Ft.Collins CO City Council meet TONIGHT: eBikes on trails?

City Council Work Session
Location: 300 LaPorte Avenue
Date: Tuesday June 28, 2011 6:00 PM
Web address: http://www.fcgov.com/cityclerk/agendas.php
Contact Info: City Clerk's Office
Phone: (970) 221-6515
E-mail address: sagonzales@fcgov.com

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11 minute video presentation prepared by the cities "staff ebike team":
http://atlas.fcgov.com/2011_06_28WSPresentation/main.htm

Among the recommendations from a bunch of Boards and Committees that know nothing about ebikes, trial OK periods of up to three years have been recommended. The city also put a Public Opinion survey online to solicite feedback from the completely clueless. Of 202 responses, 49% opposed, 47% in favour, 4% undecided...

The staff ebike team also contacted 20 other CO towns for their positions... NONE of these towns surveyed currently allow ebikes on city trails. They also contacted other cities outside of CO where ebikes ARE permitted on trails.

BTW, one of the cities they contacted - my home town - reported ebikes as NOT allowed on trails, although there is NO LEGISLATION to support this position...

One suggestion from this staff ebike team, to amend their City Code definition of ebikes to restrict them to 75lbs and a frame width of four inches... this to preclude "mopeds" that might otherwise fall within their ebike definitions... They acknowledge their enforcement capabilities on City trails are very limited. Seven rangers to monitor 33,000 acres of natural areas, 103 miles of soft surface trails, plus paved trails system.

"...weight of ebikes and their ability to accelerate rapidly could exacerbate trail erosion..."
"...could create unique safety issues..."
"...create conflicts with other trail users, particularly equestrian..."

(OMG, "scaring the horses" has been a negative worry for over 100 years! See pedal bikes and the motorized carriage...)

"...ebikes may also have a greater impact on wildlife..."
(no explanation given for this)

PDF agenda item here also:
http://citydocs.fcgov.com/?cmd=conv...&doc_download_date=JUN-28-2011&ITEM_NUMBER=04

Lock

How can they enact laws and regulations on ebikes when the laws are totally un-enforceable? What is a cop going to sit there and analyze every bicycle to see if its electric?

Lance Armstrong and other hard core cyclists should be banned from the road then because they can go way faster than I can on my ebike

The old laws ban ebikes by default. This process is actually about *allowing* ebikes where they have not been allowed before. The usual sub-text, open-frame pedal bike-style ebikes OK, scooter/moped-style ebikes too scary

Lock

Well, it does seem like they could increase erosion in different ways than a pedal bike due to the ability of the wheel to spin out when accelerating, especially front hub. But a rear-hub of legal power wouldn't probably contribute much, not to mention the trails would probably see so few ebikes it wouldn't matter. This is one area where the established low power limits work in our favor.

Hmm, it looks like Colorado has defined tadpole trikes out of their bike definition.

.

JohnC said:

Do you want to do an email campaign?

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Not my town!

...but I did PM a link to this thread to the five ES folks I could find from Ft.Collins.

I just think watt happens in Ft.C is important to the rest of the world. Ya can see from their own reports how they (city staff) like to survey other jurisdictions. Mostly, ya get a few staffers that have no experience or hard research making recommendations based on a lot of other folks that have no experience or any hard data either...

Lock

The trails I have been building near my house had been nicely packed. Discovered by a horseman, a few times up the trail dug em all up. I've noticed this also in the Pecos wilderness, and wilderness in colorado. Nothing trashes trails better than a pack string of horses or mules.

I emailed that site ! and said all wiil be fine along as LFP is'nt riding here !! L O L kiding

Seriously; I pointed out the reduction in local traffic, gas use, and the reduction of roads needed for peaple to run simple errors etc.

Wish I knew how to tranfer post etc.

End Note if our goverment was even worth a Sh.t ! They would not be concerned with bicycyle's For God's Sake's

Dogman don't even get me started on horses vs bike on trails. Every where I have ever lived always favord those overgrown poop bags over cyclist.

