E-bikes running with the Gas-bikes

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
User avatar
etard   1 MW

1 MW
Posts: 1935
Joined: Aug 03 2008 3:28pm
Location: Redlands, CA

Re: Blended e-bike gas bike racing

Post by etard » Oct 30 2011 8:16pm

The best ebike turnout was the Death race last year, how many showed up? Say 12 running ebikes on the course, with 3 classes that makes 4 people per class: BORING!! Bracketing vs 1 person: even more BORING!

It would be easy to keep people honest under 1000w, just put Luke on it with a watt meter, do a 100 meter run and if it exceeds 1000watts, you have just earned a go in the unlimited class. :mrgreen:

Where is Safe at, we need his expertise. :lol:
Four wheels moves the body, Two wheels moves the soul
Thanks to Justin @ http://www.ebike.ca He brings the soul to ES

John in CR   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 14318
Joined: May 20 2008 12:58am
Location: Paradise

Re: Blended e-bike gas bike racing

Post by John in CR » Oct 30 2011 9:11pm

1kw limit. You guys need to hook up with Safe, and while you're at it go ahead and organize some mobility scooter racing too. :twisted:

User avatar
MadRhino   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 6442
Joined: Sep 03 2010 5:28pm
Location: Montreal QC Canada

Re: Blended e-bike gas bike racing

Post by MadRhino » Oct 30 2011 9:29pm

John in CR wrote:1kw limit. You guys need to hook up with Safe, and while you're at it go ahead and organize some mobility scooter racing too. :twisted:
:D

I was going to say something like that, after realizing that it wasn't a typo and they were really talking about a 1000 w limit.

Pedal ability is a good way to even the chances though, if one has to pedal the first lap. Heavy motorcycle like setups would be handicaped by being slow on the first lap.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street:
Trek Session 10 mod. Variable geometry. 70mph
Dirt:
Santa Cruz V10. 50mph

SoSauty   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 339
Joined: Mar 17 2009 11:40pm

Re: Blended e-bike gas bike racing

Post by SoSauty » Oct 30 2011 11:11pm

Actually, hard to be serious about this unless you want to, and have not yet done so, prove yourself in the open e-bike class. Mobility scooter racing, hey, I haven't thought of that one :D

I got to playing around with the hub simulator to see how low-amp a controller I needed to run a 2nd race with the small 4 strokes. At 18S I kept going down and down to less amps. To keep a 9C under 31mph, I'd have to run a 20amp controller and then sit straight up on the radared straight :!: Even then, 1400watts might run 30-31mph.

Most, IMO would enjoy spectating a small motor class with a pedal to 1st corner requirement, then get to vote on the biggest sandbagger at lunch break (HillHater, wouldn't that make it easy, fudge on your classification, and get voted to win the metallic gold painted bag of sand at closing awards :D ). After all, many veteran shooters with magnum rifles enjoy precision air rifles or the challenge of archery hunting. Many expert fly tiers enjoy a secret small trout stream lined by bushes to trick wild, albeit smallest, native trout. Hard core racers enjoy building their kids pocket bikes.

The open class is a bread and butter class and passes on many innovations to our community. Yet, an entry level class may pay dividends in the coming years by growing the ranks. Remarks have included 1) a stock bike class, 2) 1500W class, 3) 20mph class, 4) 1000W class. What are some persuasive counter arguements against an 'entry level' race class :?:
Last edited by SoSauty on Nov 01 2011 12:24pm, edited 3 times in total.
http://www.ebikes.ca/index.shtml No.#1 Trusted E-bike online sales!
3 hardtail MTBs:
-48V Lith-ion 10.5amp hr-408 C-lyte
-BPM 8FUN[*STOLEN]
-run Century rides w/Q100 mini
3 folders:
-20" wife's BaFang,
-20" TurnigyMax50cc airline suitcase folder,
-24" Stewart/Hass 9C; 3.5K/40mph fun racer

Hillhater   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 10808
Joined: Aug 03 2010 10:33pm
Location: Sydney ..(Hilly part !) .. Australia/ Down under !

Re: Blended e-bike gas bike racing

Post by Hillhater » Oct 31 2011 2:53am

etard wrote:The best ebike turnout was the Death race last year, how many showed up? Say 12 running ebikes on the course, with 3 classes that makes 4 people per class: BORING!! Bracketing vs 1 person: even more BORING!

