eaBike vs eBike vs eMotorcycle

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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DrkAngel
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eaBike vs eBike vs eMotorcycle

Post by DrkAngel » Mar 29, 2012 12:28 pm

Given it's own thread - continued from - mid drive hub motor advantages?
MadRhino wrote:@DrkAngel

All those numbers are fine, but most lack a 0 at the end to make any Ebike interesting to me.
When you start feeding 10 times human power, which I consider only the beginning of interesting performance, a bicycle drive train is not very long to show its limits.
In a way ... I must agree ...

Human power?

According to "NASA 1964", a "Healthy man" is capable of:
About 200 watt sustained for 30 minutes
About 150 watt sustained for 60 minutes
100-150 watt seems a reasonable sustained "human assist" on an eBike! ... ?

I, personally, would like to sub-categorize "eBikes", into 3 categorizes.

1. eaBikes - electric assist bikes
<750 watt output motor ?
Healthy man is capable of sustaining 20%, or more, of the eBikes propulsion

2. eBikes - electric bikes
>750 watt output motor ?
Where healthy man is capable of reasonable contribution - but, essentially, only during limited throttle use.
Due to wind resistance, a tucked position increases range, better than a "proper" pedaling position.
Somewhere near 30 mph, the cyclist, (<10-15% contribution), is detrimental, to speed and range, compared to a more aerodynamically positioned, (non-pedaling), rider.

3. eMotorcycle - incapable of any "reasonable" % pedal assist
Pedals are "ornamental", if they even exist!

Note: 750w (watt) = 1hp = USA, Federally recommended, eBike limitation.
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Re: eaBike vs eBike vs eMotorcycle

Post by LegendLength » Mar 29, 2012 6:49 pm

I think it's an interesting area that we all know about in the back of our minds but doesn't really get discussed explicitly. Those 3 options: ea-bike, e-bike and e-motorcycle are of course part of a new spectrum we're creating.

Optimally you'd want the power of an e-motorcycle in the frame of an electric assist bike, with the strength of the e-moto. What's hard in reality though is figuring out when to put the wrench down and stopping adding batteries and motor power. Because in reality we have to deal with weight & momentum so each step up the power ladder makes us more like motorcycles than bikes.

Personally my goal is something with the strength of a dirt bike frame but lighter and with less power (15 kW / 20 HP / 100 cc 2 stroke power).

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Re: eaBike vs eBike vs eMotorcycle

Post by DrkAngel » Mar 30, 2012 7:24 am

I would rate, most all, pre-built eBikes as eaBikes. (electric assist Bikes)
Most are limited to 20 mph, and all, seem to, require pedal assist to attain "reasonable" range - 20miles?

Happily, "stretching" the top speed and range can be interesting ... and fun.
I set my personal goal at 30mph, that allows me to meld smoothly, with local traffic.
Typically I "cruise" at about 20mph, great for most of my commuting routes, trails, paths etc., but there are unavoidable sections of 30mph "heavy traffic". The only "safe" options are to match their speed, or wait on a side street till they get a red light, then "hump it" to keep ahead of them for several blocks (a nice morning workout!).
"Pushing" a 20mph eaBike to 30mph can be reasonably easy and moderately safe, pushing designed capability to 150% seems acceptable if offset by load capacity reduction, below ~250lb capacity rating. (165lb rider?)

Honestly ... I fear for the builders, pushing their oem bikes towards 40-50mph+ capabilities.
That exceeds the designed capabilities by an outrageous degree.
Most recognize this and spend a "comparative fortune" on upgrading components!
But the build is only as safe as the weakest link ...

I have nothing against, even, highway speed capability.
It just seems, much safer and cheaper to rebuild a motorcycle as an eMotorcycle.
Tires, brakes, frame, suspension ... every component is designed for the weight, power and speed!
While a 40-50mph eBike might not be considered as street legal ... most anywhere! ... ?
A motorcycle "eConversion" gives you a Title, Registration, VIN number, everything you need for legal street use, including Insurance!

Trust me, if you are ever in an "incident" with a "hopped up" eBike build, you will want insurance!
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Re: eaBike vs eBike vs eMotorcycle

Post by sk8norcal » Mar 30, 2012 2:40 pm

ETRA proposal for a new class of ebikes, 28mph max
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Some countries' national laws allow for what are essentially electric ‘superbikes’ – in a class between red tape-free bicycles (including electric bicycles) and mopeds. Germany’s ‘leichtmofa’ class includes electric bikes capable of assistance up to 45km/h (28mph) and with up to 500 watt motors. A licence and insurance is required but not a helmet and the bikes are not allowed on bike paths. Switzerland also has a ‘fast class’ of electric bike with companies such as Velocity and Swiss Flyer making bikes specifically for it.

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Re: eaBike vs eBike vs eMotorcycle

Post by John in CR » Mar 30, 2012 7:39 pm

I simplify it even further:
1. Electric assist- for the guys who like to pedal
2. Human assist- As long as the pedal line is function, then I believe it should be more than ornamental, since at a minimum it provides emergency backup in the event of an electric breakdown or just run out of juice. For quite a while my cargo bike was set up so I was able to give the cranks a few turns and actually assist in takeoffs.