Oh geez, yeah, a trail that allows horses could never disallow bikes based on erosion concerns. There's a mountain bike trail system here that shares the area w/ horse trails, but the 2 systems have their own trails that just criss-cross each other occasionally, thank goodness.

Pure said:

Dogman don't even get me started on horses vs bike on trails. Every where I have ever lived always favord those overgrown poop bags over cyclist.

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Of course, a horse is a pedestrian, twice.

`Kay. From here:
http://www.fcgov.com/council/

On the second and fourth Tuesday of every month, City Council conducts a 'work session'. The purpose of a work session is to provide Council an opportunity to discuss issues in depth. Unlike regular Council meetings, there is no public input during a work session.

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...so last nights meet wasn't open for public input.

But there was an audience at least. The whole session was videotaped and is already posted online:
http://www.fcgov.com/cable14/video.php

Now Playing
Fort Collins City Council Work Session 6/28/11
There are three topics on the agenda. The first is a periodic review with Boards and Commssions. Then an update on electric transmission. Finally, a discussion about electric assisted bicycles on City trails.

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The frustrating thing is, the video is 1 hour 50 minutes and neither Windoze Media Player or Realplayer will fast forward or pause the damn thing...

But the part of the meeting concerning ebikes on trails starts at 54min.

The staff guy presents his video w/little narrative added, then no immediate comments or questions after staff slideshow presentation...

Again, can't pause the video, but some notes including lots of paraphrasing:

First speaker:
"...not really a fan of the ebike thing..."
"...can't unfire the gun..."
"it's not a bike trail. It's not for commuting... not engineered for bicycles"
"...some ppl think it's a bike trail. Can't forget pedestrians..."
"...One year trial period long enough..."
"...education really important..."


"...is it "engines" or "motors"..."

Staff not recommending ebikes on non-paved trails.

"...maybe should be only some paved trails..."

3rd Speaker
"speed-demon bikers... small children"
"...not convinced ebikers are any more dangerous..."
"...education..."

(Hey, at least one speaker refers to "Josh" as being helpful in all this... Josh K., was that you???)

...more an issue of gearing and testosterone and not the tech..."

"...speed limit good..."

"...congestion an issue but not caused by ebikes..."

next speaker
"...biggest concern enforcement..."
"...small children/walkers..."
"...adding a layer of complexity..."
"...walkable communities..."

back to 1st speaker
"...not supportive but trial period OK..."

"...what plans for congestion..."

"...sunset clause..."
"...impact on wild life..."



Head of staff:
"...staff ebike team started with concerns, "grew" to neutrality after trying them and studying the issue..."



Question for police services:
"...Police did not support due to safety and enforcement concerns..."
"...recreational trails, not commuter trails..."

1st speaker:
"staff needs to detail things more... weight of engines etc..."

emailed suggestion:
"...re enforcement, Park volunteers as trail ambassadors..."

"On your left" yell is scary..."
"...ebikes should have bells like other bikes..."


How did weight limit, width limit recommendations come about?
Current definition doesn't exclude some mopeds



"...what is the magnitude of the problem?"

"...we think there is about 50 of them in town now (other than disabled)..."
"Watt if older ppl stop using the trails because they're worried?"

1st speaker
"...I have ten electric bike ppl sitting right behind me..."
(that was funny `cause I'd been watching the body language of the folks observing the meet sitting behind him and was wondering at their reactions EVery time the guy opened his mouth again) :lol:

Last speaker at about 1:35 was the Mayor:
"Issue is bigger than ebikes. Trails have become busy. I have a group of friends that ride ebikes. They are no different than other bikes. The problem is that as you age it gets harder on the hills. CSU students are going a lot faster than 20-30mph in the mornings on pedal bikes. One of the worst things on the trails are ppl walking their dogs `cause they're unpredictible. Never thought I would be advocating for the bicycle community but I am. As more and more seniors become active, trails provide safe paths for cyclists..."

"...look fwd. to seeing it coming forward..."

And ebike part of meeting ends about 1:46.