It would be easy to keep people honest under 1000w, just put Luke on it with a watt meter, do a 100 meter run and if it exceeds 1000watts, you have just earned a go in the unlimited class. :mrgreen:

Where is Safe at, we need his expertise. :lol:
Its up to the race organisers to decide what the "bracket" spread needs to be.
The original issue was how to segregate the slow from the fast, but if you only have 12 bikes, its hardly necessary !
but if you want to "segregate" somehow....bracketing has been proven to work.
however, .."keeping people honest " ... may sound easy, but when it comes to racing.....its been proven NOT to work !
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

User avatar
vanilla ice   100 MW

100 MW
Posts: 2778
Joined: Sep 05 2007 9:15pm
Location: socal dude

Re: Blended e-bike gas bike racing

Post by vanilla ice » Oct 31 2011 10:37am

How much does a bunch of watt meters cost? Seems easy enough if you really wanted to level out the power. They are cheap enough that you could run them on all the bikes during the event, and not just use them for testing afterwards. So you can be sure.

$20 each?

SoSauty   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 339
Joined: Mar 17 2009 11:40pm

E-bikes running with the Gas-bikes

Post by SoSauty » Nov 01 2011 2:24pm

Bracketing, (by lap times as I understand) maybe the most fair. Quip in if you disagree!

At Grange, our top 2 e-s just about double lapped the latter 2 e-bikes.
E-bike lap time speed 5 finishers
1st 1m21s 49mph #109
2nd 1m25s 47mph #116
DNF ?1m21s? 67mph #100
DNF 1m36s 31mph #105
4th 1m38s 30mph #111
5th 1m39s 29mph D.H.
Though the e-s have the most apparent lap time/speed spread, it’s not just e-bikes that had safety, fairness, and max fun concerns; other classes had pretty big spreads.

Another topic switch a-rooni. MBR has tentatively OKed lo-powered electrics to run with the gassers. What do folks think of a small engine/motor or <30mph combined gas/electric class? If motored bikers could run what they ride on the street, I think we can attract 4, 5, or 6+ commuter e-bikers.

Positives: Some can run multiple classes. Enhances fun racing with others similarly matched. Attractive to newbies, and others, therby increasing participation in our sport.
Negatives: Could initially drain away a few bikes from the classes they presently run in.
Last edited by SoSauty on Nov 02 2011 7:03pm, edited 2 times in total.
http://www.ebikes.ca/index.shtml No.#1 Trusted E-bike online sales!
3 hardtail MTBs:
-48V Lith-ion 10.5amp hr-408 C-lyte
-BPM 8FUN[*STOLEN]
-run Century rides w/Q100 mini
3 folders:
-20" wife's BaFang,
-20" TurnigyMax50cc airline suitcase folder,
-24" Stewart/Hass 9C; 3.5K/40mph fun racer

User avatar
MotorBicycleRacing   100 W

100 W
Posts: 150
Joined: Aug 22 2011 1:08am

Re: E-bikes running with the Gas-bikes

Post by MotorBicycleRacing » Nov 01 2011 5:34pm

SoSauty wrote:Bracketing, (by lap times as I understand) maybe the most fair. Quip in if you disagree!

Another topic switch a-rooni. MBR has tentatively OKed lo-powered electrics to run with the gassers. What do folks think of a small engine/motor or <30mph combined gas/electric class? If motored bikers could run what they ride on the street, I think we can attract 4, 5, or 6+ commuter e-bikers.

Positives: Some can run multiple classes. Enhances fun racing with others similarly matched. Attractive to newbies, and others, therby increasing participation in our sport.
Negatives: Could initially drain away a few bikes from the classes they presently run in.
Nothing tentative about it......It's a firm deal so the 50 cc 4 stroke class is expanded to include small commuter ebikes, weedwacker 2 stroke set ups and other small slower motorized bicycles.

User avatar
AussieJester   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 8736
Joined: Mar 11 2008 3:33am
Location: Perth Western Australia

Re: E-bikes running with the Gas-bikes

Post by AussieJester » Nov 01 2011 6:46pm

Could make it a 'street legal' class MBR? the stock 50cc china gurls are
1hp which is round abouts 750watts which is the legal thing
in most states and federal law for mass produced e-bikes... jm2cw

KiM

User avatar
MotorBicycleRacing   100 W

100 W
Posts: 150
Joined: Aug 22 2011 1:08am

Re: E-bikes running with the Gas-bikes

Post by MotorBicycleRacing » Nov 01 2011 11:05pm

AussieJester wrote:Could make it a 'street legal' class MBR? the stock 50cc china gurls are 1hp which is round abouts 750watts which is the legal thing
in most states and federal law for mass produced e-bikes... jm2cw

KiM
The only 50 cc china bike at the race was Bigboys "Double Trouble" that has two 50 cc
motors mounted side by side driving a jackshaft.
Stock 50 cc china engines make about 1.8? hp but very few people In CA use them.

