Putting out a feeler ... What is a good mid-range FS frame?

LI-ghtcycle

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Heya all, I am finally coming to the dark side! :twisted:

I still love my rigid frames, but I recognize the benefits of full suspension, and I am in the process of building a prototype FS bike to use this concept:

15362948_large.jpg


This is a very crappy and crude "drawing" but you get the picture I hope. :wink: (the blue box represents a battery pack, the large black circle the larger gear for the motor chain, the red lines, the motor chain and the rest of the pedal drive train remains the same, just a longer chain to match the swing arm, and a roller to pick up the slack somewhere in the middle of the extra long chain) I'm only able to do marginal stuff on MS paint doh!

The idea is a FS MTB with a custom built rear swing arm that will be approximately 6 - 8 inches longer than the original and keep the same ride height, add a rear shock that will be compatible with the now longer and heavier swing arm, made of cro-mo steel that would still allow you to convert your bike back to pedal only by installing the original swing arm.

In the picture there is a brushless motor mounted in between the top and bottom chain stays that will power a NuVinci CVPT with a dual right hand drive (pedal chain and motor chain side by side) both able to benefit from the "gearing" of the Constant Variable Planetary Transmission hub and give you the ability to very efficiently climb steep hills with about the same effort as cruising on the flat, while still being able to shift and go fast at the top.

My question is, what would most of you view as a good bang for the buck decent mid-range priced full suspension MTB that wouldn't embarrass you if anyone knew what it was or where you bought it, not a $6,000 super MTB, but not a Walmart special either. :p

This would be more of a XC type bike, not a full out free ride or downhill bike, I'm wanting something the average person can afford to ride to commute and hit some trails on the weekend. 8)

Something that might retail in the neighborhood of say $700 - $1000 (or maybe you might find it on sale around $500) and would have decent disc brakes and components stock.

The frame can be aluminum since the added swing arm is going to be relatively short and rigid, I would imagine any flexing would be minimal.

This bike would be using the same Golden Motor BLDC brushless motor I am currently using on my bike.

Comments highly appreciated. :)
 
Hey LI, my brother that lives up in Canby has an old Burley recumbent with rear suspension. It's set up as a SWB similar to your Vision.

It's had a lot of use with him at about 250#'s and he was planning to retire it when he had his stroke 3 years ago. But it was still in running condition, and on our last ride together three plus years ago we crossed the Willamette on the Canby ferry and he rode it up the steep road on the West bank.

I'll ask him if he wants to get it out of the garage and for how much if you are interested.
 
Rassy said:
Hey LI, my brother that lives up in Canby has an old Burley recumbent with rear suspension. It's set up as a SWB similar to your Vision.

It's had a lot of use with him at about 250#'s and he was planning to retire it when he had his stroke 3 years ago. But it was still in running condition, and on our last ride together three plus years ago we crossed the Willamette on the Canby ferry and he rode it up the steep road on the West bank.

I'll ask him if he wants to get it out of the garage and for how much if you are interested.

Tempting! :D

Thanks very much for the offer, but this is more of a prototype for a build to order bike we should be selling soon from Classic Cycles, it's not exactly for me as much as it is something that the average E-MTB rider is interested in.

I had a huge post at first and paired it down because I was afraid I was adding too much detail, but I am trying to get an idea of the average E-Bike rider's preference in a mid-grade FS MTB, and what they would consider "must haves" for a good frame.

I'm wanting to avoid the "pogo stick" suspension of the low end stuff, and try not to break into too high of price point stuff, but for my first prototype I will most likely cut up an existing Wal-Bike frame and see how I like the position of motor, batteries and feel of the suspension, but my goal is to find something affordable for the average person who is willing to pay for quality, but not quite ready for the really high-end stuff that sells for $5,000. :)

This might lead to a "made to order" kit that will offer a custom swing arm to a particular bike frame that would convert it and otherwise leave everything else about the bike the same.

No need to have a MTB with a large front triangle area, and give a longer wheel base to give greater stability at the higher speed. 8)
 
mrzed said:
What's with the battery on the swingarm? Good suspension eliminates unnecessary unsprung mass.


Hmmm good point, the battery could definitely be moved, the idea was to be able to use frames regardless of limited space in the triangle.
 
