eTrike Conversion - as Mobility device! ... ?

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Re: eTrike Conversion - as Mobility device! ... ?

Post by ddk » Jul 30 2012 2:52am

most the trikes I've converted that have band brakes limit the room on a tubed axle (like what the wm photo shows.
If the axle has a 6-speed gear cluster included then there is no room for additional freewheels.
Replacing the band brake with a disc brake gets additional room as well as only using a single-speed freewheel.
You can get freewheel adapters for a 5/8" axle from sick bikes staton-inc and likely a few other sources.
For disc brake adapters it's kind of a 'build your own' using a 5/8" hub -or- I drilled out the drum of a band brake assembly to accept a disc. The problem then becomes how to mount the caliper without welding stuff.

The least expensive conversion, in terms of labor, is to use a front hub motor.
Sancho's Horse wrote:...I am interested to see the differential. The worksman gets its differential abilities from the way the wheels themselves are constructed. They work great, but limit replacement options.
+1
me2
Last edited by ddk on Jul 30 2012 2:18pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: eTrike Conversion - as Mobility device! ... ?

Post by DrkAngel » Jul 30 2012 11:15am

Already ordered up a 5/8” ID Adaptor for freewheel sprockets 1.10" wide, 2 set screws - $12.62

Staton-inc.com has some great items, but their "search" is useless!
Links to similar items:

Also available - 5/8" ID x 1/2" wide Adaptor for freewheel Sprocket 3 prong Design - $15.78
5/8" ID x 1/2" wide Adaptor for freewheel sprocket - $13.50

Also found a great little toybox item! -
Image - $5 !!!
"Gear Box 6.5 to 1 reduction, #40-79 Jacobson, Self Propelled Lawn Mower transmission"
Rated for 7HP!!! ... Yeah ... got a few!
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Re: eTrike Conversion - as Mobility device! ... ?

Post by ddk » Jul 30 2012 12:59pm

...having read the thread finally I concur with limiting the top speed to below 10mph.
8mph is still tip-worthy---- actually you can tip a standard delta trike at just about any speed.

8mph is a nice cruising speed for a tricycle with no modifications. Someone walking their dog is 8mph territory.
The center of gravity would have to be lowered by about 15" for higher speeds, but then you run into problems with footrests/pedals being too high etc.
Stretching the frame, or starting with a stretched frame is the approach I took for my personal trikes.

My trikes are also my mobility devices, except I transfer to store electric carts if the store provides them. If not it depends on how I'm feeling whether or not I enter a cartless store (mostly I won't, as I can only walk for short distances)

...that jacobson drive isn't a differential drive which is why it's $5, nor can it handle hugher rpms for very long
(ask me how I know :lol: )
(oh, don't bother... I destroyed several)
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Re: eTrike Conversion - as Mobility device! ... ?

Post by DrkAngel » Jul 30 2012 2:28pm

DrkAngel wrote:
Also found a great little toybox item! -
Image - $5 !!!
"Gear Box 6.5 to 1 reduction, #40-79 Jacobson, Self Propelled Lawn Mower transmission"
Rated for 7HP!!! ... Yeah ... got a few!
Also, different location, I picked up 6 (new) B&D 12V VSR drills, dual range 0-300 & 0-1200 rpm.
Together ... I can build ...

Motorized pull wagons, with Variable Speed Reversible controls on handle.
Pull loads up hills, or just sit in it and drive.

"Kiddy" go carts.

All sorts of toys!

Hey! ... I missed my mid-life crisis.
So please ... let me enjoy my 2nd childhood!
A little learning is a dangerous thing;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
There, shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely, sobers us again.

I enjoy enlightening ... and enlivening the spirit of the innovators.