All the rest were 66 cc aka "80's" which make about 2.5? hp or less stock.
2 hp and 30 mph is the CA gas bike legal limit but nobody cares about bigger motors
or hp in real life on the street.

CA ebike legal limit is 1000 watts and 20 mph

50cc 4 stroke GXH Honda or its Huasheng clone make about 2 hp

Bigboy's "Double Trouble" which was not raced at Grange.

Image

User avatar
Whiplash   100 MW

100 MW
Posts: 2897
Joined: May 10 2010 2:55pm

Re: E-bikes running with the Gas-bikes

Post by Whiplash » Nov 01 2011 11:31pm

Personally I like the limited battery as an equalizer. Yes it will eventually get expensive, but hey, you could always do some research and build your own motor right? As for it getting expensive, cry me a river, racing costs money, if you don't have any, don't race. PERIOD. I don't right now, so I don't race... Does not mean I never will though! I got a little frame sitting, waiting, for the right time...!
Power is a fascinating thing, the more you have, the more you want, but the real power is having the restraint not to use it all at once...............Um...Yeah..

The harder you work.....The luckier you get!!

"People who say it can't be done are often interrupted by those that have already figured out how to do it!"

Email me @ currentcycles@gmail.com
OR check out http://www.CurrentCycles.net

User avatar
Jay64   1 MW

1 MW
Posts: 1640
Joined: Nov 16 2007 9:03pm
Location: St. Petersburg, Florida
Contact:

Re: Blended e-bike gas bike racing

Post by Jay64 » Nov 02 2011 2:31am

Hillhater wrote:
SoSauty wrote:..Super simple 20mph, 30mph, and 40mph class
..Too simple ! .. if your intention is to have competitive races.
straight line speed is only one factor to a lap time or a real comparison.
Cornering, handling, acceleration, rider ability, etc all play a big part.
I hate to keep harping on about it, but many other club race series have tackled this issue before and Bracket racing is the solution most arrive at.
you guys need to check and understand how bracketing works.
As a racer I despise bracket racing. You say that cornering , riding ability, etc all play a big part. That is true, but as a racer you shouldn't be penalized for it. I believe that most racing That is being talked about here is Roadracing, I don't know of any club roadrace series that uses bracket racing as their group breakdown. I've only seen it used in drag racing, and when u loose a race for going too fast, that ain't racing. Ha ha. I'm not saying that bracket wont work, but u are penalizing a person w riding skill w that system.
Johnson64.Com "The stone age didn't end because we ran out of stones."
EV Bikes:
'13 Zero S 11.4kwh.
GS500, ME0913, Sevcon Size 6 Controller, 90v40ah Lipo, GSXR suspension..
'87 Hurricane 600, ME0709, 48v/50a SLA, Kelly KD72400, Magura Throttle, High Current Cycle Analyst.
http://www.evalbum.com/2275
Raleigh beach cruiser: 9C rear hub, stock controller, 48v10ah lithium, Cycle Analyst.
Phat Chopper: 9C front hub, stock controller, 48v12ah a123s, Cycle Analyst.

User avatar
Jay64   1 MW

1 MW
Posts: 1640
Joined: Nov 16 2007 9:03pm
Location: St. Petersburg, Florida
Contact:

Re: E-bikes running with the Gas-bikes

Post by Jay64 » Nov 02 2011 2:38am

But, like mentioned before, we don't have That many people showing up for these events yet. So right now, it should pretty much be everyone in one class just having fun. If you start breaking it up into sub classes there will be a class w only 1 or two people in it and they will end up being ran w another group anyways. But I have heard a few people mention that they are worried that they will be in the way of the Faster bikes so they just decided not to come out to the event. So maybe there should be a legal limit class so that those people would be encouraged to still come out and have fun, but also let them ride in the other class if they choose to.
Johnson64.Com "The stone age didn't end because we ran out of stones."
EV Bikes:
'13 Zero S 11.4kwh.
GS500, ME0913, Sevcon Size 6 Controller, 90v40ah Lipo, GSXR suspension..
'87 Hurricane 600, ME0709, 48v/50a SLA, Kelly KD72400, Magura Throttle, High Current Cycle Analyst.
http://www.evalbum.com/2275
Raleigh beach cruiser: 9C rear hub, stock controller, 48v10ah lithium, Cycle Analyst.
Phat Chopper: 9C front hub, stock controller, 48v12ah a123s, Cycle Analyst.