I have given this idea a lot of thought over the past few years and have come to the conclusion that is a tough sell. Much like a dual sport motorcycle, an e-mtb is a compromise either way you cut it. It is too heavy to pedal, doesn't have enough power to make it really fun in the dirt, and is not as sturdy as either a true mtb or a dirt bike. Now I like your idea of being able to switch back and forth from standard to electric, but if I were to spend a couple grand on a bike, would I really want to take it back to stock and ride a "crappy" ( in my estimation) mtb around? As for me, I would want a heavy duty DH style mtb with about 3 KW of power on tap driven through the gears ( like you have) with everything protected and in the front triangle with a range of at least 12 miles no pedaling. I would be happy to have a top speed of 25 mph, as long as it climbed like a goat. I would also want the thing to take 5 foot drops no problem. So many builds using the Kona Stinky here on ES, I would think it is the natural selection for this. However, you have to get an older design to fit anything in the triangle.

images

PICT0108.jpg


I much the same fashion, there's also the GT LTS:

dscf3251fi1lr5.png


I wish you success, I'm not trying to discourage as I would love to see you succeed at this, I'm just saying it is a tough sell to hardcore mt bikers, especially if it feels fragile.
 
Thanks etard. :)

I'm thinking something that will appeal to the average E-Biker that wants something with suspension, but not a true DH or FreeRide bike, something that the average E-Biker would use on the road, and be more street than dirt.

I know what you mean about the hard sell, I used to ride a '79 Yamaha XT500 and at the time I had more the dream that I would ride in the dirt on the week-end and commute otherwise, the reality wasn't so pretty.

My first trip in the dirt lasted less than 20 minutes in mud with DOT approved knobby tires and a twisted ankle at a nationally sanctioned event that a friend told me was "just a bunch of guys out riding .. sign up for expert, you'll get more laps!" :roll: :lol:

I would not want to build anything that is trying to be two things at once, more like a "dirtable" street bike than a "streetable" dirt bike, the suspension is more for the big pot hole you hit when least expecting it and don't want to end up loosing teeth in the process. :wink:

Maybe I am needing to ask what types of MTB's do the average people here ride on the street that provides a good plush ride, and handles the extra weight of motor & batter well?

Thank you for posting the Stinky, not sure why that didn't occur to me, is that something you would say is a mid-range bike? Would it fit in the $700 - $1000 retail price range?

Here is another pic I put together (no idea of the qualities of this frame, just pulled it from the "suitable full suspension bikes" thread and made changes to address my gross mistake in the original concept! :oops: :eek:

15363226_large.jpg


I will make a similar pic with the Stinky as the frame, however, it's a good point about the weight being off the suspension!! Can't believe that didn't occur to me! :lol:
 
Well, I think I might have found a frame in the price range that I am thinking, maybe you all can critique this particular frame? (just a reminder, this will be a bike that will see the street 90% of the time, not a true MTB by any means, more of a bike that will take the bite out of the bumps on the road)

15363228_large.jpg


Oh, and I forgot to mention, I'm thinking along the same lines as you etard, 25 MPH tops, but climbing like a goat! :mrgreen:

It's all in the gearing really, and having the NuVinci makes all the difference IMO to get that kind of performance.

What would you think of something you could add to your favorite frame to just extend the rear triangle and then all the weight is still centered on the frame?

If done right, this could add only 50lbs or less to the bike.

Sure that is ton of weight in the bike world, but for an E-Bike, if you're starting with a 30lb bike, not too bad considering the performance, and with the change of a gear at the motor you could switch between a super climber and a top end closer to 30 - 35 while still staying under the 1000W legal limit, using either the Amped Bikes battery at 36V, or you add your own battery for those willing to build up a pack of A123, LiPo or what have you.
 
Here is my favorite Stink-E ( what a great name!) by Garrick_s, even though it's a hub motor bike, you can see how great it looks when done right.

file.php


http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=23091&hilit=stink+e

Of course there is always Deecanio's A123 bike, and ES classic IMO:

file.php


It's a mega thread, this kinda ended it though :evil: :
[youtube]6H7HkjcEvBs[/youtube]


Have you seen Farfle's bike? It uses a hub motor, but could be used for a non hub, just the same. He custom built the swingarm and it looks real pro close up. The bike is a walmart bike, but I rode it and it handled great, even the forks!

Bend-20111020-00127.jpg


http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=31395&p=482898&hilit=farfle#p482898

Hope that helps!
 
etard said:
Here is my favorite Stink-E ( what a great name!) by Garrick_s, even though it's a hub motor bike, you can see how great it looks when done right.

file.php


http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=23091&hilit=stink+e

Of course there is always Deecanio's A123 bike, and ES classic IMO:

file.php


It's a mega thread, this kinda ended it though :evil: :
[youtube]6H7HkjcEvBs[/youtube]


Have you seen Farfle's bike? It uses a hub motor, but could be used for a non hub, just the same. He custom built the swingarm and it looks real pro close up. The bike is a walmart bike, but I rode it and it handled great, even the forks!

