Reports from Eurobike 2011

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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full-throttle   10 MW

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Re: Reports from Eurobike 2011

Post by full-throttle » Sep 03 2011 5:43pm

panurge wrote:Expected Specs for the future pinion motorGB
Thanks for that!
800W, 8 gears, 4.6kg is actually very good. Wonder if the crank arms are included in the weight.

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panurge   10 kW

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Re: Reports from Eurobike 2011

Post by panurge » Sep 04 2011 11:38am

full-throttle wrote:
panurge wrote:Expected Specs for the future pinion motorGB
Thanks for that!
800W, 8 gears, 4.6kg is actually very good. Wonder if the crank arms are included in the weight.
Not, Crank arms are not included and they are 364g, the shifter is 115g, only the 24t/30t sprocket is included in the 2700/4600grams. (normal/motorised) :)

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Miles   100 GW

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Re: Reports from Eurobike 2011

Post by Miles » Sep 08 2011 12:59am

Extracts from "Show daily" reports:
http://www.electricbikemag.net/showStor ... torynum=91

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Re: Reports from Eurobike 2011

Post by gogo » Sep 08 2011 5:08am

Miles wrote:Extracts from "Show daily" reports:
http://www.electricbikemag.net/showStor ... torynum=91
I'm starting to catch on to bike terminology. Cargo = bikes for fat arses.
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Lock   10 GW

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Re: Reports from Eurobike 2011

Post by Lock » Sep 10 2011 5:45am

Quite strange...
panurge wrote:Last tranche.....
Image
These folks:
http://hettlagedrive.de/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWXxiXvfBjg
If you like this message feel free to donate BeerCoins (BTC) to:
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Canada, eh?

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JennyB   1 kW

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Re: Reports from Eurobike 2011

Post by JennyB » Sep 10 2011 6:35am

Lock wrote:Quite strange...
Hagen infinitely variable chain wheel.
A transmission for bicycles and the like which includes a plurality of radially displaceable sprocket members with means for controlling the radial position of these sprockets members which positioning means includes a pair of plate members having reversed, identically curved paths thereon with the sprocket members mounted at the junction of the paths with means for controlling the relative speed between the two plates whereby the paths will be shifted with respect to one another and their junction point will increase or decrease radially thus moving the sprocket radially inwardly or outwardly.
Discussed in Bicycling Science Whitt & Wilson 1974 page 147.

No doubt Miles can find a 19th Century example! :)

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Miles   100 GW

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Re: Reports from Eurobike 2011

Post by Miles » Sep 10 2011 7:15am

JennyB wrote:No doubt Miles can find a 19th Century example! :)
:)

There was the "Protean" expanding chainwheel of 1894.

Or the "Paradox" by WD Wansbrough, which appeared in 1901. This could be expanded or contracted in one tooth segments, from 20t to 26t (1" chain...).

Wansbrough patent:
Attachments
Wansbrough GB190117153A.pdf
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Miles   100 GW

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Re: Reports from Eurobike 2011

Post by Miles » Sep 11 2011 7:01am


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Samd   1.21 GW

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Re: Reports from Eurobike 2011

Post by Samd » Sep 11 2011 8:52pm

Looks like lots of knockoffs of the Bosch knockoff of the Aprilia Enjoy there. :P
http://ballaratebikes.com/

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"Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing that a 165mm rear shock can't deliver 220mm of rear swingarm travel." - Oprah Winfrey.

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Miles   100 GW

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Re: Reports from Eurobike 2011

Post by Miles » Sep 11 2011 9:16pm

Why "knockoff"?

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Re: Reports from Eurobike 2011

Post by sk8norcal » Sep 11 2011 11:12pm

Miles wrote:Extracts from "Show daily" reports:
http://www.electricbikemag.net/showStor ... torynum=91
interesting article...

"speed pedelecs" for 500w and above...
A discussion on 'fast pedelecs', a category of e-bike not yet permitted in the UK:

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Re: Reports from Eurobike 2011

Post by sk8norcal » Sep 12 2011 2:41am




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gogo   10 MW

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Re: Reports from Eurobike 2011

Post by gogo » Sep 12 2011 4:33am

^I wonder if the throttles are available separately. Wow, a Rolhoff hub. $$$$
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Re: Reports from Eurobike 2011

Post by adrian_sm » Sep 12 2011 4:48am

Don't know about the throttle but the LCD display can be found here:
http://www.aliexpress.com/product-gs/38 ... alers.html
Build #1 ~28kg ~ 700w Avanti Hardtail Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway. ~5500 kms to date. (retired)
Build #2 ~30kg ~2000w Giant AC Dually Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway + 6s10Ah LiPo = 70V. ~15000 kms to date [SOLD]
Build #3 ~13kg ~2000w Commuter Booster <1kg Friction Drive
Build #??? ~21kg ~1500w Adrian's Bafang BPM Hardtail MTB Bafang BPM code12, 15s LiPo, ~40kph, ~30kms

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Samd   1.21 GW

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Re: Reports from Eurobike 2011

Post by Samd » Sep 14 2011 1:25am

Knockoff = copy.
http://ballaratebikes.com/

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"Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing that a 165mm rear shock can't deliver 220mm of rear swingarm travel." - Oprah Winfrey.

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Miles   100 GW

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Re: Reports from Eurobike 2011

Post by Miles » Sep 14 2011 1:36am

Samd wrote:Knockoff = copy.
Errrrrr... Thanks. :roll: :)

I don't see any evidence of copying, even.