SoSauty   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 339
Joined: Mar 17 2009 11:40pm

Re: E-bikes running with the Gas-bikes

Post by SoSauty » Nov 02 2011 3:10pm

Agree with you J64. Not to minimize HillHater's expertise here, but our sport is in its' infancy, decisions made now will really give direction to how it grows. Bracketing by lap times, would in some instances, penalize a guy for being a heck of a rider. Having a choice, I'd rather the limit be placed on the faster bike build. That person could always race in the hi-speed 40+ class.

Let's say our primary goal is to separate the pretty slow from the very fast (safety) Enhancing the racers experience would be an extra benefit. Our present class system does that somewhat except for e-bikes. Funny to nail a guy for speeding in a race, but the 20/30/40+ does seem doable and I suspect could be an improvement over our present class system. If a 20mph class guy clocks 30 and that gets verified, then he gets ranked with the 30mph class. The speed bracketing could make for fun wisecracks about sandbaggers around the track on raceday :P

Also, with 3 classes, winning would be held in higher esteem due to 1) beating a larger crowd of competitors, and 2) winning due more to cornerning/braking/passing skill than by having the biggest/fastest motor. Some classes, noteably the 30mph class, would probably have to cull a few racers after the heats. Safer and tons of fun :!:

This stuff is sorta subjective and I'm just one mouth. And trust me, MBR reads this stuff and comes to his own conclusions, doesn't just take my word on much. So jump in and make your point of view known :idea:

Whiplash, our racing is pretty much to where if someone has to do something, it may or may not get done. It's not like anyone's going to volunteer to police anybody to any real extent. If you mean a certain voltage/amp combination, with no enforcement other than competitor oversight, then that's a good idea. I don't see 48Volt pushing anything over 30 or certainly over 33mph. (Possible and may happen since I've opened my mouth about it.) Over 50Volts anything can happen. To speculate, over 50V, limit 25amp. Under 50V no amp limit for a 20mph or street (almost stock) class. Yet this still gets dicey with hubbies vs RC motors.

I suspect there's some interest in e-s running in the small 4stroke class 8)
http://www.ebikes.ca/index.shtml No.#1 Trusted E-bike online sales!
3 hardtail MTBs:
-48V Lith-ion 10.5amp hr-408 C-lyte
-BPM 8FUN[*STOLEN]
-run Century rides w/Q100 mini
3 folders:
-20" wife's BaFang,
-20" TurnigyMax50cc airline suitcase folder,
-24" Stewart/Hass 9C; 3.5K/40mph fun racer

Harold in CR   1 MW

1 MW
Posts: 1651
Joined: Feb 01 2010 7:19pm
Location: Costa Rica

Re: E-bikes running with the Gas-bikes

Post by Harold in CR » Nov 02 2011 3:51pm

Isn't there some sort of Rule of Thumb, for different fuels used in Gassers ??
I'm talking about Alcohol = BTU's=HP.
Pump gas = BTU's =HP
Racing Gas =BTU's = HP
Batteries = Equivalent to BTU's = HP

As most e-motors can be run at higher than rated voltage, would this not allow more racers, according to amount of batteries per race ??

If you want to run commuter class, for example, run 48V 20Ahrs.
Want to step it up a notch, add X amount of cells to reach the next class level. Etc, etc ??

Luke seems to want to run mostly unlimited, so, Batteries are not that easy to add or subtract. Others might be able to ??

Would this have any bearing on classifying bikes? If not, I would like to know why, so I can get more familiar with this E-bike stuff.

No matter what is decided, I just want to say, I REALLY appreciate all the photos and videos. All y'all ROCK, gassers & E-Bikers. 8) 8) 8)
Thanks to Justin, the forum is open source and NON-commercialized.