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Alameda Drivetrain

Post by DrkAngel » Jul 30 2012 4:05pm

26" Alameda Trike

Rear Axle -
Looks to be room for another freewheel!
Alameda Axle.JPG
Alameda Axle.JPG (70.57 KiB) Viewed 2986 times
Chain Idler - Idler sprocket, hanging on end of bolt.
Alameda idler.JPG
Alameda idler.JPG (54.05 KiB) Viewed 2986 times
Differential? - left wheel is operated through some type of friction device!
Right wheel is solid, to axle.
Left wheel is capable of light to moderate acceleration-braking.
Last edited by DrkAngel on Aug 05 2012 4:31pm, edited 1 time in total.
A little learning is a dangerous thing;
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Re: eTrike Conversion - as Mobility device! ... ?

Post by ddk » Jul 31 2012 12:16am

alameda keyway.jpg
alameda keyway.jpg (27.5 KiB) Viewed 3333 times
assuming the keyway is machined throughout the open area...
yep
enough room to shuffle two freewheels around and (the tricky part) drop in the keys.
alameda friction coupler.jpg
alameda friction coupler.jpg (23.44 KiB) Viewed 3333 times
seems to me this might be a an interesting disassemble.
Hopefully the friction coupler isn't welded to the axle ends (probably isn't)
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Re: eTrike Conversion - as Mobility device! ... ?

Post by DrkAngel » Jul 31 2012 8:15am

I was thinking of adding another freewheel between the brake and the pedal freewheel.
3 freewheel.JPG
3 freewheel.JPG (77.33 KiB) Viewed 3310 times
Hmmm?
Looks like there might be enough space to use a 5 - 6 speed freewheel, for the pedal chain.
Tho ... rigging the derailleur might be a problem ... I don't have aluminum welding capability.
Last edited by DrkAngel on Aug 04 2012 2:21am, edited 1 time in total.
A little learning is a dangerous thing;
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There, shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely, sobers us again.

I enjoy enlightening ... and enlivening the spirit of the innovators.

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Re: eTrike Conversion - as Mobility device! ... ?

Post by ddk » Jul 31 2012 2:57pm

DrkAngel wrote:I was thinking of adding the 3rd freewheel between the brake and the pedal freewheel.
...
Looks like there might be enough space to use a 5 speed freewheel, for the pedal chain.
Tho ... rigging the derailleur might be a problem ... I don't have aluminum welding capability.
Probably not a 6-speed.which is what I have for 5/8" axles.
There's not enough room to drop in the keys unless the keyway is cut throughout the length of the axle (some old workmans trikes had this "feature")
You'll be wanting to mount at least a 44-tooth freewheel to reduce the speed of your gear motor btw, unless you're thinking of adding a jackshaft for additional gear reduction.
-or did you want old people cruizin' @ 17mph on an unstable trike? :lol:
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Re: eTrike Conversion - as Mobility device! ... ?

Post by DrkAngel » Jul 31 2012 3:58pm

ddk wrote:
DrkAngel wrote:I was thinking of adding the 3rd freewheel between the brake and the pedal freewheel.
...
Looks like there might be enough space to use a 5 speed freewheel, for the pedal chain.
Tho ... rigging the derailleur might be a problem ... I don't have aluminum welding capability.
Probably not a 6-speed.which is what I have for 5/8" axles.
There's not enough room to drop in the keys unless the keyway is cut throughout the length of the axle (some old workmans trikes had this "feature")
You'll be wanting to mount at least a 44-tooth freewheel to reduce the speed of your gear motor btw, unless you're thinking of adding a jackshaft for additional gear reduction.
-or did you want old people cruizin' @ 17mph on an unstable trike? :lol:
Keyway, and keys, are full through the center.
Just slide the chain freewheel to the center (for the motor), add 5spd freewheel in old spot, everything "keyed" ... no additional key needed!

12V to reduce speed, or, potentiometer (POT) in HALL circuit, to limit speed.
A little learning is a dangerous thing;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
There, shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely, sobers us again.

I enjoy enlightening ... and enlivening the spirit of the innovators.

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Re: eTrike Conversion - as Mobility device! ... ?

