another 80-100 rear drive build thread (now with Tongxin)

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Nehmo   10 kW

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Re: another 80-100 rear drive build thread (now with pics)

Post by Nehmo » Feb 01 2012 11:03am

Impressive. I'm following everything you do.

So, I've got a question for now. The freewheels, you used a Dicta freewheel already attached to the chainwheel (front sprocket). How do they attach to each other?
Your recommendation is UK£ 39.95 = $63.32 U.S. dollars before shipping form the UK. Naturally, since you're in Germany, your suppliers are in Europe. I'm in the US, and it usually isn't worth buying from European suppliers for me because of the shipping cost.

I'm wondering if buying the chainwheel & freewheel combined is the way to go. The alternative is getting them separately and attaching them to each other via a crank spider or something.
`~- Nehmo

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Re: another 80-100 rear drive build thread (now with pics)

Post by LegendLength » Feb 01 2012 12:04pm

I did a quick search on the nuvinci max power and found http://www.motoredbikes.com/showthread.php?t=8227 :
[...] if you expect them to last,and it would seem prudent to limit the torque input to below 70,corresponding to about 1.7 HP.(at 130 input rpm)
So about 1.0 - 1.5 kW max power. But it must be talking about the n171 because that thread was from 2008.

I'd probably agree with you here and lean more towards the manufacturer's spec for max power (for the 360). There doesn't seem to be much real world testing out there unfortunately, even on the older 171 models.

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Re: another 80-100 rear drive build thread (now with pics)

Post by crossbreak » Feb 01 2012 4:09pm

The most special thing with the freewheel crank is the SPIDER!!

It's just a special crank arm with BSA-threads on it.

Don't know if I would spend the $65 for this agian. Because most times I pedal anyway :shock:

If fallbrook says, the NUVinci can last 5KW, than it will I guess, just look at that link again I posted

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Re: another 80-100 rear drive build thread (now with pics)

Post by crossbreak » Feb 01 2012 6:27pm

Has anyone ever seen a gearless friction drive planetary except the NuVinci? Opened up a so called "geared" sensorless hubmotor a Q126-SWX, reated at 36V, 210 rpm and 6.1amps
The ratio is about 1:10 I guess
I'd like to see how this performs at 72V
I ask myself if a KU123 100V caps can handle 72V??

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Spicerack   10 kW

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Re: another 80-100 rear drive build thread (now with pics)

Post by Spicerack » Feb 01 2012 8:21pm

I think this gearless hub motor will slip and not do very much at high power. They also have been known to crack the outer ring. If you want power, it has to be gears, not friction type.
Norco Shore2
Was Cellman MAC rear oil cooled then 8x8 9C vented and temp probed now 9x7 9C vented and temp probed!
12 FET controller
62V 18650 home made battery pack
50 km/h
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=32769
MAC Repair thread http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =2&t=34806
Oil cooling the MAC hubbie http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =2&t=37972

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Re: another 80-100 rear drive build thread (now with pics)

Post by docnjoj » Feb 02 2012 10:12am

crossbreak wrote:Has anyone ever seen a gearless friction drive planetary except the NuVinci? Opened up a so called "geared" sensorless hubmotor a Q126-SWX, reated at 36V, 210 rpm and 6.1amps
The ratio is about 1:10 I guess
I'd like to see how this performs at 72V
I ask myself if a KU123 100V caps can handle 72V??

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Hey Crossbreak!
Where can I get a motor like that? I don't think if it is like the Tongxin it will take 72 volts but they are quiet!
otherDoc
E-bike stable at our house

Steintrike Mad Max full suspension trike rear Cute 100H going on: Whoops, Cute wheel broke but I fixed it.
Sun USX delta trike EbikeKit small geared front wheel sort of front suspension for wife

Agniusm/A123 AMP 20 36 volts on the Steini has been taken off.
2x16000 Multisport from HK now gone as they died after 2 years
New Luna 10S bottle battery 13.6AH now on mine
Relatively New 10S4Px2 for wife's bike giving 20ah @ 40 volts home made Panasonic from Tumich. BMS's rule.