Evoforce   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 802
Joined: Mar 09 2010 2:45am
Location: Fountain Hills Arizona

Re: E-bikes running with the Gas-bikes

Post by Evoforce » Nov 02 2011 5:29pm

I find myself again saying, not enough riders participating and too many trying to make rules. Show up and have fun and stop all the anal regulating. We all have a gut feeling about what too much is, and let's go with that for now. At the Grange race, I was running the slowest speeds that I had ever run, because of having to run a backup sensorless controller and a stuck drive chain. At the Death Race I had the controller problem handled but not the sticking chain issue, and was running in the top few up until halfway through the final lap when a fuse blew. In the main event, a weak wiring splice melted at my phase wires. You can talk to any racer out there and they can tell you the story of faulty equipment, last minute cobble, broken equipment, trying to push the envelope in equipment and riding ability to failing point, and just plain dumb luck or no luck at all. We need participants at these races instead of armchair rule makers. I knew that I could't run in the top few at Grange with the controller that I had available, but I still had fun and ran respectably. Any one of these racers has the ability to possibly win at these races if everything comes together at this race at this time. The Death Race is a blast because we run head to head every race with the gassers. We are out here for fun. We are not making a living at this and make no prize money. I am sure that some don't show up because think they don't have a chance at winning but could be wrong. But everyone for sure has a chance at having fun. Yet, I am the only e-bike who showed for this last race in Tucson. Sad really. So...no more rule makers please, but a big yes to more people who come out to promote and ride e-bikes, at any and all events, where we are welcome. Stop with all the figuring, and start doing. I have to say (and thank) a few in this thread that are getting off the couch, computers, TV, etc... and are getting out there. I had just as much fun mixing it up with SoSauty(Smoke) and Dan Hanebrink for fourth place at Grange as I did racing Dave(Fr31) at the top in Tucson.
"Energy is all consuming and it is never ending. It just changes form as it morphs through time and space... " Evoforce
                                                                                   Several 5403 motors, Phoenix Racer(5403) crystalyte suspension mtn bike LiFepo4 72/20.  (409) crystalyte 48 volt hardtail.   Phoenix Cruiser(5304)  LiFePo4 48/20.  First electric bike a 2009 XB 502-700 style, 36/20 sla scooter bike.  2) 2011 Nissan Leaf's in the mix.  Tesla Model S.  And solar!

SoSauty   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 339
Joined: Mar 17 2009 11:40pm

Re: E-bikes running with the Gas-bikes

Post by SoSauty » Nov 02 2011 7:22pm

Thanks Ed (Evoforce) for representing us e-bikers at Tucson. By imprinting me a new nickname you know why I regretably couldn't make it. I had to vicarously live the race thru you :wink:

The reason this thread got started was a complaint that I hadn't solicited enough input before Grange and advised MBR to set some e-bike limits. Also, we're kinda referring to Grange and those established rules, not insisting anything radical be changed, just getting ideas openly discussed here on the ES and consider tweaking. One tweak is that you and I and others now have the option of running not just in the e-bike class, but in the small 4-stroke class or both 8) For an extra $10 I can race as much as I can get those lipos (Headways) charged :!:
http://www.ebikes.ca/index.shtml No.#1 Trusted E-bike online sales!
3 hardtail MTBs:
-48V Lith-ion 10.5amp hr-408 C-lyte
-BPM 8FUN[*STOLEN]
-run Century rides w/Q100 mini
3 folders:
-20" wife's BaFang,
-20" TurnigyMax50cc airline suitcase folder,
-24" Stewart/Hass 9C; 3.5K/40mph fun racer

User avatar
liveforphysics   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 14134
Joined: Oct 29 2008 1:48am
Location: Santa Cruz, CA, USA

Re: E-bikes running with the Gas-bikes

Post by liveforphysics » Nov 02 2011 8:34pm

Some motor approximations:

For motors of the same physical dimensions:

If it spins to twice the RPM, it can make roughly twice the power.
If it has twice the copper fill, it can make roughly twice the power.
If it has twice the airflow/heatsink area, it can make roughly twice the power.
If it goes from 80% to 90% efficiency, it can make roughly twice the power.


This means, if you run a motor at 1/3rd the RPM, that is 80% efficient, you need to be 6 times physically larger to equal a motor at 90% efficiency with 3x the RPM. Fortunately, larger motors naturally have more area to transfer heat into the air passing over them, so in practice it might only need to be 4x larger.


Here is an example of how foolish it is to judge an electric motor by it's size, or voltage etc.

