Nuvinci CVT hub

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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MattyCiii   100 kW

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Post by MattyCiii » May 05 2007 11:16pm

I bought one of these things and installed it today. It's pretty nice, powerful, smooth... I only had time for a short test ride so I'll post more info once I've taken the thing > a mile. Also I'm having touble figuring out how to post pics, so bear with me for that.
~Matt

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CGameProgrammer   10 kW

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Post by CGameProgrammer » May 06 2007 12:14am

What are the controller's outputs? I see the three motor phase wires (M1/2/3) and the two battery inputs (B-/+) but where's the Hall sensor one? Is it that thing in the lower-left? Also, can the controller work with over 48V? Hub motors seem to need voltage more than amps for high speeds, from what I understand.

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EbikeMaui   1 kW

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Post by EbikeMaui » May 06 2007 2:26am

CGameProgrammer wrote:What are the controller's outputs? I see the three motor phase wires (M1/2/3) and the two battery inputs (B-/+) but where's the Hall sensor one? Is it that thing in the lower-left? Also, can the controller work with over 48V? Hub motors seem to need voltage more than amps for high speeds, from what I understand.

http://www.sevcon.com/pages/millipakPMAC.html
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fechter   100 GW

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Post by fechter » May 06 2007 10:49am

The Millipak PMAC is limited to 48v. It's made for golf cars or forklift trucks. Not exactly ideal for hub motors. I suppose you could rewind or reconfigure a hub motor to run at a lower voltage/higher current. The size of the wires going through the axle might be the limiting factor.

Resistance losses are porportional to I2R, so running a higher voltage at a lower current has real advantages.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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EbikeMaui   1 kW

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Post by EbikeMaui » May 06 2007 2:13pm

fechter wrote:The Millipak PMAC is limited to 48v. It's made for golf cars or forklift trucks. Not exactly ideal for hub motors. I suppose you could rewind or reconfigure a hub motor to run at a lower voltage/higher current. The size of the wires going through the axle might be the limiting factor.

Resistance losses are porportional to I2R, so running a higher voltage at a lower current has real advantages.
Most motor stator windings come in lower voltage configurations.If your ammount od copper is equal with less turns and your wire size you are using is gaged right all will be equal in efficiency.providing the motor is not exceeding its rated specs.Any 3 phase hub motor rated for 36 or 48 volts would work fine. or better than it would with any other controller you can find.The limiting factor would be THE MOTOR but you can program these limits into the controller.Isn't it time to have RELIBILITY that no one has seen yet in a brushless ebike controller? Lets see how long the new $900. Bionix controllers last?
The limiting factor of 40 amp X-lite conttollers is the amprage going through them.Now a 300 amp limit would surly not warm up this controlleer with a 50 amp load.But it could fry most ANY motor without frying the controller.But it has programable limits.
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fechter   100 GW

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Post by fechter » May 06 2007 9:14pm

The Sevcon would make sense for a golf car sized vehicle. It's pretty much overkill for a bike. No worries about blowing the FETs in one of those babys, that's for sure. Rewinding a motor is not all that much fun, nor is it really easy. In fact, it's a major pain in the ass if you don't need to do it.

Not only do we need better controllers, but we need motors that match them.

I'm trying to stay within the constraints of what is currently available on the market. Everybody's going to have to wait until I make a million dollars doing something else before I'm going to invest in making controllers. I was hoping somebody else would make a decent one.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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roller   1 W

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Post by roller » May 08 2007 8:52pm

ok, hillclimbing at speed and the lameness or not of hub motors was a bit off topic, but golf cart controllers is really getting out there.

let's bring it back to Nu Vinci.
MattyCiii, what are you putting that thing on?

I'm having spokes cut for my NuV on a 20" wheel and the Jackelope.

Randy, you can find the specs here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... c&start=30

These will be a baseline for any improvements with NuV. This is a motor only application, no pedals.

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MattyCiii   100 kW

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NuVinci hub

Post by MattyCiii » May 09 2007 4:16pm

I've got the NuV mounted in 20" wheels on a Dahon "Helios" 2005 folding bike. It's a human power only rig, but I hope to join the EV ranks, soon.

Took it for 12+ mile ride yesterday and am about to do 12 to 15 more... It works great and it's quite a feeling to always have the perfect ratio at my disposak, or to slowly increase the ratio, dynamically as I accelerate from a stop.

