RIP E+/EMS?

This post popped up on our boards over at the Google Tidalforce Forum today where I'm a moderator. E+'s website has had SOLD OUT plastered on virtually all of its stock for a while now and the initial rumor was that they were relocating. I found that suspicious and if Dmitri's post is accurate, it appears my suspicions were well founded.

Can anyone here confirm that EMS/E+ has folded their tent? Damn shame if it's true. More warranty work for LEVT I'd guess.

http://groups.google.com/group/tidalforce/browse_thread/thread/bb72426c73324590

Larry Hayes

They have been having battery supply problems. A friend of mine has an E+ and this is what they told him back in November.

Jason,

This is an old story re EMS's battery problems, and the fact is they never seemed to resolve it, nor were they able to make the leap to lithium or even produce a reliable aux NIMH pack. :-(

Interestingly (and sadly), the same problems plagued Wavecrest/Tidalforce before they went under--their aux B packs (with Saft NIMH D cells identical to the ones in the front hub pack) were a disaster; one dealer I spoke to in CA said that virtually every one he sold was problematic and had to be returned. As brilliant as their motors and controllers were--I have nearly 15K miles on mine without a problem--their battery pack engineering skills left much to be desired. (BTW many of the same engineers from Wavecrest became EMS employees after Wavecrest got out of the e-bike business, and that may have been part of the problem, i.e. lack of fresh talent to solve their pack problems.)

I think the only happy TF owners at this point are people like myself who have patched in their own aux packs (and sometimes ditched the front hub pack as well). I've been happily running my S750X on pure (Flightmax) lipoly power for years now and have seen about a 25%+ boost in power due to the minimal sag vs. NIMH, with burst readings as high as 1500W (and even higher below 6 mph when the hi-torque mode kicks in).

Separately, EMS also had some serious problems with their consoles crapping out. One former E+ owner posting at the TF Google forum reported that he'd bought two of their bikes, he was initially so impressed with them, only to have both go down within a year or so due to computer/console malfunctions. In the long run I believe the Tidalforce motors/controllers/consoles will prove to be the superior design--based on these reports and others, it seems obvious to me that shortcuts were taken by the EMS engineers when they redesigned the E+ motor and electronics to avoid patent infringement and drive costs down. JMHO.

LH

This is truly sad news. I really hope they are not going out of business. I own a E+ Mtn bike and its been a great bike. I was the first e-bike I bought which got me into the addictive sport. The controller is great and the throttle and motor are incredibly smooth and silent. Ive had no problems and probably have close to 900 miles on it. Customer service has been fantastic. My only complaint has been how heavy the bike is, about 74 lbs. I had the lipo battery that they sold and ditched the front wheel battery which was fantastic until the battery was recalled and had to go back to the heavy NMh hub.
Does anyone know if it is possible to replace the front wheel battery with a rear aux lipo battery, Im curious if anyone has had success with this?
Lets hope E+ is just reorganizing.

Definitely sad... it makes you wonder if there's really a market for extremely expensive e-bikes??? The same thing happened to Ultra Motor just a few months back...

You can blame it on all the technical issues, but we've definitely had a hard time convincing the 'average joe' to spend $2500+ on an e-bike. Heck! It's even hard to convince them to spend $1000+!

Makes me slightly worried about the Stromer line that we carry. They're extremely high-end and we've sold a decent amount. Luckily no major problems so far (and they seem to be going strong), but from a dealer stand-point there's nothing worse than having to support a product after a company goes out of business. Another example... ECOBIKE. Parts are almost non-existant and it's been a huge headache to address repairs...

Your right Jeremy its definitely hard to convince someone to spend $2k on an ebikes even when the bike is high quality and worth the price. Too many people see the cheap ebikes sold at wall mart and think they are getting a good deal when really they are buying junk.

Larry,
welcome to this forum!!!
As you remember I own TF with very high millage of 21,470 km as of today andit is great ebike no doubt one of the best in the world.
I also bought 1000W E+ just last summer 2011 andit has been fantastic ebike in most aspects BETTER than Tidal Force.
I examined front hub battery opened twice and it is pleasure to look at design and high quality of front
hub , but NMH is nickelisnickel chemistry.
EMS went long way to maximaze life of E+ battery for sure, it is clear from analizing 2 circuit boards inside front hub.
Charging procedure is better than on old TF I am sure with long balancing stage at the end of charging. I crossed 1000miles/1600km/ on my E+ and it has been pleasure to ride.
One of the nice feature of E+ are power levels which greatly allow me to conserve batery on my rides. there are NO gadgets.
Throttle on E+ is much better,more linear and predictable and pleasure to operate than on TF. TF throttle is still better than China on-off throttles but cannot match E+.
On TF throttle contribute Wattshour wastage but not been so well modulated - it is very imprtant on ebike.
As you noticed E+ no load speed is significally higher than on TF due to field weakening technique employed on E+, this onlyfact is very important for efficiencyof system.
E+ motor/controller is much ligher than TForce.

Miro,

Agree, EMS made many positive changes with the E+, particularly weight- and water resistance-wise.

Re throttles, I find all thumb throttles toyish and upgraded many moons ago to a Magura twist and can't imagine going back.

