eTrike Conversion - as Mobility device! ... ?

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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docnjoj   100 GW

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Re: eTrike Conversion - as Mobility device! ... ?

Post by docnjoj » Oct 29 2015 8:01am

I can see the day that I need to use my trike in this fashion. I will raise the seat and cut down cornering speeds, but that should do it. The Mad Max is quite narrow at 28 inches between the front wheels.
otherDoc
E-bike stable at our house

Steintrike Mad Max full suspension trike rear Cute 100H going on: Whoops, Cute wheel broke but I fixed it.
Sun USX delta trike EbikeKit small geared front wheel sort of front suspension for wife

Agniusm/A123 AMP 20 36 volts on the Steini has been taken off.
2x16000 Multisport from HK now gone as they died after 2 years
New Luna 10S bottle battery 13.6AH now on mine
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Re: eTrike Conversion - as Mobility device! ... ?

Post by DrkAngel » Oct 29 2015 8:34am

dogman dan wrote:A low speed mobility trike is a good idea. or at least Jason thought so...

The key difference is the ability to pedal it, vs traditional power chairs. The rider can choose to get some exercise, however minimal. While I was sickest, I could pedal very little and would pedal some going out, then just throttle home. That ability to throttle home was crucial for me when I was that weak. But at the same time, the little bit of exercise was crucial for both my mental attitude, and physical recovery.
Back in 08, I was unable to pedal more than a few minutes.
eBike helped me rejuvenate my health considerably.
I have multiple eBikes of varying purpose:
Pedal assist - Comfort Cruiser
Electric assist - Transporter
(Yes! Big difference!)

1st eTrike is designed as pedal assist.
Motor as primary motivation with pedals for exercise, hills or extending range. ... or better traction!
Schwinn Meridian pedals, and brakes, through right rear wheel only, left is a freewheel.
Applying motor to left wheel supplies dual rear wheel drive, left motor - right pedal.
Also the gear reduction motor provides noticeable deceleration - great for restricting speed going down hills.

Will build similar "electric assist" variant with freewheel on motor.
Full mobility version with 2 motors a feasible probability. Pedals disabled and floorpan added >> front skirt >> windshield >> roof >> doors >> ?
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Re: eTrike Conversion - as Mobility device! ... ?

Post by dogman dan » Oct 29 2015 9:02am

Now you are talking DDK style trikes.

Or the ELF.

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Re: eTrike Conversion - as Mobility device! ... ?

Post by docnjoj » Oct 29 2015 1:03pm

I'll tell you DMD, that Elf is a bit big to bring into a store or use on the sidewalk. It does look like a good commuter though. I sure do agree about the pedals being a requirement. They do help even if you just spin. With a bit of pressure they can keep someone much fitter than not using them. Even old people like me!
otherDoc
E-bike stable at our house

Steintrike Mad Max full suspension trike rear Cute 100H going on: Whoops, Cute wheel broke but I fixed it.
Sun USX delta trike EbikeKit small geared front wheel sort of front suspension for wife

Agniusm/A123 AMP 20 36 volts on the Steini has been taken off.
2x16000 Multisport from HK now gone as they died after 2 years
New Luna 10S bottle battery 13.6AH now on mine
Relatively New 10S4Px2 for wife's bike giving 20ah @ 40 volts home made Panasonic from Tumich. BMS's rule.

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Re: eTrike Conversion - as Mobility device! ... ?

Post by dogman dan » Oct 30 2015 6:50am

When Drkangel mentioned roof and wind screen, I thought of the ELF. It would be way too big to ride on the sidewalk, get through doors. For sure, to be any use as a mobility vehicle, it needs to be smaller. That's why Jason shrunk the regular adult trike to get the liberty trike.

But you could likely get away with parking the ELF near the door, and then hop on the powered grocery cart. Assuming of course, you can still walk 100 feet or so.

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Re: eTrike Conversion - as Mobility device! ... ?

Post by DrkAngel » Oct 30 2015 8:23am

Schwinn as the starting point would make a better light transport than an indoor mobility device.
Wide-long track and longhorn style handle bars are too cumbersome and awkward for indoor maneuvering.

This is designed more as a replacement for a car ... for self and light cargo transport within a small community.
Affordable transportation bridging the gap between the expensive mobility scooter and an expensive car+insurance etc.
Ideal for retired seniors and the somewhat disabled.
More appropriate for runs to the grocery store, laundry mat, post office etc.
Key lock and motion alarm will be advisable options.
A little learning is a dangerous thing;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
There, shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely, sobers us again.

I enjoy enlightening ... and enlivening the spirit of the innovators.

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Re: eTrike Conversion - as Mobility device! ... ?

Post by Chalo » Oct 31 2015 12:15am

When I was in the Boston area recently, I met a young woman who had a self-contained electric drive unit attached to her wheelchair, like the fork on a trike.