Fort Collins, your Mayor ROCKS!

So basically staff were told to detail the proposal more eg length of trial period only one year, their definition of ebike to be amended to exclude "mopeds" by weight and width restriction etc, and it sounds like it will go forward to a City Council meet for a vote.

Watt the good folks of Fort Collins don't seem to realize is that there are no one horse-power-rated "mopeds" out there. Anything sold as a "moped" is far more powerful than 750W and can go a lot faster than 20mph to take advantage of legal limits under which mopeds are permitted.

Lock

Good meeting minutes, Lock!

Hi Guys,

Well, After 6 months of lobbying, educating, and advocating, The City of Fort Collins has voted yes, for a one year trial of E bikes on the multi use paths. It has been a long haul, with over a hundred meetings, between 7 or 8 boards, and the City Council. But, they have seen the light, and are moving forward. Now to get them to drop the four inch frame rule, and possibly to get them to allow tadpole trikes...Sigh. We had another meeting, and they do hear the request to drop the four inch frame rule.

Now, Boulder needs to be worked on as well. But really, it has to go to the state level, where they can make the law state that it is legal to use your bicycle with Electric assist, on the bike paths, unless the city makes the rules tighter...Not the other way around.

You can do it. Just work at it for a year or so, and you to can change the laws...

Peace, Josh K.

The City of Fort Collins has voted yes, for a one year trial

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YES! GOOD STUFF JOSH!!! These walls need to come down.

LocK

Josh, I was in the other day for spokes if you remember. What can we do to expidite the removal of the 4" frame rule? I understand the "scooters" scare but do not understand why it cannot be simply stated as so. I assume that the 75lb weight limit might also be an issue for the trikes so that will need to be brought forth. Perhaps simplicity like "a bicycle or trike modified to accept an electic assist motor" would be the way to go. Unfortunately we are dealing with legal issues and there needs to be "clear cut definitions". I apprciate all the work you and all that have attended the meetings have done. Too bad they can't be on weekends or late evenings (9 ish) so I could join in. Thanks.

Dan

Thought this was a Done Deal?
http://www.coloradoan.com/article/20110705/NEWS01/107050327/City-might-give-ebikes-test-ride

City might give ebikes test ride
Cruisers would be allowed on trail system
Written by Kevin Duggan

Electric-assist bicycles might be allowed to cruise Fort Collins' popular trail system for a test of how they mix with other trail users.

The City Council has directed staff members to bring forward for a formal vote change to city code that would allow the devices on paved trails. The code currently bans motorized vehicles on trails.

A possible one-year trial period would be used to monitor the impact of ebikes, which can travel up to 20 mph.

City management recommended a three-year trial period, but some council members said Tuesday that much time is not needed to determine whether the bikes are a good fit for the trails.

Council members were divided on whether to allow the devices, with some expressing concern for the safety of pedestrians, especially small children and senior citizens.

Mayor pro tem Kelly Ohlson, who said he "is not a fan" of ebikes on trails, said allowing them might lead to the perception among some residents that the trails would be less safe.

Because of that perception, some residents might stop using the trails, he said.

But other council members said fast-moving, strictly human-powered bikes already pose problems on the trails.

Council member Wade Troxell said the issue with bikes has more to do with "gearing and testosterone" than with allowing motorized assistance.

"The particular issue is not necessarily with a kind of device but with the operator," he said.

Troxell said the city should consider speed limits on trails in addition to setting weight and size limits for ebikes.

Mayor Karen Weitkunat said the trails are meant for all types of recreational users to enjoy. An avid cyclist, Weitkunat said ebikes "aren't any different" than other bicycles.

Enforcing a speed limit on the trails would be difficult, she said. Educating the public on trail etiquette - such as announcing one's presence before passing - is the key to keeping the trails safe.

Electric bikes come in many sizes and varieties. A typical electric-assist bike has a motor that matches the effort a rider puts into pedaling.

The bikes are favored by those who wish to continue riding bicycles but might not have the strength to pedal up hills, including senior citizens, Weitkunat said.