Bend-20111020-00127.jpg


http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=31395&p=482898&hilit=farfle#p482898

Hope that helps!

Thanks again, another group of fine examples! :D

I really like the looks of that bike of farfle's, but I'm kinda torn on the 20 inch wheel since I might not be able to get the performance I'm looking to get with that small of wheel, might be a great idea for a ultimate hill climber, but then you have pedal clearance issues, hmmm.

I wonder if 24 inch wheels would be a good compromise, biggest problem I imagine is how to get MC or scooter tires for them. :?:

That really makes me think, he's using a Walmart Frame and getting such good performance!

Maybe I need to reconsider the use of a modified Wal-Bike frame at least. :p
 
With 1000$, one can find one of the very best DH racing bikes on the used market. Many of the components will be worn out, but building an ebike requires changing many of them anyway. Starting with a bike that has exceptional handling and stiffness makes for only few minor mods to succeed, while a cheap bike makes for alot of try and error and major mods, and often end up with poor handling anyway.

A Kona Stinky has the minimum requirements, it is a mid-range FS frame IMO and anything less is not interesting unless you are willing and equipped to do major mods. Many better frames are easy to find, some call for imagination to build clean and balanced, but are sure value in terms of effective performance.
 
If you're gonna extend the swingarm to make space for the motor, maybe you could instead move the swingarm pivot point back while extending it, so you have a part of the extended frame that's still sprung to mount the battery on.
 
Not enough performance out of the 20" wheel? You talking about performance in potholes maybe? That bike hauled butt!

In any case, you can build a similar arm, but for 26" for sure.

I think you are heading in a good direction though. There are so many frames out there, the right one is going to be the one with the right price, on the used market. Look for something not ridden too terribly hard, but ridden enough to go for half it's msrp of at least $1500. Kona stinky, etc. Once you get the shocks tuned correctly, none of the 4 bar suspension, or it's variants should pedal bob much. Most people set the shock too soft for curb hopping. Then bob like mad pedaling. The worst pedal bob is going to be the old school suspension where swingarms connect directly to the frame, and that is generaly seen only on y frames anyway.
 
amberwolf said:
If you're gonna extend the swingarm to make space for the motor, maybe you could instead move the swingarm pivot point back while extending it, so you have a part of the extended frame that's still sprung to mount the battery on.

I'm not quite following you AW, I'm of the mind that keeping any and all weight off the swing arm is the goal so that it is able to react quickest?

I'd think if the pivot is moved or extended on the frame side, might as well be building the frame too. :wink:

The hope is to find something that is already well equipped, and well suited for the street first to soak up those pot holes, and have good enough quality design and components to keep pedal bob to a minimum.

Al at Classic cycles has a guy who does nothing but suspension and has something like 20 years experience, deals in high volume so we can get a really good price, and I am sure it's going to take some trial and error, but I'm relying on his expertise to help us once we decide on a frame to use. :)
 
I'm a fan of the Stinky, as well as the other lighter weight Kona from the early 2000's as well. Good stif frames, overbuilt heavy duty suspension and lots of room in the frame despite having the shock in there as well.

Something to keep in mind on these multi-link suspension bikes. If you extend the swing arm and change the linkage angles, you've ruined the geometry, and it won't preform the same. Some very well paid engineers spent huge sums of money deciding that those were the correct angles and placement for the suspension. If you want to extend the swing arm, It would be best to do it in a way that keeps the original geometry, like by adding length after the original dropout locations.
 
dogman said:
Not enough performance out of the 20" wheel? You talking about performance in potholes maybe? That bike hauled butt!

In any case, you can build a similar arm, but for 26" for sure.

I think you are heading in a good direction though. There are so many frames out there, the right one is going to be the one with the right price, on the used market. Look for something not ridden too terribly hard, but ridden enough to go for half it's msrp of at least $1500. Kona stinky, etc. Once you get the shocks tuned correctly, none of the 4 bar suspension, or it's variants should pedal bob much. Most people set the shock too soft for curb hopping. Then bob like mad pedaling. The worst pedal bob is going to be the old school suspension where swingarms connect directly to the frame, and that is generaly seen only on y frames anyway.