Only time and miles will tell if the E+ motor, controller, and console have the durability of the Tidalforce. My money's on TF just based on the # of failures that have been reported on the E+'s to date.

Separately, several posters here have referred to the E+ as a "high-priced e-bike," which I find laughable when some models went for around $2500 on sale, while many Opti and Stealth bikes are going into 5 figures these days. Granted, the latter have significant range advantages and the Stealth are power beasts, but dollar for dollar the E+ was clearly the bargain, and it's just a damn shame EMS's owners/engineers never addressed the range limitations or perfected an aux battery pack. I find this particularly frustrating given that Wavecrest failed at the same tasks and EMS had years to remedy these obvious shortcomings.

E+ owners better hope and pray that EMS (or what's left of it) takes care of its customers' future service and repair needs since these are NOT user friendly motors/electronics and, once the bikes are out of warranty, the company is no longer obliged to support them. Wavecrest had deep enough pockets to contract LEVT for this kind of future support, but there's no guarantee EMS will do the same, and the two motors are different enough that I doubt LEVT will be able to work on the E+ without EMS training and equipment.

LH

P.S. For those who may not know, Miro neglects to mention his first E+ motor/controller had pulsing problems and had to be returned to Dulles from Canada for replacement (with at least one leg of the expensive shipping on the owner's dime if I recall correctly), so take his rave review with a grain of salt.

That said, I hope his replacement motor goes for many trouble-free years and miles.

LH

sure
you can read about my faulty E+ motor and I wrote all over TF Google forum about it so much to the point that I was even rudely rebuked by one moderator , he must have had bad day , because it was harsh attack on me for what? Posting too many times ??????

EMS repaired it swiftly and it is thing of the past now.
Important is that mine was ISOLATED problem, no one of at least 10 owners I know about had similar problem.
For all owners of E+ who worry what after original hub battery starts to get weak.
Every E+ system will run on any 36V battery as long as data connector to front hub is connected.
I checked it out myself.
Getting rid of front hub is much more difficult than on Tidal Force but possible. At very minimum you would have to carry part of hub BMS circuity which I am planning to simply incorporate into my new 36V battery to power my E+.
Performance of E+ is so good on NMH , imagine performance on A123???
TF is my workhorse of ebike commuting but is simply old technology which cannot match E+ futures mainly efficiency and lightness of the system.
I did not mean how throttle is activated and how it is constructed but rather electronics which are activated by it and software .
When is not linear is not linear no matter you twist or push it.

"extremaly expensive" ebike?
which E+ ?
I would call optibike extremaly expensive,but E+ ? not at all.
For $2500 on sale it is quite a value I would say and 1000W kits EMS offered for $1600 were real bargains.
We are talking here USA design motor/electronics built in USA.

I heard Pedego is next to go.

Jason,

Any real evidence re Pedego going belly up or just rumor/heresay?

LH

mrdavies,
if you are going to read this post.
Yes, you can connect any 36V battery of your choice to E+ and it will power up normally, throttle active, I tried it.
It is quite simple.
I just made temporary hook up but for permanent connection you would have to buy and install Delphi connector with green rubber seal identical one which on front hub.
Have a look at pictures.
Battery is not shown but those thick wires are for battery, red plus, black minus.

I want to make one point here.
Aux E+ LiPoly battery was just addition to E+ system added later on year or more after production started .
It does not affects main E+ electric system in any way after is just disconnected.
But this aux pack demonstrate that on Lithium E+ has even more amazing performance, namely acceleration and max speed can be maintained much longer into the ride than on NMH hub.
I found that my E+ becomes noticable more sluggish even after only 20% discharge.

I look at NMH front hub on my E+ as a TEMPORARY battery, just like on my Tidal Force.

I am convinced that E+ motor/controller will last very long time, just like TF motor/controller.
JUST by looking inside front hub twice and seeing inside motor/controller pictures tells me that EMS made real effort to make E+ to last for many kms.
Mechanically it is similar to TF , like
sealed Japanese bearings, wires enter motor through individual holes /no through center of axle/ with individual seal on each wire
in solid CNC machined hub, water proof Delphi connectors, etc.
Read here about Metalman
he reached 4300 miles on his. Read all thread
his E+ 1000W is used on heavy duty big, very heavy cargo bike, not your average MTB bike,
it is like carrying two people on one bike all the time.
It tells me a lot about E+ system durability, maybe he has this water penetration one or twice on his display, I fix it on my E+ by applying common sense, but it is not important
durability of E+ motor/controller - that is what important.
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/714452-My-E-review/page5

I have an M-750x2.0 E+ bike and its built more solid than my Acura. I can't say enough about this company, and my neihgbor ended up buying an E+ bike just over 2 months ago after riding mine. Its hard to put the blame on any one thing, but we all know the difficulties that small businesses face in America in light of walmart etc.

For you E+ members who are worried about service, I have had personal confirmation from someone working at E+ that parts, overhauls and other services will still be available (someone is taking over the servicing)...they are currently working it out. I don't want to post it publically, so if you want more specifics PM me.

Thanks,

I agree e plus had some well made products. Far better than ebikes sold at wall mart.