Help with installing the last 400 series crystalyte hub.

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mwhens   1 W

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Help with installing the last 400 series crystalyte hub.

Post by mwhens » Sep 02 2011 10:15am

I finally have all parts needed for my e-bike conversion.
I have the last 400 series Crystalyte hub motor that was in stock at Crystalyte Europe, a 408 front hub.
I'am ready to install it, but I like to do that with some assistance from forum members.
My previous discussion about what to buy: http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... lit=mwhens.

First, the hardest part (I think) installing the hub motor on my alloy fork.
These are the parts I have for this job...
(I named all the parts for referrence)

First, the 408 front hub with 28"rim...
Image

With the hub came these parts...
Image

They advised me C washers, so I ordered them to...
Image

And I have some extra parts, not sure why...
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And the torque arms...
Image

First of all, I can't find intructions.
Maybe someone knows a place where to find good instructions for installing the hub?

The first thing I needed to know, how to position the hub, cable left or right?
I found some picture, I believe when you are sitting on the bike, the hub cable is on the left side, correct?
For installing the hub, I at least need the C washer (I called C1 in the pictures).
The C washer filled the hole perfectly and create a flat area for a ring or bolt...
Image

With still only a C washer, I can place the torque arm like this...
Image

But I still have a ring and some kind of plate that came with the hub motor, don't know how or where to place them.
Also, when looking at the side, you see I don't have allot of axel length left for the bolt. And thats without those H2 and H3 parts (see pictures)...
Image

Image

I first need to know what parts I need, and where and in wich order to place them.
Any input is welcome :)

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Re: Help with installing the last 400 series crystalyte hub.

Post by jimw1960 » Sep 02 2011 11:36am

That H1 is a nylock nut, so you can do without using the H3 lock washer. With the torque arm you can do without using the H2 square washer. So, everything should fit.

I have a 408 front motor. It works great on 48 volts. With a 28" wheel, you will not have much power on hills, but you will have a fast top speed. The wires are on the left side on my bike.

Here is a link to some assembly instructions for Crystalyte motors. http://electricrider.com/docs/Crystalyt ... _Guide.pdf
And also an owner's manual (what they call the "Roadrunner" is actually a 408). http://electricrider.com/docs/Crystalyt ... Manual.pdf
Last edited by jimw1960 on Sep 02 2011 1:17pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Help with installing the last 400 series crystalyte hub.

Post by jimw1960 » Sep 02 2011 1:16pm

One other thing. Even though you have the c-washer in the hole, it looks like the torque arm is resting against the fork lip and not the c-washer. If that is true, when you tighten the nut (H1) it will press the torque arm against the fork lip. You should not let that happen, or you may crack the fork. Make sure the force of the nut is on the c-washer.

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Re: Help with installing the last 400 series crystalyte hub.

Post by mwhens » Sep 02 2011 3:35pm

Thanks for your help.

The C washer and fork lip seems to be at the same depth.
But you say I need to file a small layer of the lip so it rest 100% only on the washer?

I also had the idea because the nut's nylon almost don't get to the axel because of the axel lenght.
Is it a good idea to use threat lockener?

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Re: Help with installing the last 400 series crystalyte hub.

Post by dogman dan » Sep 02 2011 3:48pm

I'm seeing the same thing. It looks like the C washers are just short of tall enough to really be sure the nut is pressuring them, and not the forks. In the second pic, it even looks like the plate is tilted ever so slightly. This is exactly the tricky bit that leads people to fracturing forks, if not their teeth. One you power up, and of that unseen looseness allows the axle to move enough to break the dropouts. You need really solid flat perfect contact so the nut will never ever loosen.

One option would be to grind washer E2 down into a narrower washer that fits nicely within the outline of the fork cup. Or find a thinner washer if a thick one will make you lose too many threads. Or file the cup down 1 mm so the torque plate fits better.

With that size axle, I don't think you need to file the dropouts deeper, like you have to with 14 mm axles. That looks ok to me.

You have the torque arm just how I'd do it, for that fork.

H2 and H3 should not be used. Your choice which nut you prefer, either one works. I'd use the one that seems to fit the threads on the axle nice and snug. If one is loose, use the tight one. Loose strips out easier.

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Re: Help with installing the last 400 series crystalyte hub.

Post by mwhens » Sep 02 2011 4:05pm

You are correct, on the second picture he was not flat on the washer.
On the first picture I had to file a verry small spot away, I have to do that on the other side to...
Image
I will remove 0,5 mm of the lips. I make sure it's not in contact with the lips.
They seem to be exactly on the same depth, so 0,5mm must be fine.
When I have done that I wil make another picture.

Is it dangarous to file an alloy fork, wil it rust?

