adding Matthews 3spd switch for her)

Lesson...
Dont give ANYBODY a bike till you run it in yourself!

...

I teach that one should ride the pedals at all times
No ass on the seat!

With no ass on the seat... and with a seat like that... should you lose a pedal going 35...
unless you are REAL GOOD
You are going down REAL HARD
So...

Pay attention to the tactile feedback of your bike
Never ride past something that "feels funny"

Protect your nads :idea:

-methods
Increasing battery voltage and controller current limit will result in a non linear experience

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Re: Best Full Suspension ebike Frames?

Post by fechter » Jun 07 2018 11:57am

I think it needs a few more zip ties. Just those alone will act as a theft deterrent.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: Best Full Suspension ebike Frames?

Post by methods » Jun 07 2018 12:27pm

Hey now...

That's our CPA's very first ebike build! :mrgreen:

I just trained her on Lipo charging safety (She does it with a Sorensen 60V 18A power supply - carefully )
Handed her 4 packs that had been Andersonized w/ a 4 prong Y adapter
Gave her some general guidelines on pack placement
Went and took a nap...

When I came back - the bike was dialed 8)

...

After all those ends were snipped it came out pretty clean
We debated whether or not to duct tape the pack and have it slide in and out...
Duct tape two packs to make a 5Ah and 10Ah version
Or... just build it into the bike

It was decided that 5Ah was not enough (weight savings did not justify losses)
It was decided that the pack need not be removed - in fact built in was better
(wired 12S then 2P, remaining two plugs used for Controller and ChargePort)

...

Sadly...
The BMS did not make it on the pack AGAIN

WHy???

Damn frigging super micro crimps... grrr... :)
(use big wires and big crimps)

I use 16AWG for chassis wiring and no smaller than 10AWG for anything close to power.

-methods
Increasing battery voltage and controller current limit will result in a non linear experience

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Re: Best Full Suspension ebike Frames?

Post by Chalo » Jun 07 2018 1:24pm

methods wrote:
Jun 07 2018 12:27pm
(use big wires and big crimps)

I use 16AWG for chassis wiring and no smaller than 10AWG for anything close to power.
I used to observe massive overkill principles in wiring too-- crimp and then solder, excess wire size, etc. I got over it. Now I usually use 22ga for sub-ampere lighting wires and one size larger battery and motor leads than whatever is on the controller.

When in doubt, I do the math. Take the peak anticipated current and the resistance of the length of wire in question and calculate its power loss. If it's not enough to make the wire or component warm, I don't worry about it.

Run a whole amp (which I don't) through 8 feet of 22ga wire and you lose 1/8 of a watt. In return for that, your wire is thin, lightweight, inexpensive, easy to solder, and tidy to route and package.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: Best Full Suspension ebike Frames?

Post by methods » Jun 07 2018 1:34pm

Chalo wrote:
Jun 07 2018 1:24pm
methods wrote:
Jun 07 2018 12:27pm
(use big wires and big crimps)

I use 16AWG for chassis wiring and no smaller than 10AWG for anything close to power.
I used to observe massive overkill principles in wiring too-- crimp and then solder, excess wire size, etc. I got over it. Now I usually use 22ga for sub-ampere lighting wires and one size larger battery and motor leads than whatever is on the controller.

.. .
Thanks for the input Chalo
Your logic is sound enough

What I am referencing here (off topic admittedly) is mechanical strain on wiring for applications like Motorcycles, Boats, Go-Karts, etc. It has been my experience that a great deal of field failures occur due to "rough handling" of "small gauge wire". I can agree that the rang you describe is appropriate for ebike use. (I am building with Sevcon Gen 4 size gear now... so the gauges you propose would be undersized for that application)

Tie-in being -
I am kitting up "Death Bike" like collections of components - so - on topic enough (being that this is a full suspension thread)

I have found 16AWG stranded to be a good choice for that level of build
(Chalo is more of a pure bicycle expert, and I respect his opinions)

To keep on topic -
Here is my Rear Shock Rebuild writeup

http://www.schindlerengineering.com/pub ... 20-report/

Sorry its an off-site link
I get tired of arguing so I just do my thing at my own spot :)

I am not the expert... but my stuff works.

-methods
Increasing battery voltage and controller current limit will result in a non linear experience

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Re: Best Full Suspension ebike Frames?

Post by Chalo » Jun 07 2018 1:41pm

methods wrote:
Jun 07 2018 1:34pm
What I am referencing here (off topic admittedly) is mechanical strain on wiring for applications like Motorcycles, Boats, Go-Karts, etc. It has been my experience that a great deal of field failures occur due to "rough handling" of "small gauge wire".
You are absolutely correct about that. I use bigger than necessary cables and connectors for things that get unplugged frequently (e.g. chargers) for that very reason. And I try to bundle multiple chassis-mounted leads into the minimum number of common connector plugs as a means of maximizing robustness and fault tolerance.

My first resort for beefing up strain relief is glue-lined heat shrink tubing, but fatter wires also do that job.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: Best Full Suspension ebike Frames?

Post by methods » Jun 07 2018 2:08pm

You are a great asset to the community Chalo.
You have had my vote of confidence on several occasions - when issues came up - and ... please keep up the good work.

Right on with the Charger Plug example...
I regularly use wires as the "handle" :oops:

Ok...
Back to the daily grind...
My CPA has announced to me that I am "small potatoes" and that I need to "get money, get paid"

Off to do so
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-methods
Increasing battery voltage and controller current limit will result in a non linear experience

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