Actually, I believe the 20 inch wheels are the most natural choice high performance wheels for speed/hill climbing around! For me, it's a KISS issue, if I use 20 inch wheels, and the voltage/wattage I plan to, it would put the gearing ratio in too far one direction.

I'm avoiding having to use a jack shaft if possible, and so far my preliminary gear calculations are showing that it will be very hard to build my ultimate race/exhibition bike using 20 inch wheels and keep with in that requirement.

As far as this particular bike goes, I want it to be more of a commuter that can see some dirt on the weekends, not be such a chore to pedal that if you had to, pedaling home wouldn't be near impossible as a back-up.

I'm not looking to make this a "race powered" bike, but more like a very capable street legal E-Bike with-in the 1000W limit and offer considerably higher performance than what is average on the market in pre-made bikes/kits you see now.
 
LI-ghtcycle said:
Actually, I believe the 20 inch wheels are the most natural choice high performance wheels for speed/hill climbing around!
If using a "fixed-gear-ratio" (DD or geared) hubmotor in the wheel, then that's probably true. But if driving the wheel from an external motor, for whcih you can select the gearing ratio at time of installation (or even add selectable ratios), it shouldn't matter.

Though as you say, with some voltages vs motor k/V vs possible gearing (due to frame, gear size, etc) limitations, the wheel itself might need to be made smaller or larger to compensate.
 
etard said:
I have given this idea a lot of thought over the past few years and have come to the conclusion that is a tough sell. Much like a dual sport motorcycle, an e-mtb is a compromise either way you cut it.

To add a counter argument to this, the GS (Large dual-sport) has been BMW's best selling motorcycle for nearly two decades.

I think there's a lot of merit to this idea.

Tony
 
bi256p00.jpg


Unfortunately, it's $2400, but what a MONSTER!
 
TonyReynolds said:
etard said:
To add a counter argument to this, the GS (Large dual-sport) has been BMW's best selling motorcycle for nearly two decades.
Not to mention.. In tough times less people can afford both an off road motorcycle and a street one. Dual sport sales are up this past year. Duals and scooters are the only two segments increasing sales right now. If you look at all the segments combined new unit sales is declining overall.
 
Either that, or off road capable suspension is more desirable than ever, for street riding. :lol:

Actually, the dual sport models likely have improved some more, making them a better choice than ever. Used to be the 400 yamaha thumper was it, followed soon by the hondas. Now there are some really nice dual sport bikes that carry fairings and panniers as good as a street bike, yet can do some amazing stuff off road too. Not mx type stuff, but touring on some crazy roads. Ever seen the tv show about Ewan McGregor's ride aroung the world? Long way Round. A good ad for the bmw he used!

The Dakar rally coverage is another good place to see these bikes perform amazing stuff.
 
dogman said:
Either that, or off road capable suspension is more desirable than ever, for street riding. :lol:

Actually, the dual sport models likely have improved some more, making them a better choice than ever. Used to be the 400 yamaha thumper was it, followed soon by the hondas. Now there are some really nice dual sport bikes that carry fairings and panniers as good as a street bike, yet can do some amazing stuff off road too. Not mx type stuff, but touring on some crazy roads. Ever seen the tv show about Ewan McGregor's ride aroung the world? Long way Round. A good ad for the bmw he used!

The Dakar rally coverage is another good place to see these bikes perform amazing stuff.

This is what I am looking to capture. :D

I'm looking to see what generally makes a good pot hole jumper but doesn't break the bank, maybe I am wrong to assume that the wal-bikes don't qualify?

I am sure there ones that are better than others, but if there is basic geometry that lends it's self to good street handling with a similar design as the one NeilP posted on the other thread:

(not saying this is a wal-frame, no idea, but it looks to be at least a middle of the roader?)

2004111300463878218.jpg


And here is my proposed modified version again:

15363226_large.jpg


I'm really liking this design both in practical and pleasing to the eye respects.

The next question is how do I get one, or maybe I just need a multi-link suspension bike to build a custom swing-arm onto. 8)
 
dogman said:
Either that, or off road capable suspension is more desirable than ever, for street riding. :lol: .
Given the lack of maintenance on roads these days, and the propensity to do a full resurfacing and THEN immediately dig up parts of the road for under-road work :roll: , I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case. Certainly would be useful.
 
They do that to secure next years budget.

IMO some of the ~$300ish Schwinns are good mid range frames. Upgrade components as they wear/break. Some people consider $1000+ bikes mid range though, so its all relative.
 
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