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Re: Help with installing the last 400 series crystalyte hub.

Post by biohazardman » Sep 02 2011 4:13pm

I would agree with the others but add make sure the fork rests square on the inside also. I had the same problem with the Nylock not having ehough axle to lock as you have. Went to the local harware store and found a nice Stainless steel nut and lockwasher that did better. They may have a washer that will need less grinding also. Or file things like you did. Take your time to do it right. Your life and well being depend on it. Nice pics by the way they help alot.
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Re: Help with installing the last 400 series crystalyte hub.

Post by dogman dan » Sep 03 2011 8:04am

There ya go. Amazingly, that tiny bit of fork you filed off could have caused a loose nut, and disaster later. Don't worry about the nylock engaging, just use whichever nut fits the axle the best. Those axle threads are crude as hell, and the important thing is a good fit so you don't strip the axle. Tighten nice and snug, but not with a wrench much longer than your hand.

Done right, with nice flat contact, you should have no problem. The contact between the fork and the shoulders is cruicial too. On my alloy fork installations the motor has a very narrow axle shoulder to bear on. So in that case, with the 9c motors you need inner washers too, and have to file the axle shoulder to get the axle shoulder length back on spec.

So pay attention to that too, if the axle digs into the forks a lot, you'll need some inner washers to spread the force. .

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Re: Help with installing the last 400 series crystalyte hub.

Post by mwhens » Sep 03 2011 8:26am

Thanks for your comments,
The contact between the fork and the shoulders is cruicial too. On my alloy fork installations the motor has a very narrow axle shoulder to bear on. So in that case, with the 9c motors you need inner washers too, and have to file the axle shoulder to get the axle shoulder length back on spec.
So pay attention to that too, if the axle digs into the forks a lot, you'll need some inner washers to spread the force. .
No sure, but maybe you are talking about how the axle rest on the fork?
The wheel seems to be centered in the frame.
But the axle does not rest completly flat on the alloy. But I gues thats normal because of a thicker piece on the axle on the right side of the hub (the one without the cable)...

Image

Because of this thicker piece on the axle, there is a little space between the axle and fork for half it's depth...

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The left side of the hub (with the cable) does not have this thicker piece on the axle...

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And seems to sit nicely on the alloy, the total depth...

Image

To fill the gap, I don't see a way to do that.
I can try to make a small piece of metal that fits, but if it's not exactly the same hight, it wil rest only on that filler, or does not do nothing at all.

## update ##
Even without the "axle shoulder" the axle was not resting completly on the fork, I filed a tiny bit away to change the shape a little, and it fits perfectly now.
But the left side still has the gap ofcourse. But the gap is a little bit smaller because of the shape change of the hole.
Wil it be ok to let it rest on the left side, only on the axle shoulder?
Or would you file the axle shoulder of the axle it self?
I think there are a few options posible here...

1) leave it rest only on the small axle shoulder alone.
2) file the axle shoulder away. (if the metal is not to hard it is posible).
3) create a gap in the aloy hole for the axle shoulder to rest in (verry hard to do I think).
4) fill the gap somehow (verry hard to do I think).

i think option 2 is the best. But it is posible the metal is to hard to file. Or after it's gone, the wheel is not centered anymore. If thats the case, I need to file the alloy hole on the other side a little more the get it centered again.

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Re: Help with installing the last 400 series crystalyte hub.

Post by dogman dan » Sep 03 2011 11:12am

However you manage it, you want the axle straight in the dropouts. That is, fitting the same on both sides. Either the dropout can be deepened, or file the axle shoulder till both sides are identical. I'd file the axle.

The axle shoulders on the flat sides of the axle look deep enough to me, to not need the inner safety washers that are needed on the 9c motors.

Looking good. Time taken now is well worth it. Along the way, you are providing great pics, that can replace the ones that were lost when I did a thread on how to install a 9c motor on alloy forks. Thanks.

One last thing, I just noticed you don't have rim tape on the rim. Put something there, even if it's just duct tape. Flats on the motor wheel are a pain, so don't be getting any for lack of rim tape.

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Re: Help with installing the last 400 series crystalyte hub.

Post by mwhens » Sep 03 2011 1:34pm

I wil use a rim tape, good idea.

I filed a small layer away from the lips, and the torque arm rest fully on the C washer now.
And the axle shoulder has been filed of. No problems there...

Image

Image

Image

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I can place the torque arm like this...

Image

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Some questions...