These electric motors weigh 1.4lbs, run on 24v, under 1" thick, and 6" in diameter that can do 7hp output continuously.
http://www.launchpnt.com/portfolio/aero ... ropulsion/

Likewise, there are motors running on 200VDC, weigh 190lbs, are the size of a large cooler, and make 4hp
http://www.ebay.com/itm/T-B-Woods-3HP-1 ... 2052wt_994


Why can the giant motor only make 4hp at 200vdc while the motor that is lighter than just the end of the shaft alone of the big motor can make 7hp at 24vdc?

Because only a f*cking tool tries to judge a motors output by size, and then tries to throw voltage into it as well somehow? As if voltage is in anyway related to a motors output potential???


I've got a dyno, and a portable dyno. However, it's 100% useless to try to measure the power output of race bikes at the track. It's effortless to retard timing on the gas bikes to reduce power to any level you desire (from 20hp to 1hp even), and then slide it back advanced to go race. Likewise, have a 3 position control switch hidden on your ebike (and it's impossible to find well hidden switches, they can be magnet switches for wiring mounted in the frame etc), go roll on the dyno and lay 1hp, get off the dyno, take your tiny scrap of magnet away from some point on the bike, and have 20hp.

Bringing the dyno out could be fun for folks interested in seeing how much power they make, but it's useless for trying to patrol a class.

PaulD and I have talked for hours together about how to make fair classes for gas and electric bikes. It always comes back to Tiberius' original suggestion of weight maximums. Why weight? Because you can check it in 10 seconds as a bike is rolling up to go on. It balances modifications amazingly well. If somebody wants to run motorcycle tires for example, well, they were a 7.5lbs addition to my bike over bicycle tires, so I would have to run either less battery, a lighter controller, a lighter motor, etc to still make the weight. As a race gets longer, ebikes fall victim to battery weight in a drastic way, as there energy is single use disposable liquid, and ours is an elaborate reusable container for electrons.

We discussed having ebikes weigh-in with no battery on board, and gas bikes weigh-in with no fuel on board. It does allow for races to stay balanced at any practical distance.

Where it fails badly, is rider weight impact. This is why every karting class always weighs kart/rider together, and lead is bolted to the karts that fall under the minimum. For bicycles, this isn't really a safe practice, and would get pretty extreme with realistic 100lbs differences between riders body weights.

Likewise, heavier riders need heavier brakes, shred tires faster, and require more power to accelerate at a competitive rate. For example, PaulD's bike was amazing with his light body on it, but when I ran some laps on it, it was flexy, badly under powered, and the brake faded unsafely for me while only riding 7/10ths intensity.

This brings us to bike weight as a percentage of riders body weight. Why? Because it's measurable in seconds with a sub 1% margin of error, it lets big guys run safe bikes and little guys run safe bikes, without giving a big advantage to either, and it lets gas bikes run against electric bikes. To prevent anyone from being a huge 400lbs guy on a motorcycle, you have a fixed bike weight cap at something like 100lbs (or whatever line you want to say is when a bicycle stops being a bicycle).

Where does it fail? Non-race bikes, like big heavy cruisers with crap power, both electric and gas, end up not being fairly classed at all. However, there is an easy solution, if you brought a non-race bike and just came to have fun, then have a fun class for those folks to go ride.

Also, to touch on the topic of this thread, I think the concept of running ebikes by themselves, or 2 stroke, or 4 stroke or whatever by themselves is really really dumb. I would never even bother to attend an event that was just e-bicycles, it has no appeal to me at all. 100% of the appeal is in different types of bikes competing against each other. I don't actually think ANYONE likes grouping races by bike type rather than by folks that want to race against each other. It's like going to drag racing events, domestic only races and events suck, nobody cares, import only races and events suck, nobody cares, but DOMESTIC VS IMPORT events draw huge crowds, everybody is emotionally wrapped up in the races for one team or the other, and the races are 10000 times more exciting to watch.

IMHO, to do this right, you have 2 classes, possibly 3 classes (if you want 2 different weight groups). You have the fun-run folks who are just there to enjoy going around a track and didn't bring race bikes, and they don't weigh-in, they just go out as a group and ride. Then you have the class for people who come to race on things made for racing, and they have to weigh-in and meet the rider/bike weight spec. A light weight group for folks with perhaps under 0.4lbs of bike weight per 1lbs of rider, and a middle/heavy bike group for riders with under 0.55lbs of bike per 1lbs of rider (or whatever is determined to work out well).