More feedback, and hopefully pictures, tonight.
~Matt

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Post by Lowell » May 09 2007 4:35pm

Can you vary the gear ratio without letting up on the pedals?

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EbikeMaui   1 kW

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Post by EbikeMaui » May 09 2007 4:57pm

roller wrote:ok, hillclimbing at speed and the lameness or not of hub motors was a bit off topic, but golf cart controllers is really getting out there.

let's bring it back to Nu Vinci.
MattyCiii, what are you putting that thing on?

I'm having spokes cut for my NuV on a 20" wheel and the Jackelope.

Randy, you can find the specs here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... c&start=30

These will be a baseline for any improvements with NuV. This is a motor only application, no pedals.
Motor ONLY is not for Ebikes either. If 20 lb hub motors and $500. hub transmissions are for ebikes this single speed motor for $350. with a programable controler should fit right in at being 89% efficient up to 5000 watts for efficient reserve power. With single chain reduction 100 ft lbs of torque can be cranked up at ANYTIME! more efficiently without any worry of breaking.To make It a hub motor just put a brake drum wheel on it's shaft.
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Lowell   1 MW

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Post by Lowell » May 09 2007 5:04pm

Can you post some installation examples on bicycle frames?

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EbikeMaui   1 kW

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Post by EbikeMaui » May 20 2007 1:49am

Lowell wrote:Can you post some installation examples on bicycle frames?
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CGameProgrammer   10 kW

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Post by CGameProgrammer » May 20 2007 3:02am

An interesting design, though I'm not sure if that sort of suspension setup can deal with the stresses it may face at e-bike speeds. But I'm no expert.

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TylerDurden   100 GW

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Post by TylerDurden » May 20 2007 8:17am

The design seems pretty reasonable: dual suspension, motor and battery weight in the center, motor and pedal chains on-axis... what's not to like?

The addition of a nuvinci cvp to that kind of an ebike could be significant step towards a PIC-based automatic tranny. Motor selections could vary based on enduser intentions.

:D
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TylerDurden   100 GW

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Post by TylerDurden » May 20 2007 8:37am

I've been checking-out the bikes at the box-retailers.

More bikes are becoming available with the bot-bracket on the main triangle, rather than the swing-arm.

They would be easier to stretch by adding elements that can mount a motor ahead of the wheel, like Randy's design.

:D
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mahalo111   10 µW

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Independent tester available!

Post by mahalo111 » May 20 2007 1:28pm

Hey All, This is my first post although I've been reading and researching pa bikes for a while. I truly CAN appreciate Randy's ebike and accomplishments. I live halfway up Haleakala Volcano in Maui and drive daily the route Randy took on the cycle to the sun. I rented a Bionx hub motor and quickly realized they are no match for the steep inclines here. I had to walk it uphill half a mile home yesterday! Anyway, I would love to independently confirm his results. Let me know Randy.

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Post by Lowell » May 20 2007 1:33pm

Who rents BionX systems there? I'd like to see a pic of the rental bike. At only 350W, the PL350 would be very underpowered on any hills.

Why did you have to walk it? Dead battery? Did the bike not have a low enough gear to pedal?

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Post by EbikeMaui » May 20 2007 5:48pm

CGameProgrammer wrote:An interesting design, though I'm not sure if that sort of suspension setup can deal with the stresses it may face at e-bike speeds. But I'm no expert.
If my $80. Kmart bike could handle ALL kinds abuse for 4 years and 20,000 miles without breaking Im sure a double frame with less battery weight would be even better! I had 100 lbs of Evercels on the same bike for two years until I replaced them with 14 lbs of lithium.
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Bionx in Maui

Post by mahalo111 » May 20 2007 7:10pm

Who rents BionX systems there? I'd like to see a pic of the rental bike. At only 350W, the PL350 would be very underpowered on any hills.
Scott at Rip current cyclery has one and is a dealer for them here on maui. He allowed me to rent it for the weekend to see how it would do for me in Kula. It was a blast on flat ground or with a sllight incline, but these areas are few and far between around here.
Why did you have to walk it? Dead battery? Did the bike not have a low enough gear to pedal?
I don't know all that much about bikes, and even less about electric bikes. I know the Schwin Bike that the system is on has 24 gears and I had it in the lowest possible gear and full power assist but I was still wiped after a short distance back to my house. There was only one bar left on the battery meter but I thought this shoudn't affect lithiums. Any recomendations on a bike or kit that can handle it out here?