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Re: another 80-100 rear drive build thread (now with pics)

Post by crossbreak » Feb 02 2012 12:50pm

I think this gearless hub motor will slip and not do very much at high power. They also have been known to crack the outer ring. If you want power, it has to be gears, not friction type.
Thanks for your post! Sorry, my post is OT because this motor is not meant to be build on the black bike this thread is about.

High power at low weight means high rpm, which means a lot of noise with gears. My 80100 concept is really noisy. Couldn't get it much more quiet by encapsulating it.

The gearless drive will slip if the max torque is reached. Just like the NuVinci. I tested it with 20amps at 36V, that was ok. So it should even last 20amps at 100V because the torque will stay the same. I guess the best efficency region of this inrunner motor is at 5amp at 2000rpm and about 42Volts input (just my 2 cents). It's a 15N4P inrunner with a about 50KV.

I wanna go for 55V with 15s lipo or 72V with 20s, but I want to stay below 15amps. I want to use a KU63. I guess 55V are all it can take. The FETS are HY-1707 rated for 70V. I will change the caps.

Its for my 1KWH long range stealth bike with middle motor. The motor mount will be in the lower frame triangle. I will post picture in new thread soon. It has a thirty year old 3-speed Sachs Torpedo Hub which has really little friction and is very durable to beat hills.
Last edited by crossbreak on Feb 02 2012 12:56pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: another 80-100 rear drive build thread (now with pics)

Post by crossbreak » Feb 02 2012 12:51pm

Sadly I can't tell you where to get such a motor. The guy I bought it from is a polish guy who disappeared

[Edit: they are still available if you find a reseller]
Last edited by crossbreak on Feb 29 2012 8:13pm, edited 2 times in total.

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docnjoj   100 GW

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Re: another 80-100 rear drive build thread (now with pics)

Post by docnjoj » Feb 02 2012 2:23pm

crossbreak wrote:Sadly I can't tell you where to get such a motor. The guy I bought it from is a polish guy who disappeared
Well Crossbreak, thanks anyway. There is a thread on a Tongxin motor as a mid-drive on someone's trike that looked quite professional. He used it attached to the front boom of the tadpole and ran it off a left side freewheel on the threaded portion of the case. It seems to be ideal since you have a split axle on those motors and there is really no weight as a midrive on it.
otherDoc
E-bike stable at our house

Steintrike Mad Max full suspension trike rear Cute 100H going on: Whoops, Cute wheel broke but I fixed it.
Sun USX delta trike EbikeKit small geared front wheel sort of front suspension for wife

Agniusm/A123 AMP 20 36 volts on the Steini has been taken off.
2x16000 Multisport from HK now gone as they died after 2 years
New Luna 10S bottle battery 13.6AH now on mine
Relatively New 10S4Px2 for wife's bike giving 20ah @ 40 volts home made Panasonic from Tumich. BMS's rule.

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Re: another 80-100 rear drive build thread (now with pics)

Post by crossbreak » Feb 02 2012 6:42pm

Hey docnjoj !

Thanks for the TongXin MidDrive tip! It's just like I imagine, also thanks to y amberwolf who tried to build that:

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amberwolf shows us a 24t sprocket on the motor

I think the sprocket is too large for my purpose

The motor does 190rpm at 36V. I want 100 at the crankwheel. I have 38t on it. So I calculate t=38/190*100=20

I guess I will be lucky with 18.