Power can't be measured while on the track for gas bikes, and it's damn easy to fool with electrics. Weight can be measured with dirt cheap equipment to extremely reliable numbers, everyone can check at home with a bathroom scale to see where they are at so there are no surprises at the track. Set the values so it forces bicycle to be bicycles, and let the weight maximum be the limiter for the engine/motor/CVT/gearing/controller/wheels/tires etc.
Each carcinogen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for cancer.

Each mutagen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for reproductive genetic defects in your children.

Each engine start sprays them into a shared atmosphere which includes beings not offered an opportunity to consent accepting these cancer experiences and defective genetics life experiences.

Every post is a free gift to the collective of minds composing the living bleeding edge of LEV development on our spaceship.

SoSauty   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 339
Joined: Mar 17 2009 11:40pm

Re: E-bikes running with the Gas-bikes

Post by SoSauty » Nov 02 2011 9:28pm

Something like this?
48" X 60" scale up to 500lbs
http://us.mt.com/us/en/home/products/In ... _0409.html

Let's see, do the ladies have to divulge their weight?

Much of the bike weight or bike/rider weight ratio idea is pretty persuasive. The comment
Because only a f*cking fool tries to judge a motors output by size
is not.
I do not consider anyone's ideas on this thread the idea of fools. Contrary, very much enjoy the different perspectives presented.
Quote from page 23 of Electric Motors and Drives:
We can therefore make the bold but generally accurate statement that the overall volume of a motor is determined by the torque it has to produce. There are of course exceptions to this rule, but as a general guideline for motor selection, it is extrememly useful.
I appreciate and enjoy those perspectives presented here. The ES is a great forum for the free exchange of ideas. I anticipate the continued flow of varied perspectives and cool ideas :P
http://www.ebikes.ca/index.shtml No.#1 Trusted E-bike online sales!
3 hardtail MTBs:
-48V Lith-ion 10.5amp hr-408 C-lyte
-BPM 8FUN[*STOLEN]
-run Century rides w/Q100 mini
3 folders:
-20" wife's BaFang,
-20" TurnigyMax50cc airline suitcase folder,
-24" Stewart/Hass 9C; 3.5K/40mph fun racer

acuteaero   100 W

100 W
Posts: 172
Joined: May 08 2011 3:25pm
Location: SF Bay Area, CA
Contact:

Re: E-bikes running with the Gas-bikes

Post by acuteaero » Nov 02 2011 11:32pm

Well said, persuasive argument Mr. Luke. I like what I envision classifications like that would do for the scene. I like the idea that a bike like the Luke's bicycle of doom could be in the lower power/weight class with a heavy rider and in the upper power/weight class with a light rider- when rider weight is such a large percentage of gross it really makes sense to use it in classifying. I also agree that running all different types of racers together is better, makes it 100% more fun. (my biggest worry in thinking about the prospect of organizing a motored-bike race in nor-cal is trouble getting enough gas-bikers involved---)

As for motor output/size- motor size does certainly have bearing on output- particularly in ebikes, where everything everyone is using is generally designed for efficiency and low weight- no one is running any stationary-industrial parts on racing ebikes. A bigger motor on an ebike is likely to make more usable power for racing. Sure, there is a spread of efficiency and other design factors between the various motors, but even then it's really neither here nor there as Luke pointed out- it's only one small factor in the performance or competitiveness of the bike overall.

I think the real airtight statement is "only an f*cking tool tries to judge a bike's competitiveness on motor size" - after all, we all know the results of the most recent race.

Evoforce   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 802
Joined: Mar 09 2010 2:45am
Location: Fountain Hills Arizona

Re: E-bikes running with the Gas-bikes

Post by Evoforce » Nov 03 2011 1:23am

Luke unquestionably had the fastest bike in the straights if you look at the video. But because of overall weight, suspension sag and maybe less experience was slower through the turns than the lighter bikes and riders. Us heavier riders and bikes can only keep up by having more zip on what little straight-away there is. I just am not as dedicated to loosing this extra 30-35 pounds of body weight, as I am to getting an e-bike to the race. But I could never weigh as light as Aiden or Paul and thus will have to build a heavier bike to compete.
"Energy is all consuming and it is never ending. It just changes form as it morphs through time and space... " Evoforce
                                                                                   Several 5403 motors, Phoenix Racer(5403) crystalyte suspension mtn bike LiFepo4 72/20.  (409) crystalyte 48 volt hardtail.   Phoenix Cruiser(5304)  LiFePo4 48/20.  First electric bike a 2009 XB 502-700 style, 36/20 sla scooter bike.  2) 2011 Nissan Leaf's in the mix.  Tesla Model S.  And solar!