Image

Ever since then, when I see this thread pop up, I wonder about making a low-slung electric wheelchair-trike with the seat tucked down in between the wheels for stability, basically recumbent-- but with a hydraulic or scissors jacking system to get the seat up higher and the front wheel pulled in closer for indoor use.

If the power unit could be quickly removed to use it as a normal wheelchair, even better.
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Re: eTrike Conversion - as Mobility device! ... ?

Post by dogman dan » Oct 31 2015 6:13am

Cool idea Chalo. I like those wheelchair adapters too. I think most who use them just transfer to a regular chair in the house. But a convertible chair like you describe would be a lot better for use in situations like a school or college, or a workplace.

My goofy idea has been a kind of weird golf cart. It would be NEV class. You'd drive your powered or unpowered wheelchair onto its low deck. Then grab hand controls that could be used even by a quadriplegic with some use of one hand left, and drive to your relatively close destination. Once at the campus, the user would just use the chair. No need for a lift van and driver, even for a fairly severely handicapped person.

When you said mobility device DrkAngel, most of us are thinking in terms of something that can still fit in the house easy enough. While a Schwinn will fit through a large house door, it's not real convenient to bring inside most houses.

When Jason designed the Liberty Trike, one of the first criteria was a 25" total width. Able to fit though narrower doors than a typical adult trike. While not really intended for indoor use, it's just small enough to maneuver in larger indoor spaces like a classroom or a store. But this trike is not at all intended for use by the completely disabled. It's aimed at folks that can still pedal some, and want some exercise, but find a long walk difficult. Like the e bike, it's niche is getting people out of the house for a bit longer time than they might on a non motorized bike or trike. But the design makes it easier to live with than a full size adult trike if it must come inside the house for security. Lots of folks have no enclosed garage, and a full size trike in the house is a bitch. Personally, I think this trike is going to catch on with the RV crowd eventually. Broken in half, it could stow in the under the floor bins on the fancy motor homes. The ability to break in half is truly the unique feature of Jason's design.

Sorry if this post is spammy, but I think it does not highjack the topic.

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Re: eTrike Conversion - as Mobility device! ... ?

Post by ddk » Oct 31 2015 9:39am

ooh ooh
can i join this conversation again?
added opini0ns from me include:
elf IS TOO WIDE FOR ANYTHING USA

United brushed motors sans freewheel sux- completely losing coasting means 4x the battery use for the same distance traveled.
+ try pedaling against an unpowered geared 450W motor

Although I managed to build a trike with the lowest leg lift to clear the chain (9"), if I were to build again I would start with a Trailmate "joyrider" design, only better by using standard BBS driving a front jackshaft incorporating a motor drive, and a front hub motor because it can be used for silly maneuvering. (quasi-reverse) -My Justwin trike's front wheel rotates +/- 150 degrees allowing me to turn in almost any situation. Yet I still have the option to fred flintstone a reverse if needed. (no floorboard)

DMD You should do a search for "liberty trike"... personally, I'd change the name

MPPM trike easily clears any 'standard' front entrance door (32" or wider)
-hard to believe because it 'looks' so big

those are my opinions... @ the moment.
always subject to change
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DrkAngel   100 GW

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Re: eTrike Conversion - as Mobility device! ... ?

Post by DrkAngel » Oct 31 2015 10:42am

ddk wrote: United brushed motors sans freewheel sux- completely losing coasting means 4x the battery use for the same distance traveled.
+ try pedaling against an unpowered geared 450W motor
400% the battery use! ... ???
How? ... can you figure?
Should be identical usage as freewheel motor except for when coasting downhill ... or when coming to stop.
Downward slopes would use a minimal idle watts.
Steeper downhills would require no watts ... and no brakes! - Non-freewheel specifically incorporated as safety feature to increase braking effectiveness and minimize brake wear. (Many-most(?) Trikes drive and brake with only 1 rear wheel.)
(gear reduction motor acts like an effective, reliable brake - an eJake brake!)
And ... non-freewheel allows forward/reverse controller!

My latest, as proposed, design is designed as a "pedal assist".
In other words, an electric eTrike with optional pedal assist. - Never intended or recommended for pedal only!
A little learning is a dangerous thing;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
There, shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely, sobers us again.

I enjoy enlightening ... and enlivening the spirit of the innovators.

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ddk   1 MW

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Re: eTrike Conversion - as Mobility device! ... ?

