Pretend gas was gone tomorrow -

What sort of bike would you build? (no buying a Zero or a Tesla!)

This forum is a bit funny; those with the skills and tools to build really awesome bikes don't have the time or the need for them. They concentrate on bikes that fill a gap between ICE bikes and normal bicycles.

But what if you had to build a bike to meet all of your transportation needs; suddenly you don't have a car or a motorcycle. You have to buy groceries on your ebike, go to the bar on your ebike, and go to work on your ebike. I want to know what the best and brightest here would do. Full on motorcycle, or ebike? Hub motor, or non-frock? RC lipo packs, or lifepo4? Built in charger? Solar panels? Handle bar mounted flame thrower?

so lets pretend:

cops don't have gas either, so no legal issues to worry about
you can still get any batteries and components you need - BUT you can't be sure you'll be able to get replacements - the bike needs to be able to last for the foreseeable future.
you have as much money to spend as you have right now - put yourself into credit card debt if need be
you have a limited time to build it - like you'll be out of gas in a month - so the bike needs to be running by then with all the kinks worked out

I'll go first.

Yuba Mundo or Surly big dummy - rear x5 hub - 30 or 40ah of 24s headway lifepo4 - magura throttle - mr16 halogen lights (buy extra bulbs!) - built in KP charger - meanwell chargers for home charging - signalab bms, but only used for maintenance balancing and to pull down the throttle line @ lvc (with this much capacity, I'm only worried about someone stealing the bike and destroying the battery pack!) - Cell logs for pack monitoring - shot gun holster slung from the top tube

I could build this bike and make it super reliable in under a month - mad max on a bicycle

This is pretty much how I have lived for over 2 years now, no car, no gas.

Certain things have been a challenge. Like dealing with bad weather. Sometimes not going out in it isn't an option. Hence the reason for this thread, http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=30346

For shopping, I use one of these and a backpack. http://www.walmart.com/ip/Allen-Sports-AST100-Bicycle-Trailer/15103189?findingMethod=rr

My dream though, is to build a fully functional (lights, ventilation) tadpole velomobile. Powered by 2 X5404 motors in a dual wheel setup on the back. Something similar to the dodge V10 motorcycle. Dual 72 Volt 30-40amp Headways or A123s.

crystalyte HS on 56v nominal with a 12fet. 40mph is fast enough to me.
Trailer hitch integrated into the torque plates.. and a trailer that can handle 100lbs.
Optional grab bar so that a bike rider could join up with me, choo choo train style.

Batteries wouldn't be lipo.. not with their 3 year lifespans. lithium titanate would be excellent.

I've already got mine, with CrazyBike2, and DayGlo Avenger as a backup. :lol:

But what I would build in this actual situation (i.e. the "Gas Bug" Iron Angel stories by (IIRC) Hawthorne) might be totally different, as the whole world would be VERY different than it is right now.

If gas was gone, electricity would be fairly hard to get. Solar etc would be the best source if you had that foresight. I'm assuming that natural gas, propane etc would also be gone.

Places near a coal generator would be better off, but what do the excavators use to dig it? They'd run on the coal of course, but it still wouldn't be a use all the electricity you want situation if gas was gone.

So you'd want an EV that was pretty efficient, but could carry stuff. Like this.

Or to carry just you, even more efficient tiny motor. Speed would be slow, to save wh. But what you'd actually be doing is the same thing they did in WW II. Vehicles ran on gas generators that they threw wood or anything combustible into, then ran the engine on the vapors produced.

dogman said:

But what you'd actually be doing is the same thing they did in WW II. Vehicles ran on gas generators that they threw wood or anything combustible into, then ran the engine on the vapors produced.

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gasifiers, awesome stuff. i read about one that a guy made using a fire extinguisher. out of the university of florida in 1981. ran it on what looks like a 150cc enduro. supposedly got 20 miles per pound of wood. i was thinkin, hook a pto up to the motor that runs a tiny chipper/shredder, and every forest becomes a gas station. hook the motor up to a generator, and you've got free electricity. then get an rv, and a full size gasifier. go nomadic. might do it even if gas DOESN'T disappear

let's see, I would build what comes down to the Bosch ebike system. So basically a crank motor (because of
best efficiency under all conditions), pedal assist only (so not a full on motorbike, I really love the 'superman'
feeling a pedal assist give).
Battery, probably NiMH as lifetime is much longer than lipo (Honda guarantees their NiMH packs for 8 years).