Post by ddk » Jul 31 2012 4:59pm

DrkAngel wrote:
ddk wrote:
DrkAngel wrote:I was thinking of adding the 3rd freewheel between the brake and the pedal freewheel.
...
Looks like there might be enough space to use a 5 speed freewheel, for the pedal chain.
Tho ... rigging the derailleur might be a problem ... I don't have aluminum welding capability.
Probably not a 6-speed.which is what I have for 5/8" axles.
There's not enough room to drop in the keys unless the keyway is cut throughout the length of the axle (some old workmans trikes had this "feature")
You'll be wanting to mount at least a 44-tooth freewheel to reduce the speed of your gear motor btw, unless you're thinking of adding a jackshaft for additional gear reduction.
-or did you want old people cruizin' @ 17mph on an unstable trike? :lol:
Keyway, and keys, are full through the center.
Just slide the chain freewheel to the center (for the motor), add 5spd freewheel in old spot, everything "keyed" ... no additional key needed!

12V to reduce speed, or, potentiometer (POT) in HALL circuit, to limit speed.
You'd lose the motor's so-called "sweet spot" where it's most efficient/effective i.e speed/torque, which is close to but a bit lower than it's rated rpm.
But then again...
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Re: eTrike Conversion - as Mobility device! ... ?

Post by ddk » Jul 31 2012 5:08pm

DrkAngel wrote: Keyway, and keys, are full through the center.
Just slide the chain freewheel to the center (for the motor), add 5spd freewheel in old spot, everything "keyed" ... no additional key needed!

12V to reduce speed, or, potentiometer (POT) in HALL circuit, to limit speed.
Not having an example of the alameda trike in front of me I'm making assumptions based on the 7 trikes I've worked on that use similar tubed axles.
Assumptions are for chumps (which I resemble)
...about the freewheel size
You use these motors, so you know what the speed is using a 17-tooth freewheel with a 26" wheel.
At 10mph or less (I recommend 8mph) you'd lose the motor's so-called "sweet spot" where it's most efficient/effective i.e speed/torque, which is close to but a bit lower than it's rated rpm. (about 14-15mph with the 17-tooth gear on a 26" wheel)
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Re: eTrike Conversion - as Mobility device! ... ?

Post by DrkAngel » Jul 31 2012 11:27pm

Alameda has a 20T rear freewheel sprocket, same as the eZip that the motor is designed for.
Efficiency, on this brush motor, is best in the 50 - 80% of "no load" speed (18mph), a 9 - 14+mph "sweet spot" @ 24V.
This efficiency seems to translate well with higher voltage, @ 36V the torque and, presumably, the efficiency, are "sweet" in the 13-22mph range.

Theoretically, 12V would provide a 4.5-7mph "sweet spot" with a 8mph top speed.

"Effectively" ... partial throttle via a PWM controller provides the equivalent of lower voltage, including a shift of the "sweet spot".

Related - 44 Magnum

Of course, motor (watt) output is reduced.
At 12V, or the equivalent, the 450w motor would output a mere 225w.

At 24V, with a potentiometer, I should be able to "dial in" any equivalent voltage.

PS Hidden TURBO button could bypass potentiometer providing full power.
Last edited by DrkAngel on Aug 01 2012 12:30am, edited 1 time in total.
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There, shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely, sobers us again.

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Re: eTrike Conversion - as Mobility device! ... ?

Post by Chalo » Aug 01 2012 12:21am

I've built, rebuilt, and repaired a lot of three-wheelers over the years. Mostly Worksmans, but also Columbias, Schwinns, Suns, and various pedicab trikes (which I consider to be in a different category).

I can't help but think that the Kent trike in question is less a mobility device and more a way to economize on long term elder care expenses. Just sayin'.

Keep it slow. I don't think you can go too slow for this machine. It would be easy to go too fast, though-- not only with regards to treacherous handling qualities, but also too fast for the weak wheels and axles when the rider inevitably encounters bumps. Sidewalks have more unpleasant surprises than traffic lanes.

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Re: eTrike Conversion - as Mobility device! ... ?