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Re: Bionx in Maui

Post by Lowell » May 20 2007 9:14pm

mahalo111 wrote:
Who rents BionX systems there? I'd like to see a pic of the rental bike. At only 350W, the PL350 would be very underpowered on any hills.
Scott at Rip current cyclery has one and is a dealer for them here on maui. He allowed me to rent it for the weekend to see how it would do for me in Kula. It was a blast on flat ground or with a sllight incline, but these areas are few and far between around here.
Why did you have to walk it? Dead battery? Did the bike not have a low enough gear to pedal?
I don't know all that much about bikes, and even less about electric bikes. I know the Schwin Bike that the system is on has 24 gears and I had it in the lowest possible gear and full power assist but I was still wiped after a short distance back to my house. There was only one bar left on the battery meter but I thought this shoudn't affect lithiums. Any recomendations on a bike or kit that can handle it out here?




[/img]
Do you have a bike already that you're looking to electrify?

What sort of speed and range are you looking for? Are you ok with noisy chains and gears?

And most important, what is your budget?

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CGameProgrammer   10 kW

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Post by CGameProgrammer » May 20 2007 11:01pm

EbikeMaui wrote:
CGameProgrammer wrote:An interesting design, though I'm not sure if that sort of suspension setup can deal with the stresses it may face at e-bike speeds. But I'm no expert.
If my $80. Kmart bike could handle ALL kinds abuse for 4 years and 20,000 miles without breaking Im sure a double frame with less battery weight would be even better! I had 100 lbs of Evercels on the same bike for two years until I replaced them with 14 lbs of lithium.
Is your Kmart bike identical to your drawing? It's the central joint that I remain wary of; it looks like too much stress would be dealt to it. Consider this Trek FS bike:

Image

The front is a solid triangle, and there's a vertical spring to deal with even severe bumps at high speeds that the bike may face. Your design only has a horizontal spring, which can deal well with the force of the motor but maybe not with vertical forces, plus the weight of the rider and the front area of the bike would all be placed on the pivot near the crank.

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Post by mahalo111 » May 21 2007 12:28am

I'm looking for a complete bike or purchasing a bike and kit to assemble (leaning this way). My main requirment is that is has the torque to handle steep hills with some assist. I've been looking at the optibike and will check it out when Craig comes out here in june. It's a little cost prohibitive for me unfortunately. I don't mind a little noise from a chain and gears and my budget is around $2000. Thanks for any input! Sorry to be off topic.
Do you have a bike already that you're looking to electrify?

What sort of speed and range are you looking for? Are you ok with noisy chains and gears?

And most important, what is your budget?

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Post by Lowell » May 21 2007 1:36am

How fast do you want to go up steep hills? Would you be ok with Optibike type speeds and power?

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Post by mahalo111 » May 21 2007 2:30am

How fast do you want to go up steep hills? Would you be ok with Optibike type speeds and power?
From watching the videos, the speed and power of the optibike seems good. I think I would want at least this much power though as another thing I noticed when testing the BionX is how vulnerable I felt on the roads here with blind turns, fast drivers and many places with no shoulder. Would be great to be able to accelerate quickly through these areas, but still be able to get some exercise using only power assist in safe or comfortable riding areas. Actually unless I was able to accelerate quickly through the dangerous sections, I probably would't ride. I really like the speed and handling of your bike. Thanks again for your input.

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EbikeMaui   1 kW

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Post by EbikeMaui » May 21 2007 3:27am

TylerDurden wrote:The design seems pretty reasonable: dual suspension, motor and battery weight in the center, motor and pedal chains on-axis... what's not to like?

The addition of a nuvinci cvp to that kind of an ebike could be significant step towards a PIC-based automatic tranny. Motor selections could vary based on enduser intentions.

:D
The thing is if you baught a $350. brushless Etek you can get better efficiency with a single speed and have a programable range to 5000 watts. The $450 you could save on a Divinci (if you can use it for the motor on a bike with two chains going to the reduction in common) The eteck Sevcon controller costs the same. All parts are available today off the shelf.
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