Being there's no gas, how is the availability of small portable nuclear generators ? Just checking

Somehow I think it'd be really cool to charge the ebike from a wood fired steam engine so this is
how I would charge the bike when there would be no gas.

Also realistic: buy a field, grow rapeseed for the oil and build a small diesel motor.

I more or less managed a similar situation when my wife's car died back in the early 90's. We both worked, and as such, she ended up with my truck for about a year which left me to using my non suspension MTB, and public transportation (bus and BART) as a means of getting to and from work (~20 miles @ 1 hr each way). This situation wasn't nearly as tough as I thought it would be (the biggest factor was the additional commute time). Meanwhile, I had several acquaintances remind me that a fair number of people exist, without owning a vehicle, in larger metropolitan areas (NYC, SF, etc).

Today, I would probably run a well made "modern" full suspension MTB with a 500-750w DD rear hub on a 36-48v 15-20ah LifePo4. I'd also make full use of a solar battery charger and regen.

BTW, our entire infrastructure and society (as we know it) would, imo, essentially collapse if "gas was gone tomorrow" due to our excessive dependence on fossil fuels. This is why I feel that our efforts in regards to electric bicycles, motorcycles, and vehicles are more than just a "hobby".

Theres no question, I would convert my car to full electric and shove as much battery in the trunk as I can fit. I wouldn't be opposed to putting in a 5-10kW solar setup on the roof as well.

ZOMGVTEK said:

Theres no question, I would convert my car to full electric and shove as much battery in the trunk as I can fit. I wouldn't be opposed to putting in a 5-10kW solar setup on the roof as well.

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are you aware of the sheer size of a 5-10kw system? last i remember, we were getting about 13-15 watts/sq ft., so, 350-700 sq ft?

I'm aware society would collapse if oil disappeared tomorrow. I guess I'm just assuming the government would monopolize what ever was left to keep the food and electricity coming!

Dogman, need I say how much I want your FS long tail? Talk about a dream bike!

I have to agree that if "gas were gone tomorrow" that 90%+ of the goods not to mention the services that we use today just to make the batteries would be gone, but if I suspend that fact for the sake of the discussion here is what I would build:

First off I would sell a number of assets to get together cash to built it, but I would make a large version of a trike "Velomobile" that would closer to the size of a golf cart with a mid-drive going to a NuVinci on the rear wheel with a high torque medium RPM motor (just a larger version of what I plan on putting on my current recumbent) and gear it for around 40MPH top speed, but typically I would be traveling closer to 30MPH average (especially loaded down with groceries) and this vehicle would be as aerodynamic as I could make it, it would have 2 seats side by side up front with a large rear cargo area that would be completely enclosed and made with Coroplast and sealed against the elements but with large windows that could be opened to allow air flow on the sides.

I would probably end up having this as a strictly LEV (no pedals since I have no realistic way to build/design something that complicated in the months time given)

This would be my "all weather" vehicle and I would continue to use my current bike for everything that didn't require the cargo capability of the LEV.

It would be very interesting if one day cars were no longer on the road, how many people would be riding around Wal-bikes and walking, while the rest of us on E-Bikes would be zipping by!

You don't need gas in my town. Every family owns an electric golfcart and uses the city-wide pathway to get to the store, work, etc (for those who work in town).

I sometimes go weeks without leaving town.

An agni properly setup (and with 2 spare rotors and 2 spare brush assemblies), running >650amps at 100v, fitted to my scratch built cro-mo race bicycle frame.

Buy a volt battery (hopefully from a wrecked one at an auto wrecking yard) and put together a 44Ah 24s pack made from those delicious LG chem NMC cells.


That would be all the ebike any reasonable person would ever need IMHO. 10's of thousands of cycles, never even be able to strain the setup, it would always run cool to the touch everywhere.

Hub's just smoke too easy IMHO.

Buy a volt battery (hopefully from a wrecked one at an auto wrecking yard) and put together a 44Ah 24s pack made from those delicious LG chem NMC cells.

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Day one of the oil apocalypse and I'm totally looting a volt or what ever hybrid I can find.
Off topic, but are there any hybrids that have been on the market long enough to make it to junk yards that have lithium batteries that would be of use to us?