1) Do I need to use one hoseclamp or both (indicated red)?
2) There is a little movement posible (indicated position1 and 2). It's only a verry little movement, less than my lines indicates. But both the axle to the fork, and the axle to the torque arms have the same movement space.
It's hard to explain, but should I place the axle in it's max position the way it wants to turn when going forward, in that case, the axle pushes against the fork and torque arm? Or the oposite way, so at first the torque arm hold the axle back, when the torque arm fails, the axle turns a little bit, and then hit the fork.
3) I have borrowed a torcofix than can be setup to turn nuts from 10 to 100 N m. With how much force do I need to fasten the nut? And the nut for the torque arm?
4) I also have borrowed high quality threadlocker. Is it smart to use? Or is it imposible to get it of later, for replacing a tire for example?
5) You can see on the picture the torque arm is not perfectly in the middle (widest point) of the fork. It may slide or wants to go of angle when tighten the hoseclamps. I can try to file a flat surface the torque arm can rest on? Or some inner tire material between the fork and torque arm?

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Re: Help with installing the last 400 series crystalyte hub.

Post by dogman dan » Sep 03 2011 5:24pm

Looking better and better. None of that metal forming the cup is important for strength. It's for lawyers and lawsuits from QR hubs. Snug up the torque arm in the direction the wheel moves in forward motion. That's position 2. The axle will be trying to go the opposite way. Use two hose clamps if you can fit them on the arm. Once you have a nut on the axle, you can bend the arm end of the torqe arm over to meet the fork more centered. Iv'e never needed any locktight, but it shouldn't hurt to use some. I don't know what to say about nm. I use a 6 inch handle wrench, and snug it up moderately tight. Wait a minuite or two, then try to snug it up just a hair tighter. With a 9" wrench I have stripped axles. I'm not sure how to describe it. It's not quite as tight as you may do lug nuts, but not as light as you would do a tiny 10mm bolt on an aluminum engine thread. Don't try to get it as tight as the axle nuts on a car CV joint, that's for sure.

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Re: Help with installing the last 400 series crystalyte hub.

Post by jimw1960 » Sep 03 2011 7:00pm

I would guess about 30 to 40 Nm torque would be good. That's about 23 to 30 (ft-lbs for us Americans.)

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Re: Help with installing the last 400 series crystalyte hub.

Post by mwhens » Sep 04 2011 3:19am

Good idea, I can bend the torque arm (thinner piece).
I can bend it two ways. Try to bend it to the forks highest point (position 2).
But I think it's much easier to bend it to position 1, I don't think it wil slide away this way...

Image

In the Crystalyte home assembly guide I have read...
If you have a torque wrench, tighten the nuts to 45 ft lbs for RoadRunner and Sparrow, 50 ft lbs for Phoenix.
So if I have the ReadRunner, I need 45 ft lbs of torque.
I found a converter tool: http://www.convertunits.com/from/ft+lb/to/N+m
45 ft lbs = 61 n m.
Seems like a allot. This verry big torque wrench can only go to 100 n m. But they sell them up to 300 n m, I gues it's correct then.
http://www.b-fast.com/specials/offer.asp?offer=39

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Re: Help with installing the last 400 series crystalyte hub.

Post by dogman dan » Sep 04 2011 6:24am

Position 2. Bear in mind, with a long handle like there is on the torque wrench, you may not feel the threads starting to mush.

Try 25 or 30 to start, then wait a bit for any deformation of washers, or digging in of the axle shoulders on the alloy to occur, then try to turn the nut just a hair further.

Whatever the torque is, it needs to be less than needed to mush the threads. They are that crude, and if the nut to axle fit is slopply enough, it may mush at a lot less force than you expect. Stripping the threads is easier to do with the 12 mm axles.

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Re: Help with installing the last 400 series crystalyte hub.

Post by FMB42 » Sep 04 2011 6:52am

The cuts you made on the aluminum dropout should have had a radius to them (as seen while looking directly at the end of the axle). Those cuts should have also had an inside radius to them. What you have could possibly result in a serious "stress riser".

You should also take great care in removing any and all traces of the raw "saw" cut lines on that aluminum dropout. Failure to do so could result in the risk of a fracture along the saw cut mark/lines.

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Re: Help with installing the last 400 series crystalyte hub.

Post by mwhens » Sep 04 2011 8:08am

I'am installing the wheel now, but I'am not 100% sure if the wheel is going to turn the right way.
Some pictures show the cable side on the right, some on the left.
I'am installing it the way, when you sit on your bike, the cable is left.
Is this absolutly the right way?

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Re: Help with installing the last 400 series crystalyte hub.

Post by FMB42 » Sep 04 2011 8:30am

I suggest that you assemble the wheel followed by torquing the wheel nuts as previously mentioned.

You should then immediately disassemble the wheel followed by checking the fork dropouts for cracks.

BTW, I would also strongly suggest that you wear a full face helmet while riding that bike of yours.

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Re: Help with installing the last 400 series crystalyte hub.