Do you think Aprilia were the first to drive the bottom bracket?

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Re: Reports from Eurobike 2011

Post by Samd » Sep 14 2011 4:37am

Why do I get the feeling you are about to tell me what you think?
http://ballaratebikes.com/

ImageImageImage
"Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing that a 165mm rear shock can't deliver 220mm of rear swingarm travel." - Oprah Winfrey.

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Miles   100 GW

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Re: Reports from Eurobike 2011

Post by Miles » Sep 14 2011 5:21am

Well, I'm not sure it matters very much but, TGA in the UK were making bikes and trikes with a BB drive before Aprilia. I should imagine there are other examples, it's a pretty obvious direction.

Image

I would have thought that it was better to reserve the word "knockoff" for more specific cases, where there is genuine plagiarism? The Bosch and Aprilia examples have little in common, beyond the base concept.

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Re: Reports from Eurobike 2011

Post by Hillhater » Sep 14 2011 5:59am

I am sure there were others too , but Aprilia were one of the first to design and manufacture a dedicated custom Integrated powered B Bracket drive. to say nothing of a custom bike frame and control system package ( Pedelec, torque sensing, speed sensing, pre set power levels etc)
Few other Ebikes of that period were purpose designed, most were "adapted" conventional bikes ( like the Electrobike which used a "Cyclone" type add on drive)
Considering the Aprilia design was conceived in the mid '90's ( best part of 20 yrs ago !), it was extremely advanced for the time, its major limitations even today being only its Brushed motor system and the Nmh battery technology.
I suspect the bike was a commercial failure for Aprilia ( sales were not huge) but it was a very good design.
Are you aware of any other "integrated" powered BBracket bikes available pre 2000?.. Miles ?
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Miles   100 GW

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Re: Reports from Eurobike 2011

Post by Miles » Sep 14 2011 6:14am

Hillhater wrote:Are you aware of any other "integrated" powered BBracket bikes available pre 2000?.. Miles ?
Nothing commercially available comes to mind. I recall several patents, though. Development of the Optibike started in 1998.

Would you say the Bosch was a "knockoff" of the Aprilia? That the Daum et al are "knockoffs" of the Bosch?

[Samd, I realise you were just responding to Lebowski....]

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Re: Reports from Eurobike 2011

Post by Samd » Sep 14 2011 5:24pm

Yeah, I was. But I was wondering if you could help yourself or not. I got my answer. :P

Silliness aside, I get frustrated when there are so many media reports lately of expensive over engineered bottom bracket drive bikes. I find the pics from Eurobike inspiring in an engineering sense, but not the product positioning within a society that needs to get out of cars.

(I think) The future existed ten years ago. I just bought yet another Aprilia Enjoy on ebay this week. A quick retrofit of controller and LiPos and I have a good looking, quiet, dependable, reasonably fast 1100W bike for well under a grand. And it invites lots of inquiry. It also has a bit of brand heritage in the Aprilia name.

Plenty of money left over for a solar grid and batteries by recycling an Aprilia, compared to the Bosch offerings.

Being a dutchman I guess I see cycling for the denim wearing masses, not for the carbon fibre and lycra clad niches. Not a dig at anyone in particular - just a social comment.
http://ballaratebikes.com/

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"Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing that a 165mm rear shock can't deliver 220mm of rear swingarm travel." - Oprah Winfrey.

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Miles   100 GW

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Re: Reports from Eurobike 2011

Post by Miles » Sep 14 2011 6:46pm

Samd wrote:Yeah, I was. But I was wondering if you could help yourself or not. I got my answer. :P
:mrgreen:

How much would the Enjoy be if it were available now, I wonder?

The Bosch drive unit seems a pretty mundane bit of engineering with a hefty price premium.
I bet buyers will also be encouraged to take out an extended warranty, service contract etc....

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Re: Reports from Eurobike 2011

Post by Hillhater » Sep 14 2011 8:13pm

Miles wrote::mrgreen:

How much would the Enjoy be if it were available now, I wonder?....
I believe the Aprilia has more "engineering" cost in it than the Optibike !..
... but they were produced on a larger volume basis, so retail cost is tricky to place ?
Actually , you can still sometimes buy new, boxed , Enjoys, from "Alibaba" sources ..?? old stock, "knock off's" ???
http://www.asia.ru/en/ProductInfo/1422840.html
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Re: Reports from Eurobike 2011

Post by Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh » Sep 14 2011 10:21pm

Miles wrote:The Bosch drive unit seems a pretty mundane bit of engineering with a hefty price premium.
that's the result of the optibike halo effect why i rail on about it.
take something otherwise ordinary, dress it up with rhinestones & glitter then present as if it's the greatest thing since pneumatic tyres.
the cherry on top is an obscene price tag deliberately crafted to tap into the typical consumer's erroneous thought process of "gee, if it costs that much it just gots to be really good."
this hasn't gone unnoticed by the new ebike players who surely must say to themselves "well ours is waay better than that" and price accordingly to this optibike 'benchmark'.
so now we all get to reap the benefit of paying thru the nose.


oh yeah, don't overlook they also knocked-off aprilias pneu-fangled pneumatic tyres. :roll:
aprilia must have forgot to apply for a patent.
here's the one tru religion original patent-holder for bb drive. :mrgreen:
espacenetDocument.pdf
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