Post by ddk » Nov 02 2015 9:38pm

DrkAngel wrote: 400% the battery use! ... ???
...
My latest, as proposed, design is designed as a "pedal assist".
In other words, an electric eTrike with optional pedal assist. - Never intended or recommended for pedal only!
location location location
If I head south I coast the first 5 miles using neither pedaling or battery power (but I always pedal anyway)
If I head north I coast a couple of miles. Either way I coast a lot.
I have built a trike motored sans freewheel with a MY-something motor. I've used those for lots of things because: cheap/brushed=no controller needed for certain applications.
Bottom line: I used 4x the battery to go across town with the non freewheeled trike.
Picture 058.jpg
Picture 058.jpg (48.53 KiB) Viewed 1567 times
I didn't read the whole thread. (TL;DR)
My personal opinions includes: forcing the rider to pedal (aka "passive exercise device") because mild exercise extends ones' life, for no other reason... with a simple way to disconnect pedaling if absolutely necessary (built one that way when I couldn't rotate my legs)
Also played the role of caretaker for too many years where I couldn't help but notice the huge benefits to the cared-for if they were given (or somewhat forced to do) any means of exercise involving simple stretching motions. IMO leg rotation is #1 followed by shoulder/arms.

Being an old guy with more issues than most, I get talked to by strangers (also old/sometimes just disabled) about my various contraptions. You might conclude my opinions are biased by these random conversations. (live and learn)


Just adding to your conversation.
Schwinn meridian does have a jackshaft location where One can add "stuff"
9 tooth on jackshft.jpg
9 tooth on jackshft.jpg (33.45 KiB) Viewed 1567 times
I'm all for an inexpensive means for the elderly to get about the daily chores of life mit-out nursing homes (f*ck "managed care") drivers license etc...
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Re: eTrike Conversion - as Mobility device! ... ?

Post by docnjoj » Nov 03 2015 9:09am

Hey DDK! I like your attitude, young man!
otherDoc @ 70 years old.
E-bike stable at our house

Steintrike Mad Max full suspension trike rear Cute 100H going on: Whoops, Cute wheel broke but I fixed it.
Sun USX delta trike EbikeKit small geared front wheel sort of front suspension for wife

Agniusm/A123 AMP 20 36 volts on the Steini has been taken off.
2x16000 Multisport from HK now gone as they died after 2 years
New Luna 10S bottle battery 13.6AH now on mine
Relatively New 10S4Px2 for wife's bike giving 20ah @ 40 volts home made Panasonic from Tumich. BMS's rule.

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Re: eTrike Conversion - as Mobility device! ... ?

Post by DrkAngel » Nov 03 2015 10:17am

ddk wrote: Schwinn meridian does have a jackshaft location where One can add "stuff"
3 speed rear hub is the ideal replacement for the intermediate hub - gives L-M-H pedal speeds.

See Revised speeds in later post
My Schwinn Meridian mobility prototype is designed for:
9T motor sprocket ... 13T sprocket or freewheel - both available for MY1016z3, MY1018z & XYD-16 motors (+ 11T sprocket)
10mph @ 24V ............ 14.4mph @ 24V (350w Motor output)
11mph @ 25.9V .......... 15.5mph@ 25.9V (375w+ ") - (2 motors at 25.9V = max "legal" 750w)
14mph @ 33.3V .......... 20mph @ 33.3V (485w ")
15mph @ 36V ............ 21+mph@ 36V (525w ")

Up voltage, not gear, for greater speeds, if hilly.
Dual MY1016z3, one on each rear wheel for very hilly!
48V battery & controller (48V 30A?) with 2 - 24V motors in series?
Switch available to "switch" motors to parallel for an effective 2 speed.
24V 30A to each motor >>> 48V 15A to each motor
Last edited by DrkAngel on Jan 19 2017 5:44am, edited 2 times in total.
A little learning is a dangerous thing;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
There, shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely, sobers us again.

I enjoy enlightening ... and enlivening the spirit of the innovators.

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Re: eTrike Conversion - as Mobility device! ... ?

Post by DrkAngel » Nov 05 2015 8:17am

ddk wrote: Bottom line: I used 4x the battery to go across town with the non freewheeled trike.
Just metered the Unite gear reduction motors at 24V full speed no load.
MY1018z = 40w
MY1016z3 = 50w+

No explanation as to why the 350w My 1016z3 motor used more than the 450w MY1018z.
New, brushes not worn in?
Higher rpm and reduction ratio. ... ?
Longer - smaller diameter has effect?
A little learning is a dangerous thing;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
There, shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely, sobers us again.

I enjoy enlightening ... and enlivening the spirit of the innovators.

New & Improved - Acronym Definitions

Index - Homemade Battery Packs - Updated - December 2019

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Re: eTrike Conversion - as Mobility device! ... ?

Post by dogman dan » Nov 07 2015 8:24am

If the system can freewheel, entirely possible to pedal 100% more, 400% more, 1000% more, whatever.

But I've found you don't have to carry a whole lot more battery to run just enough power to eliminate cogging for most dd hubmotors. 50w will do er, so lets say you ride 10mph without the motor helping much.