The trails provide "safety, security and a recreational area" for many older residents, she said, and ebikes should be part of the mix.

Federal law already allows people with disabilities to use electric-assist bike on city trails, regardless of city regulations, officials said.

City staff members have tentatively proposed amending the city code to allow electric-assist bikes with up to a 4-inch wide frame and weighing less than 75 pounds.

The code language would be aimed at keeping mopeds and other motorized vehicles off the trails, said Marty Heffernan, director of culture, parks, recreation and environment.

"We might have to tighten up the definition to make sure it only allows electric-assist bikes," Heffernan said. "We need to do a little more work on that."

A proposal is expected to be ready for council consideration in a few months.

An issue staff has to address is how to measure residents' opinions about trail safety and user conflicts before the trial period to gauge the impact ebikes have in those areas, Heffernan said.

City boards and commissioners that looked into the issue were divided in their recommendations.

An online survey of residents also drew mixed reviews. Of the 202 respondents, 49 percent were opposed to ebikes and 47 percent were in favor. The remaining respondents didn't state their preference, Heffernan said.

No communities in Colorado contacted by staff allow ebikes on their trails, including Loveland, Windsor and Greeley.

Communities in other states that allow the devices include Eugene, Ore., and Lincoln, Neb.

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Post doesn't appear to be dated but [C]omments start July 5...

BTW Comments include many of the usual silly and myopic reasonings why ebikes are "bad"...

Lock

It seems pretty silly to waste so much time, effort and money on this. How many ebikes are there in the city anyway?..12? Compared to how many regular bikes?..1200 or more?

http://www.coloradoan.com/article/20110801/OPINION04/108010308/Plenty-reasons-keep-ebikes-off-trails

Looks like a letter to the Eds... not sure:

Plenty of reasons to keep ebikes off trails
The city of Fort Collins is considering allowing electric bicycles (ebikes) on our paved recreation trails. I can think of at least four reasons why this is a bad idea.

» It is unnecessary. Ebike riders can now use the many miles of bike lanes on our city streets that have been generously provided by taxpayers. There is no need for them to access our paved recreation trails. The major advocate for allowing ebikes on these trails is a man who sells the bikes and may benefit financially if the city allows them.

One of his arguments is that we're going to "need" to allow ebikes because of the number of baby boomers who will be retiring soon. I'm sure a lot of boomers would be insulted at the suggestion that they will need help peddling their bikes. The Senior Advisory Board seems not to have bought this argument; it voted to recommend that Council not allow them on our paved trails.

» It will lead to more requests from more groups. Indeed, city staff is already looking at the possibility of ebikes on unpaved trails and of Segways, longboards and similar devices on our paved trails. If ebikes are allowed, how could we say "no" to other motorized vehicles? What about ATVs, mopeds, motorcycles and scooters?

» It is dangerous. Just look at any catalog that sells ebikes and you will find that many of them are capable of traveling, effortlessly, at more than 30 miles per hour. Having such vehicles on our recreation trails would be a threat to many of the people who legitimately use these trails now: walkers, runners, people with dogs, young children riding bicycles, families out for a day of enjoyment.

» It will be impossible to enforce. Some have suggested that we could reduce the danger posed by ebikes simply by regulating their use: speed, size, weight, etc. But, in fact, the city's ability to do this is almost nonexistent. There are only seven natural areas rangers who patrol more than 33,000 acres and 103 miles of unpaved trails, from dawn to dusk seven days a week. These are the same seven people who would also be responsible for trying to enforce any regulations that would be applied to ebikes. It's an impossible task.

The city claims to have done "extensive" research, although it did not do any outreach to existing trail users, the group that would be most affected by this change. Even so, of the 202 citizens who made comments, more were opposed than in favor, hardly a ringing endorsement of the idea.

Twelve of the 20 other communities surveyed have banned ebikes, with very little controversy.

If you think ebikes on our paved recreation trails are a bad idea, please let City Council know.

Linda Knowlton lives in Fort Collins.