I like the idea of an aerodynamic bike. Looks aside, a fairing is probably the easiest way to increase efficiency by a large percentage.

Any car on the market more than a few minutes has a decent chance of having one totalled at a junkyard within the day, the way many people drive. :lol:

A full velo fairing would be a nice thing to have, but it would not be practical here in AZ without a good source of water everywhere to refill the necessary evaporative cooling system for spring thru fall (only most of winter would not need one, and even some days of that might).

RE: the government dealing with the issues loss of gas causes...I don't think it's possible. Either they'd have to declare martial law and begin killing a lot of people for rule-breaking, which might itself start a revolution, or there'd be rioting on a scale nearly unimaginable (some of it for fun, some of it for looting, some of it for outrage, some of it for paranoia). I honestly expect that most people in cities would either not survive or they'd have to leave, at least until the end of the rioting, and the reorganization of what was left of society. Towns would be different, but large cities...buhbye. )


But back to the bike fun, assuming that we are dealing with the aftermath of all that and it's relatively peaceful again....

Good idea to charge with steam. Loot your neighbors wood pile, cut his tree down, whatever. Then run a stupid simple steam turbine of the junk yard wars variety to charge the batts.

Then you could resume normal activity, that is, riding further and faster. In that case, you'd still be liking a longtail though, to carry about 72v 40 ah of battery.

My frankenbike longtail was shockingly easy to make. I had found a fs bike with a steel Y frame, which made welding two bikes together easy. But the same thing could be done just as easy by bolting the connection with some steel reinforcing plates at the join near the seatpost. The other connection, welding the bb of the rear bike frame to the rear dropouts of the front one is easy. It just requires the front frame to be steel. So all you need is about 5 min of welding, a steel hardtail frame of ANY kind, and a FS frame of just about any kind.

The key thing was that the frame cut was made just long enough for the weight of the bike to push the connection tighter together. Cut the frame right, and the bike could be sat on before any welding was done at all. So the thing is naturaly strong.

I think theres two questions here. One is "If you decided to go car-free, what is your ultimate serious commuter bike?"

My last three moves have put me within bicycle distance to my work (as a back-up) but I still use a 4-cyl gasoline truck most of the time. While they are still reasonably available, snap up a Yuba Mundo. It was already selling better than the competing cargo-bikes, and the recent improvements make it the cargo-bike king...and its still not even the most expensive one.

Thudbuster seat, add one of the common downhill 1-1/8 inch forks, front disc brakes. For a battery, my most desired is a large 48V LiMn from ebikes.ca (Nothing wrong with cell_man A123 packs, they would be my second choice). The motor depends on your commute. I am of the opinion that 90% of E-bike commuters would be best served by a large rear geared-hub like the eZee from ebikes.ca or cell_man.

I am personally interested in promoting efficient drives. After several years of study here I have come to the conclusion that it would be hard to beat RWPs "Cortina Revisited". Use a largish low-kV RC motor with a single stage to a jackshaft. Another reduction in the final drive chain to the rear wheel. The rear wheel is a 3-speed hub wth two freewheels (one for the motor, one for the pedals).
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=27275
Miles' Moulton also gives the motor 3 gears, and due to his small-diameter wheel and extra-low kV motor, he has a single stage from motor to wheel.
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5313

Having a non-hub motor drive the BB (like Cyclone) is also an efficient drive. The non-hub resources stickie has the links to put together a generic BB-drive. edit: Matt (Recumpense) sells high-quality belted/chained reductions that would work in the previous two configurations specified. Reductions can be made by anyone with basic garage skills and tools.

The other question involves transportation without todays gasoline infrastructure. Liquid fuels won't go away, but they will be horribly expensive. Bio-diesel, Butanol, Ethanol, solar-PV panels to charge a short-range EV, mass transit expansion...but thats an entirely different thread.

edit: there is a tipping point that hasn't been discussed. Available oil doesnt have to be cut back 50% for there to be a martial law crisis. When oil availability is reduced to the point where the military/National-Guard, fire/paramedics and police have a hard time acquiring enough fuel, then oil-based fuels to the public will become restricted regardless of our willingness to pay inflated prices. The aforementioned entities will have first-level priority over any available fuels.

The majority of people live in the cities, and the majority of food is grown/raised in the country, Movement of food stuffs will have a second level priority to reduce rioting. Mass transit will probably also have second-level priority to push the public onto govt-controlled transportation to work.