Post by etriker » Aug 01 2012 2:36am

I bolted a Tricruiser rear end right onto a Schwinn Meridian.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x218 ... NP0007.jpg

https://www.curriestore.com/product/IZIP-Frame/439/

Got the Tricruiser rear end on eBay.

Sold my biodiesel Mercedes and the whole biodiesel setup. The trike does the job now.

I rode the trike for over a year before I put a motor on it.

Trikes are not bikes and it takes awhile to learn how to handle one and get over the fear of tipping.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0IJgoj4chI&feature=plcp

The youngest person the ride that trike so far was a 9 year old girl and the oldest was an 84 year old man.

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Re: eTrike Conversion - as Mobility device! ... ?

Post by DrkAngel » Aug 01 2012 9:13pm

Chalo wrote:
I can't help but think that the Kent trike in question is less a mobility device and more a way to economize on long term elder care expenses. Just sayin'.

Chalo
My consideration is towards a greater degree of independence.
Including financial.

The typical "mobility scooter" ranges in the $2000-$3000.
ETrike conversion ... well under $500!

Advantages
Besides price, An eTrike conversion has the advantages of:
Further range.
Cargo capacity.
Inexpensive component replacement.
Re-gearing capability.
Higher speed - if advisable.

Disadvantages
Poor "inside" maneuverability.
Not authorized for Social Services (medicare) payment assist.

Designed for paved trail cruising.
Good for trips to the store, groceries, prescriptions, doctor appointments, laundromat etc.
Last edited by DrkAngel on Aug 19 2012 9:20am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: eTrike Conversion - as Mobility device! ... ?

Post by ddk » Aug 01 2012 9:20pm

DrkAngel wrote:Alameda has a 20T rear freewheel sprocket, same as the eZip that the motor is designed for.
yes, I forgot what it was was used on the ezip. So I pulled a number outta my hat.

A tricycle was the best investment I made for my health.
I heartily recommend them to any older persons in loo of a mobility scooter.
-within reason (such as speed :lol: )

-if the alameda tricycle works out ok I will be copying your build (kinda but different) for the folks that want and need them.
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Re: eTrike Conversion - as Mobility device! ... ?

Post by Chalo » Aug 01 2012 11:20pm

DrkAngel wrote:
Chalo wrote:
I can't help but think that the Kent trike in question is less a mobility device and more a way to economize on long term elder care expenses. Just sayin'.
My consideration is towards a greater degree of independence.
Including financial.
I'm not talking bout the elder's expenses. I'm talking about his or her longevity.

Chalo
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Re: eTrike Conversion - as Mobility device! ... ?

Post by Sancho's Horse » Aug 02 2012 1:36am

Wow etriker! That was some unexpected two wheel action on that trike. Pretty cool!

Chalo, I took care of my grandfather before he passed away from prostate cancer. He survived the Great Depression, and World War II (the pacific). The day after he received something like 110 radioactive pellets implanted in his prostate, we stopped by his house and he was up on a ladder painting his barn. On one occasion he said to me, "getting old ain't for sissies." This is getting a bit personal, but the occassion was a day where he had to admit that his vertebrae, which had collapsed due to cancer, had pinched his spinal column in such a way he could not move or feel his legs.

I think it is vital that you and others point out the risks of trikes. I also want you to know that for the vast majority of elderly in this and most countries, economic expense is as much a risk to health as anything. My grandfather was fortunate, but he understood that.

I am looking forward to this build, because I would like to see how inexpensively a trike can be pulled off (safely of course).

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Freewheel, or Solid Sprocket?

Post by DrkAngel » Aug 18 2012 10:15am

I am torn ...
On the one hand, a motor only "rig" allows lowering the seat, (lower center of gravity reduces tipping danger), and proper footrests.

On the other, a freewheel allows pedal assist, for exercise and climbing hills.

The Alameda is only briefly available, every couple weeks.
If I could grab a 2nd trike it would be much simpler!
Just try both ...