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One [C]omment so far:

JoeCasanue
6:26 AM on August 1, 2011

Actually the number one reason not to allow motorized bikes on our trails is the fact that they have motors. These trails were approved by the citizens for non-motorized use.

Electric motors are motors, therefore “e-bikes” (as the proponents like to call them in order to downplay the motor and emphasize the bike) are MOTORIZED bikes and should never be allowed.

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Sadly, some folks will nEVer "get" ebikes. Also, attrition ain't fast enough.

Lock

http://www.coloradoan.com/article/20111109/OPINION03/111090344/Tell-council-say-no-ebikes-trails

Tell council to say no to ebikes on trails
11:13 PM, Nov. 8, 2011

If you don't like the idea of motorized vehicles on our paved recreation trails, the time to let City Council know is now. On Tuesday, council will decide whether to allow a trial period for electric bikes on these trails. I feel strongly that this "trial," if allowed, would be just a prelude because City Council will have no way of just saying "no" at its end.

How will they judge? If only X other trail users are hit by ebikes? If they get only Y complaints from other trail users about ebike riders? If only Z tickets are issued to ebike riders for violating trail rules? And just what are these rules? And who will enforce them? And how many collisions and complaints and tickets will be allowed?

Many other communities have said no to ebikes, and we should, too: They are unnecessary, they are dangerous, and allowing them would open the door to all kinds of other motorized vehicles.

If you've not yet contacted council about this, please do so now. If you've done so before, please do it again. The email address is cityleaders@fcgov.com.

Linda Knowlton,

Fort Collins

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http://www.whitepages.com/name/Linda-L-Knowlton/Fort-Collins-CO/3pba7s7

Linda L Knowlton
(970) 223-9328

3230 Monarch Ct
Fort Collins, CO 80525-6142
Age: 65+

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LocK

AWESOME that Pedego and LEVA have chipped in with [C]omments, but the ebikers (no commercial interest)... the best!


Highest scored [C]omments so far:

Score: 14
swervins
8:52 AM on November 9, 2011

That's absolutely ridiculous, Linda. I'm an ebike user. I'm also a mom, and I bike my kid to preschool everyday with it. Know what speed my bike tops out at? 13 mph. We are not dangerous. We don't zip by pedestrians and other bicyclists. I use the electric assist because the bike is so heavy. And having the assist gives me the confidence to take my bike out for short trips around the city instead of driving and creating more pollution. The ebike can save suburbia. I'm telling everyone I know about them. By the way, thanks for posting the email address. I'll email the city right now and voice my full and enthusiast support for the trial period.

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Score: 10
Jeremy3
11:50 AM on November 9, 2011

E-bicycles pose no more of a threat than a traditionally powered bicycle would on the trails.

A fit individual on a road bicycle can easily reach speeds of approximately 20mph and talented individuals can sprint up to approximatly 30mph on flat land, not to mention even greater speeds that can be attained on declines. Of course these speeds are much too fast for safe travel on the local recreational trails, and if an individual was traveling that fast they would be susceptible to punishment regardless of the bicycle type they were on. The argument that e-bicycles are too fast is therefore made null because potentially faster modes of transportation are already allowed on the trails.

The argument that allowing e-bicycles on to the trails is the proverbial slipperly slope that would presumably lead to all manner of snowmobiles, ATVs, and tractors on the recreational trails is even more absurd. While an e-bicycle is assisted by a small electric motor, it is still a bicycle and permitting them on the recreational trails will not somehow make it okay to drive your motorcycle or whatever other motorized vehicle you can think of on the trails.

In my experience, the only people I have ever observed riding e-bikes on the local recreational trails are people (usually couples) who appear to be too old or frail to safely enjoy pedaling the entire distance they are traveling. I also safely passed these slow moving e-bikes while on my mountian bike no less. The e-bikes allow people who would otherwise be incapable of enjoying our recreational trails to come out and enjoy the city from a bicycle.