The public will have a very low fuel-access priority when "Rome is burning" as they say...

My work break nearly over... :|

I would add some additions to my set up: 48 volt LiFePO4 11.5 AH, 500 MAC rear motor, Y-Frame Large trailer and waterproof, lockable aluminium Zarges box.

Those additions would be:

• A Veltop canopy.
  Goretex trousers.
  Thudbuster Seatpost.
  At least another 20ah of battery that I could place in the trailer.
  An extension handle for bringing longer loads (timber etc..).
  Spare motor gears and a clutch.
  A second charger.
  Finally, 1,600 lumen Magicshine lights.

That's why I bought a '11 Yuba Mundo v4 cargo bike.

* 40Ah A123 pouch batteries
* Thudbuster seatpost as MUST!
* tow folding tent trailer include mini cargo on top of the folding tent trailer.
* stock up the spares for the replacement
* dry food backup
* try build a Hydrogen generator convert fuel

Don't forget the solar blanket for charger or electricity generating.

Without gas...my bike would be ultra simple, lightweight, single speed, cromoly 26" mtb, no suspension, fitted with a direct drive hub motor without halls, 500W controller with 36V Konion lithiums/or ni-cads. Charging will be solar, since electricity will be unreliable or non-existent. It will be stealth and it will only go 20 mph or less, so it will not attract too much attention from the bad guys.

It will be duplicated-2 ebikes with inter-changeable parts in case it breaks down. Without gas, it is impossible to buy anything--think shortages.

Also, since every looter and bad guys want my bike so I will be packing a Glock 23 and a folding Sub 2k in .40 cal

I think my E-BOB and my Catrike Trail would sustain my needs for awhile.....

lcyclist said:

Without gas...my bike would be ultra simple, lightweight, single speed, cromoly 26" mtb, no suspension, fitted with a direct drive hub motor without halls, 500W controller with 36V Konion lithiums/or ni-cads. Charging will be solar, since electricity will be unreliable or non-existent. It will be stealth and it will only go 20 mph or less, so it will not attract too much attention from the bad guys.

It will be duplicated-2 ebikes with inter-changeable parts in case it breaks down. Without gas, it is impossible to buy anything--think shortages.

Also, since every looter and bad guys want my bike so I will be packing a Glock 23 and a folding Sub 2k in .40 cal

Click to expand...

Remember, those bad guys will prob want your bike also. Even with the Glock, you'll need to go faster than 20mph.

Pure said:

lcyclist said:

Without gas...my bike would be ultra simple, lightweight, single speed, cromoly 26" mtb, no suspension, fitted with a direct drive hub motor without halls, 500W controller with 36V Konion lithiums/or ni-cads. Charging will be solar, since electricity will be unreliable or non-existent. It will be stealth and it will only go 20 mph or less, so it will not attract too much attention from the bad guys.

It will be duplicated-2 ebikes with inter-changeable parts in case it breaks down. Without gas, it is impossible to buy anything--think shortages.

Also, since every looter and bad guys want my bike so I will be packing a Glock 23 and a folding Sub 2k in .40 cal

Click to expand...

Remember, those bad guys will prob want your bike also. Even with the Glock, you'll need to go faster than 20mph.

Click to expand...

Yeah, we need to start organizing our fellow E-Bikers into our own "E-Biker's Club!" (maybe even have jackets or something ) and stick together, while helping others build their own too! (same as we do here, but even more on a local scale as the interest in our hobby would increase 100X)

We'd have to make sure we get people like Justin, Lyen, Stevo, Doctorbass, LFP, Methods, JRH, GGoodrum (and many more who escape my poor memory) to help keep our connections with the right manufacturers over-seas and here in the US so we can make sure we keep things going for the E-Revolution! 8)

Safety in numbers, and if you think about it, the "Mad Max" scenario isn't really what we are about, we would be helping others put together their bikes, and instead of having to worry so much about "bad guys" stealing our stuff, it would be more about others looking to us to help them build their own, and lets face it, most "bad guys" are going after the weak, not people like us who aren't sheep and know how to defend ourselves.

Look at all the people who helped around the country with victims of hurricane Katrina, our's is a community of builders and rebels, but more the kind that think out of the box, not the kind to build a "better gun" to protect what we have, but to build a better society to join us in the E-revolution!