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Re: another 80-100 rear drive build thread (now with pics)

Post by docnjoj » Feb 03 2012 5:51pm

Yes I am definitely looking forward to following AW's build.
otherDoc
E-bike stable at our house

Steintrike Mad Max full suspension trike rear Cute 100H going on: Whoops, Cute wheel broke but I fixed it.
Sun USX delta trike EbikeKit small geared front wheel sort of front suspension for wife

Agniusm/A123 AMP 20 36 volts on the Steini has been taken off.
2x16000 Multisport from HK now gone as they died after 2 years
New Luna 10S bottle battery 13.6AH now on mine
Relatively New 10S4Px2 for wife's bike giving 20ah @ 40 volts home made Panasonic from Tumich. BMS's rule.

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crossbreak   100 MW

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Re: another 80-100 rear drive build thread (now with pics)

Post by crossbreak » Feb 05 2012 6:45pm

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Notice that one bearing is missing. I had only one 12x21x5mm one, I have to buy a second. It should be pushed into the right part in the picture below. Also a bushing which should be between the bearings isn't manufactured jet.

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I know that a second freewheel doesnt make much sence, but the one I used has much less drag than the originial one still build-in.

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docnjoj   100 GW

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Re: another 80-100 rear drive build thread (now with pics)

Post by docnjoj » Feb 07 2012 3:51pm

That looks very professional and sanitary, Crossbreak. I will subscribe mainly to see how well that roller motor holds up!
otherDoc
E-bike stable at our house

Steintrike Mad Max full suspension trike rear Cute 100H going on: Whoops, Cute wheel broke but I fixed it.
Sun USX delta trike EbikeKit small geared front wheel sort of front suspension for wife

Agniusm/A123 AMP 20 36 volts on the Steini has been taken off.
2x16000 Multisport from HK now gone as they died after 2 years
New Luna 10S bottle battery 13.6AH now on mine
Relatively New 10S4Px2 for wife's bike giving 20ah @ 40 volts home made Panasonic from Tumich. BMS's rule.

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Samd   1.21 GW

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Re: another 80-100 rear drive build thread (now with pics)

Post by Samd » Feb 07 2012 4:20pm

+1 subscribed.
http://ballaratebikes.com/

ImageImageImage
"Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing that a 165mm rear shock can't deliver 220mm of rear swingarm travel." - Oprah Winfrey.

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crossbreak   100 MW

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Re: another 80-100 rear drive build thread (now with pics)

Post by crossbreak » Feb 08 2012 8:35pm

OK! Now you got me :D

I will test this motor in my black mountainbike first, just like the Conhis motor ;)
i mean this one (note my new 130mm fork and 203mm brake rotor :D )

The fork was 40 bucks from the bay, the disk about 10 with shipping from china

I can also recommend the upper head light ( an Cree XML T6 Flaslight front end ), for about 15 bucks with shipping from the chinese bay.

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GITech   100 W

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Re: another 80-100 rear drive build thread (now with pics)

Post by GITech » Feb 10 2012 7:11pm

Awesome crossbreak! Thanks for the insite on many different topics and all the pics. :shock:

I just read both of your threads. You have done a lot of different things in a short time! Very cool!

I was just looking into breaks. I see that a 9" disc rotor is available for the Fox-40 (the fork I'm using), I was thinking about going for that but are much more expesive than ~$10. from china for a 203mm!

Oh, gotta cut it short, baby's crying! :cry:

Later,
Jay
Ebike: Wallmart Genesis frame, unique Lovejoy 2-speed simplified/redundant drive mounted on custom aluminum swingarm conceptualized by me, machined by Thud. Brushless 80-100~100kv w/halls, 16s6p - 59.9v, 30Ah, 1.7+KWh, Fully Loaded Lyen 12 FET 3077 controller w/ Cycle-Analyst, full custom lighting.

Thanks to Justin at ebikes.ca for saving ES!