But, I did order components for both builds.
I found a 27T freewheel, allowing ~12mph @24V.
Also ordered 28 & 32 sprockets adaptable to 5/8" adapters.
Still waiting for delivery, so I can "think" a little longer.
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Re: eTrike Conversion - as Mobility device! ... ?

Post by DrkAngel » Nov 28 2012 11:43pm

Bargain price on Schwinn Meridian Adult 26-Inch 3-Wheel Bike.
Walmart and Amazon both offering them at $239, with free shipping.

It has a 22T solid rear sprocket. Ideal for mounting an eZip brush, geared motor!
While doing so would disengage the rear drum brake and pedals, it would be held back and slowed down by the geared motor ... stopped with front brake. Available reversing controller for emergency braking and reverse. Additionally the 9T to 22T sprocket ratio would limit 24V speed to a stable 12+mph, Ideal for use as a mobility-cargo scooter.

Amazon.com
Image

Walmart.com
Image

Price Tracking
Image
Last edited by DrkAngel on Dec 25 2012 11:51pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: eTrike Conversion - as Mobility device! ... ?

Post by Chalo » Nov 29 2012 2:13pm

DrkAngel wrote:Bargain price on Schwinn Meridian Adult 26-Inch 3-Wheel Bike.
Walmart and Amazon both offering them at $239, with free shipping.
That's deep enough into the oh-so-cheap range that it starts to look worth it just for the frame and rear axle assembly. It would not be ridiculously expensive to lace some decent rims on those rear hubs, and maybe switch to a dual crown chopper fork with a disc or drum brake in front.

Then you could reduce the wheel diameter to 24", or with shorter cranks, even 20". That would yield stronger wheels, lower step-through, and lower center of mass-- all good things for a mobility device.
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Re: eTrike Conversion - as Mobility device! ... ?

Post by SamTexas » Nov 29 2012 3:14pm

I'm still in search for decent tricycle with:
1) 20" wheels all around
2) Front V-brake
3) Rear V or disc brake on both wheels
4) Chromo frame.
You guys have any recommendations?

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Re: eTrike Conversion - as Mobility device! ... ?

Post by Chalo » Nov 29 2012 11:10pm

SamTexas wrote:I'm still in search for decent tricycle with:
1) 20" wheels all around
2) Front V-brake
3) Rear V or disc brake on both wheels
4) Chromo frame.
You guys have any recommendations?
I have never seen a granny trike with brakes on all three wheels, except old ones with a differential gear coupled to a coaster brake.

The Cycles Maximus pedicab/cargo trike meets your criteria more or less (it comes stock with a hydraulic rim brake in front, and the rear wheels are some slightly larger than 20" moped size), but it's very large, very heavy, and very expensive.

Image
Price list for Cycles Maximus trikes

Most trikes need enough material to provide adequate stiffness that using chromoly rather than ordinary high tensile steel is not of much benefit. That is, if they have enough material to be adequately stiff, they are more than strong enough for the job. (Some are not stiff enough or strong enough, so caveat emptor.)
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Re: eTrike Conversion - as Mobility device! ... ?

Post by SamTexas » Nov 30 2012 11:33am

That's weird, isn't it. One would thought that granny tricycles are those that need the best brakes. I would hate to be old and going down a hill on a tricycle with wimpy brakes.

The pedicab and/or cargo trikes are not what I'm looking for. Just a small, light and well built traditional tricycle.

In the end I might end up with a Sun recumbent delta trike. About 2 feet longer than what I want.

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Re: eTrike Conversion - as Mobility device! ... ?

Post by Sancho's Horse » Nov 30 2012 12:22pm

I have a worksman, and it is going to have braking overkill. It already has a drum brake on the front, an electronic brake and disk brake on the motor, and I am going to use a go-kart disk brakes on the live axle. It doesn't have a differential per se, just a limited slip differential at the hub. I have worried that this limited slip differential at the hub could give a bit of play in the rear during braking, so until I have this figured out, I am going to let that aspect wait.

Originally, all it had on it was a coaster brake. Not a stopping machine.

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