At 10 mph, 50wh to go ten miles using the motor only enough to eliminate cogging. For many, pedaling without assistance 10 miles is about the limit, excluding fit athletes. So all you really need if your system doesn't freewheel is a battery 50wh bigger. In theory.

But so tempting to make it a little easier, so 100wh more realistic for 10 miles. That can be 25% of a smaller battery, that has 400wh of real world capacity.

My approach remains,,, screw it and carry a big battery. I like to ride using 200w average a lot, but 50-100w is too weak for my taste. Once you are carrying 1000wh, 10 miles at 100w is only 10% of your capacity.

In any case, for me the most I'd improve my range would be 10-25%, not 400%. Likely only 10%, because I'm still just sick enough to be physically limited to that.

But you can choose to pedal all you want, especially if a bike coasts well. I do prefer a freewheeling hub motor, it definitely does better on the down hills, coasting much farther without pedal effort. I have done tests that proved that a freewheeling motor ridden on rolling hills gets efficiency very close to the same as riding on dead flat roads.

I just wish you could get gigantic 3000w geared hub motors. :twisted:

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Re: eTrike Conversion - as Mobility device! ... ?

Post by DrkAngel » Nov 09 2015 9:11am

Rather than a Forward/Reverse controller ...
I've settled on a low volt reverse button attached to motor.
A momentary toggle, positioned away from throttle, seems the simplest-safest method of low speed reverse maneuvering.
1s (3.7V) will likely provide ~1<2mph.
Light gauge lead should limit amps to reduce initial engagement jerk.
Might also be feasible as a Jake brake?
A little learning is a dangerous thing;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
There, shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely, sobers us again.

I enjoy enlightening ... and enlivening the spirit of the innovators.

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Re: eTrike Conversion - as Mobility device! ... ?

Post by DrkAngel » Apr 03 2016 10:09am

Switch for 24V >> 48V or series >> parallel.
DrkAngel wrote:Re-rigged a Forward reverse switch as a 24V to 48V shifter.
2 - 24V packs, "shifted" from parallel to serial .
Switch does disengage all power in "neutral" center position.

* Important to remove bus bar on left side between #2 and #5 for Serial Parallel
Image

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A little learning is a dangerous thing;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
There, shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely, sobers us again.

I enjoy enlightening ... and enlivening the spirit of the innovators.

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MY1016z3 Gear-Voltage Calculations

Post by DrkAngel » Apr 03 2016 12:24pm

MY1016z & Spoke Mount Sprockets

Previous gear ratio speeds look inaccurate.
Rated speed based on rated performance rpm ...
MY1016z3 9-31T.jpg
MY1016z3 9-31T.jpg (33.86 KiB) Viewed 1371 times
9T motor sprocket
31T Spoke mount sprocket
24V 350w @ 308 rpm
= 7mph

Some mods:
13T motor sprocket or freewheel = 10mph (350w)
33.3V = 9.6mph (485w)
36V = 10.3mph (525w)

See -Speed and Gear Ratio Calculator

On OEM eZip
9T motor sprocket
20T wheel sprocket
24V 350w @ 308 rpm = 10.7mph

Some mods:
13T motor sprocket = 15.5mph (350w)
33.3V = 14.8mph (485w)
36V = 16mph (525w)
44.4V = 19.8mph (645w)
Last edited by DrkAngel on Dec 26 2016 8:00am, edited 1 time in total.
A little learning is a dangerous thing;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
There, shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely, sobers us again.

I enjoy enlightening ... and enlivening the spirit of the innovators.

New & Improved - Acronym Definitions

Index - Homemade Battery Packs - Updated - December 2019

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(MY1016z3) Voltage x Gear = Speed

Post by DrkAngel » Jul 17 2016 7:53am

Figured up cheat sheet for various gear-voltage combinations
(26" wheel)
MY1016z3 gearing.jpg
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Last edited by DrkAngel on Jan 15 2017 8:41am, edited 1 time in total.
A little learning is a dangerous thing;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
There, shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely, sobers us again.

I enjoy enlightening ... and enlivening the spirit of the innovators.

New & Improved - Acronym Definitions

Index - Homemade Battery Packs - Updated - December 2019

EBike Toolbox - Bargains! $

Endless Sphere Wiki - Lost?

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Re: eTrike Conversion - as Mobility device! ... ?

Post by k9kruiser » Aug 26 2016 5:29pm

DrkAngel,
Appreciate all your info as my build will probably be similar. What I would love to see is how you mounted it. I think one picture showed the motor mounted to a plate, but it wasn't obvious what connected to what?

Did you consider the clamshell spoke option vs. the rag method? I know the machined part method is way more money.

Thanks!

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