Post by mwhens » Sep 04 2011 9:11am

OMG,

You mean with alloy forks 45 ft lbs is to much?
I fasten them in 4 steps, left side, right side, left side...
The last step was just a hair to 45ft lbs.
Seems to fit good.
I checked everything I can check, and I do not see any cracks.
Not on the fork lips, and I can see part of the pressed aloy...

Image

Image

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I have loosen the nuts to prevent any cracks getting formed.
But if 45 ft lbs is to much, with how much force should I tighten them?
If it's posible I do not disasemble the torque arm to check for cracks because I need to order new rings for the torque arm, you can only use those ones.
I don't think it is needed, I can fasten them less this time to 30 ft lbs?

### update ###

I have disasembled the torque arms.
I have inspected the alloy fork, no cracks anywhere.
The alloy piece thats pressed against the hub and C washer is 6,8mm thick.
I don't think it wil crack verry fast under pressure.
But before I can assembled it again I need new rings (T7 in the picture).
Hopefully I have them tomorrow to try again. But I still need to know with what force to tighten them.
If 45 ft lbs is advised on this hub, what to use on alloy, 35 ft lbs?

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Re: Help with installing the last 400 series crystalyte hub.

Post by dogman dan » Sep 04 2011 10:41am

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant that the nut could strip the axle easily. Those clyte axles are notoriously cheap and soft. So the nut, which is supposed to always be softer than the bolt, may be harder than the bolt. Lots of people have stripped the axle bolt on these motors. I backed off a lot on torque after ruining several motors that way.

Looks like you are good, and nothing wrong at all with a dissasembly and inspection. Now you know it's good, and cleary 45 wasn't too much. The fork should be good for whatever torque you choose, since it's mounted straight, using the right methods.

So tighen er back up, and you are ready for a ride if you have the battery.

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Re: Help with installing the last 400 series crystalyte hub.

Post by mwhens » Sep 04 2011 10:51am

I think there is a misunderstanding...

BMF42 posted...
I suggest that you assemble the wheel followed by torquing the wheel nuts as previously mentioned.

You should then immediately disassemble the wheel followed by checking the fork dropouts for cracks.

BTW, I would also strongly suggest that you wear a full face helmet while riding that bike of yours.
I think what he means is that by compessing the alloy that hard (45 ft lbs) the alloy can crack by the compression force. Not the axle stripping.
I think BMF42 thinks 45 ft lbs is to much pressing force for alloy forks.
But what force should I use then?

I need to wait for new torque arm rings, so I just want to take the time to clear up something.
To be absolutly sure my wheel turns the correct way, on what side should the hub cable be on?
I think it's left like I installed it before (not tested it yet).
But there are some picture that indicates otherwise somehow...

Here some right side cables...

Image

Image

Image

And some left side cables...

Image

Image

How is that posible?
Last edited by mwhens on Sep 04 2011 11:21am, edited 2 times in total.

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dogman dan   100 GW

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Re: Help with installing the last 400 series crystalyte hub.

Post by dogman dan » Sep 04 2011 10:59am

I couldn't say. I just use my mexican torque wrench. A short crescent that hurts the hand to put too much force on, and gives a better feel to when a nut just starts to strip.

I think you just proved that your particular fork can take 45. If not, too late now anyway. My best guess is that I don't take mine to much more than 35 ft lbs. It's definitely nowhere near 10 lbs, more than that. And nowhere near what you do to an CV axle nut, 100-150.

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Re: Help with installing the last 400 series crystalyte hub.

Post by mwhens » Sep 04 2011 11:27am

Ok, if BMF 42 does not provide me with different torques, I think I stick with 35 ft lbs (47 n m).

But how is it posible some have there cable on the right side and some on the left?

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Re: Help with installing the last 400 series crystalyte hub.

Post by FMB42 » Sep 04 2011 12:26pm

I can't say what the axle nuts should be torqued to. However, you should be able to locate the recommended axle nut torque from the motor manufacturer or, from others (i.e. dogman, etc) who are knowledgeable with these motors.

All I'm saying is that you could possibly crack the alloy dropout during while torquing the axle nuts down. This is why I suggested that you remove the wheel in order to double check for any signs of damaged and/or cracked dropouts.

The bottom line here is that cutting, drilling, and/or filling alloy structural components should be done with extreme caution.

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Re: Help with installing the last 400 series crystalyte hub.

Post by TylerDurden » Sep 04 2011 12:29pm

mwhens wrote:But how is it posible some have there cable on the right side and some on the left?
On front hubs, the motor rotation can be reversed without much issue.

(Reversing and "flopping" rear hubs relocates the freewheel.)
Have a Nice Day,

TD

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