Ideas and projects by GITech are protected by: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/3.0/


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crossbreak   100 MW

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Re: another 80-100 rear drive build thread (now with pics)

Post by crossbreak » Feb 10 2012 8:38pm

GITech wrote: I was just looking into breaks. I see that a 9" disc rotor is available for the Fox-40 (the fork I'm using), I was thinking about going for that but are much more expesive than ~$10. from china for a 203mm!
the 10 bucks was an auction. But there are tektro brake disks for 15 bucks fixed price. 9" would be more than 203mm.
But advertance for your bayb is most important. Don't bother with disk brakes ;) My drive would be further if I'd have done that. Maybe I'd even had a child myself :D I see that you postet just minutes ago.. are you from europe?
You have done a lot of different things in a short time! Very cool!
that's what a learning engineer does ;) I dont want to do sth. else the next 5 years. My concepts get cheaper lighter and more simple with each iteration (about 35 yet).

But I will come back to the first topic (80-85 hub) again.

Im really intersted in your topic. Please post more pics also ;)

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Re: another 80-100 rear drive build thread (now with pics)

Post by crossbreak » Feb 12 2012 4:58pm

Finished the tongxin motor today (bushings etc.) , next sundays comes the housing. Sry for no pics.

I also started a tutorial thread about the delta to star resoldering for getting 75KV out of the 80-100 KV130, which I hope will be finished next sunday also:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 30&t=36767

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Re: another 80-100 rear drive build thread (now with pics)

Post by crossbreak » Feb 21 2012 6:23pm

I threw away my primary concept. Not really stealthy. The new one is more :mrgreen:
I exchanged the 18T 1/2"x1/8" frewheel sprocket for a 15T 8mmx3mm sprocket. That way the motor can be mounted below thebottom bracket.

Sadly I couldn't write the WYE tutorial, since I had too much to do. But here's the finished Tongxin motor, sadly I had no time for a mount yet :(
You can hope for next weekend :D

Notice the slots i sawed in to make it possible to push the motor into the extruded 90mm (100mm outer dia) alu alloy tube. The motor measures 91.05mm in diameter (edit: the upper cast piece is only 90.5mm). It was too hard to push it with the bench wise without the slots. I can pull it out again with a puller.
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Notice the rather short chain
The sprocket has 15, the chainwheel 35 teeth.
Iknow that this is really thight, but it saves so much place. Let's see how long it will survive ;)
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Last edited by crossbreak on Feb 23 2012 4:19pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: another 80-100 rear drive build thread (now with pics)

Post by crossbreak » Feb 23 2012 4:08pm

the green mount is made from polyethylen, which was first rasped and heated to 130°C (it gets flexible at 100°C, it melts at 150??) in the oven then squeezed by the srews. Makes a perfect fit.
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Last edited by crossbreak on Mar 28 2012 5:19pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: another 80-100 rear drive build thread (now with pics)

Post by crossbreak » Feb 23 2012 5:24pm

btw I had a short ride on it this morning. except the sporadic chain noises it is really quiet : :oops: sounds like bad allignment.

I'll try to make a vid if they're gone..

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Re: another 80-100 rear drive build thread (now with pics)

Post by crossbreak » Feb 29 2012 9:49am

The mounts bend too much, thats why the chain makes noises and sporadicly jumped off. I fixed this problem by adding 2x20mm aluminium bars between the housing and the bracket to keep the distance when the motor pulls on the chain. It's a kind of a chain tensioner, it's not final, but it now works completely silent, the noise from the wheels is louder :D No cyclist or pedestrian I pass recognizes me first if I don't bell
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another bar on the tension side of the chain:

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The last problem to solve is the load on the front freewheel. It sometimes stalls, it''s bended to hard. the distance between it and the chain ring is too large (I marked it in the picture below). Another bearing between the shaft and the chainring could take this load (it's also shown in the cad picture below)
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Last edited by crossbreak on Mar 28 2012 5:20pm, edited 4 times in total.


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Re: another 80-100 rear drive build thread (now with pics)

Post by crossbreak » Feb 29 2012 7:16pm

here you can see the bearing between the chainring and the bottom bracket that i meant.
The 8mm chain was waste after about 90km :( I'll try a 3/8 x 7/32" chain with 13 to 32T now.
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the swing arm isn't where it should, but it shows the principle.


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