User avatar
Jay64   1 MW

1 MW
Posts: 1640
Joined: Nov 16 2007 9:03pm
Location: St. Petersburg, Florida
Contact:

Re: E-bikes running with the Gas-bikes

Post by Jay64 » Nov 03 2011 12:52pm

Evoforce wrote:Yet, I am the only e-bike who showed for this last race in Tucson. Sad really. So...no more rule makers please, but a big yes to more people who come out to promote and ride e-bikes, at any and all events, where we are welcome. Stop with all the figuring, and start doing.
Evo, honestly it kinda feels like u are slamming us for not making it to the event. I think one of the biggest problems with more of us not showing up for the event was that the event date was posted on ES only about 3 weeks before the event and we already had plans. I do agree to some extent That at this point we need to just go out and have fun riding together, but in the mean time between events, it doesn't hurt to work out some details for when the events do get bigger and some type of control is needed.

User avatar
etard   1 MW

1 MW
Posts: 1935
Joined: Aug 03 2008 3:28pm
Location: Redlands, CA

Re: E-bikes running with the Gas-bikes

Post by etard » Nov 03 2011 2:17pm

Jay,
I think Evo was slamming the people that talk but will never show up to an event. It's like me, an American, telling a dictator in South America how to run thier country ( oh, wait we do that :wink: ). I agree with you though, it would be nice to work out some details we all can agree on between the e-vents.

It sounds dumb, but I'm super excited about the ultralight class. I'm kinda burnt out on the big power struggle using these small motors. I'm aiming for ultra efficiency in the 1000 watt category. I'm planning a friction drive streamliner, possibly a lowracer, Atomic Zombie shows how to build one in his book I have and if I can get a streamliner fairing, I feel 40 mph could be a reality down the straight.
Four wheels moves the body, Two wheels moves the soul
Thanks to Justin @ http://www.ebike.ca He brings the soul to ES

Evoforce   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 802
Joined: Mar 09 2010 2:45am
Location: Fountain Hills Arizona

Re: E-bikes running with the Gas-bikes

Post by Evoforce » Nov 03 2011 3:33pm

Etard is right. It is about armchair quarterbacks. I understand some of us may be able to make it to some events and not others. I personally would like to make it to play in San Fran but have been unable to so far...My beef is this October that the events were too close together and I believe it was a major factor in the turnout at the Death Race and at Grange. Please don't take it as my slamming anyone that is participating(especially all the way from Florida). A lot of what happened in the scheduling could be worked out between organizers. The Death Race in Tucson has been running for many years in April and October. To have the races In Cali and Arizona a week apart, was a great stress on racers, for all of the obvious reasons. My main goal is to have as many enthusiasts show up as possible with as few restrictions as possible. With 8 of us actually racing at Grange and 1 of us racing at Tucson, we are still way behind the curve for a bunch of rulemaking(especially from those who haven't been to our races). I know everyone has a right to an opinion, but I think experience at these events helps to provide a reasonable and sound one.
"Energy is all consuming and it is never ending. It just changes form as it morphs through time and space... " Evoforce
                                                                                   Several 5403 motors, Phoenix Racer(5403) crystalyte suspension mtn bike LiFepo4 72/20.  (409) crystalyte 48 volt hardtail.   Phoenix Cruiser(5304)  LiFePo4 48/20.  First electric bike a 2009 XB 502-700 style, 36/20 sla scooter bike.  2) 2011 Nissan Leaf's in the mix.  Tesla Model S.  And solar!

User avatar
liveforphysics   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 14134
Joined: Oct 29 2008 1:48am
Location: Santa Cruz, CA, USA

Re: E-bikes running with the Gas-bikes

Post by liveforphysics » Nov 03 2011 3:57pm

In 2 wheel roadracing, being low is a disaster, and having a higher top speed down the back half of the straight has a tiny, roughly useless difference in laptime.

If you want to be fast, you want weight forward and high. You want acceleration to peak at roughly 20-30mph for kart tracks.
Each carcinogen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for cancer.

Each mutagen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for reproductive genetic defects in your children.

Each engine start sprays them into a shared atmosphere which includes beings not offered an opportunity to consent accepting these cancer experiences and defective genetics life experiences.

Every post is a free gift to the collective of minds composing the living bleeding edge of LEV development on our spaceship.

Post Reply