I see no harm in allowing e-bikes on our recreational trails in order to allow a greater portion of the population to enjoy clean transportation outdoors and I will be emailing to the address mentioned in the article to express position as well.

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Score: 10
POedatFC
8:31 AM on November 9, 2011

By your way of thinking, we never should have allowed bicycles on the street. It will just lead to other non motorized traffic being allowed on the streets. How many violations are we going to let go uncontested by bicycles? Evidently the answer to that is any and all as we are still seeing bikes running stop signs and even stop lights, even in front of police cars.
People that own e-bikes pay the same taxes as everyone else and since the Federal Government has deemed that they are not considered a motor vehicle then they should be allowed on the bike paths and trails as any other bike. We can't go around splitting hairs on what is what or we will soon have a huge mess (bigger than what we have now). We have to allow the use of the trails by everyone.

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Score: 9
TrevrePaysar
12:11 PM on November 9, 2011

Linda, Granny on an e-bike or in a motorized wheelchair is of no concern to me. Your'e making an issue out of nothing.

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8)
LocK

http://www.coloradoan.com/article/20111114/NEWS01/111140325

Fort Collins City Council eyes trial period for ebikes on trails

Rule allowing electric-assist bicycles would start April 1

11:56 PM, Nov. 13, 2011

Written by Kevin Duggan

Controversy over electric-powered bicycles and how they might fit in on Fort Collins' popular recreational trail system keeps rolling along.

The Fort Collins City Council on Tuesday is scheduled to consider changes to city code that would allow the use of electric-assist bicycles on paved trails for a one-year trial period.

If approved, the rule changes would go into effect April 1. From then to March 31, 2013, the impact of electric-assist bikes on the trails and residents who use them will be assessed by city staff to determine whether they should be allowed on a permanent basis, said Marty Heffernan, director of culture, parks, recreation and environment for the city.

Supporters of allowing the devices say they are so similar to regular bicycles that they will make little difference on the trails.

Electric bikes are favored by older residents who want to remain active but may not have the strength to take on hills and long distances on a regular bicycle, supporters say.

But opponents worry electric bikes, which under the proposal could weigh up to 75 pounds and travel up to 20 mph, would make the trails more treacherous for pedestrians and other users.

The trails already are congested and have problems with bike riders who travel too fast, said Dottie Spivak, who opposes allowing electric bikes.

Sections of the Poudre River and Spring Creek trails have sharp curves that may be challenging for inexperienced riders, she said.

"The trails are too narrow and not properly designed," she said.

Mayor Karen Weitkunat, who is an avid bike rider, said she supports allowing electric-assist bikes on the trail.

"I think if people want to get out and be active, more power to them," she said. "We should find a way to make that happen."

The bikes are not likely to be attractive to younger riders because of their cost and weight, she said. Seniors feel safer riding on the trails than on city streets, she said.

Electric bikes come in a variety of styles. Electric-assist bikes match the effort applied through the pedals.

The code change would limit a bike's engine power to 750 watts and a top speed of 20 mph. Trailers that assist bikes also would be allowed.

The code language is designed to keep motopeds and scooters off the trails, Heffernan said.

"They would have to have pedals to be on the trails," he said. "They have to be bikes rather than straight electric machines."

Current code prohibits the devices, although residents with mobility problems may use them under the auspices of the federal Americans with Disabilities Act.

The assessment process will entail taking public feedback through online forms and surveys as well as going out and observing what's happening on the trails, Heffernan said.

Spivak said she opposes having a one-year trial period because once a practice is established, "it's hard to take away."

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Spivak is dottie...

My problems on trails is a group of people looking at you 4 or more wide and bloking the whole path 12-15ft. wide and not knowing how to make a hole so one can pass. Then put a dog on a leash across the trail and thinking they are the only ones. It's at lease 12ft. wide and they can't share ? Wake up... At lease I'm the only one with a ebike over 18mph or just about the only one on the road with a ebike, and i'm talking So. cal. I know flying down the trail at 30mph is alittle much but I'm at the end of the line as people problems.

My problems on trails is a group of people looking at you