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Re: eaBike vs eBike vs eMotorcycle

Post by veloman » Mar 30, 2012 11:30 pm

The problem in most areas is that you have to share the road with auto traffic that wants to and will travel very fast. If didn't have to share the road with cars, I'd probably be happy with a 750w setup.

I bet most people will be telling you to get a motorcycle go slow on a bike/ebike. The ebike you mention accomplishes what no other form of transportation can though! It's efficient and lightweight enough to benefit from human assist, and doesn't require a massive battery+motor, or gas/pollution creation. It also doesn't force the rider into a doing a workout and allows them to go normal distances on tiny amounts of electrical power. Of course, conventional thinking and gov't officials have never seen this perspective. I hope in time they do and we have a legal ebike class allowed to go 28mph, use bike lanes when appropriate, use bike racks and so on...

The emotorcycle is not succeeding. Same reason why the electric car isn't - batteries still too expensive, among other reasons.

The ebike represents the pinnacle of independent, efficient, quick, safe, low cost, very low pollution, healthy and FUN transportation for most populated areas.

I looked at an electric scooter - the E-max. The thing is HUGE, you might as well be riding an all out gas motorcycle. EVs are suppose to be lightweight, smaller, fun to ride.
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Re: eaBike vs eBike vs eMotorcycle

Post by tofuuu » Mar 31, 2012 4:14 am

Uh i think there is a problem with your groups. The same problem the govt has when it does ebike legislation. There is no set "750 watts" with electric motors. And even assuming bikes had their power capped the watt rating still wouldnt mean anything because different hub motors perform differently at different power. You can look at the 6t 8t mac thread and see people swearing that X motor is less effecient at X speed.

Its far easier to just set a maximum speed limit to seperate classes of ebikes and the assist they are capable of. I personally think theres 3 obvious classes of ebikes

Unassisted speed of <30km/h - definitely pedal assist bikes but pretty anaemic, a fit person could easily do these speeds.i think euros have adopted something similar
Unassisted speed of <45km/h - still assist but to a lesser extent, a fit person would probably not be able to maintain these speeds for very long. this is what i would like to be the standard ebike sold by big companies instead of what is offered above.
Unassisted speed of >45km/h - little to no reason to peddle, closer to a moped than a bike which some may disagree with, but i think in this class people should seriously start considering wearing proper safety gear having a good setup and possibly even things like brake lights.

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Re: eaBike vs eBike vs eMotorcycle

Post by DrkAngel » Apr 01, 2012 7:29 am

tofuuu wrote: Unassisted speed of <30km/h - definitely pedal assist bikes but pretty anaemic, a fit person could easily do these speeds.i think euros have adopted something similar
Unassisted speed of <45km/h - still assist but to a lesser extent, a fit person would probably not be able to maintain these speeds for very long. this is what i would like to be the standard ebike sold by big companies instead of what is offered above.
Unassisted speed of >45km/h - little to no reason to peddle, closer to a moped than a bike which some may disagree with, but i think in this class people should seriously start considering wearing proper safety gear having a good setup and possibly even things like brake lights.
30km/h=about 20mph
45km/h=about 30mph

While the USA "legal" eBike speed of 20mph greatly improves cyclist safety, (compared to 10mph cyclist, in a 30mph traffic environment), a 30mph eBike capability would allow "cyclists" to merge with traffic, rather than hinder, or impede!
Also, takes the cyclist out of the door kicker arena!
(30mph is the typical "in town"-"in city" speed limit. - USA)

I previously did a mathematical comparison of traffic interactions at various speeds. ... Bicycle Safety - The Math of Speed
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Re: eaBike vs eBike vs eMotorcycle

Post by DrkAngel » Apr 02, 2012 4:20 pm

DrkAngel wrote:
30km/h=about 20mph
45km/h=about 30mph

While the USA "legal" eBike speed of 20mph greatly improves cyclist safety, (compared to 10mph cyclist, in a 30mph traffic environment), a 30mph eBike capability would allow "cyclists" to merge with traffic, rather than hinder, or impede!
Also, takes the cyclist out of the door kicker arena!
(30mph is the typical "in town"-"in city" speed limit. - USA)

I previously did a mathematical comparison of traffic interactions at various speeds. ... Bicycle Safety - The Math of Speed
Wow! ... I forgot how much stuff got put into that thread.

Bicycle Safety - The Math of Speed - vs 30mph passing traffic.
Open Road Edition - vs 60mph Traffic
Other Traffic! 10 mph Biker vs 20 mph - 30 mph Traffic

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Re: eaBike vs eBike vs eMotorcycle

Post by DrkAngel » Apr 04, 2012 6:12 am

I believe that a 30mph eBike standard would be ideal.

So ideal, that ... ("choke") ... I would be willing to succumb to a "lights" requirement, (head, tail, turn, brake.)
I, already, meet? that requirement.
More importantly - To smoothly flow with 30mph traffic it would be important to be seen and to make clear the eBikers intentions (turns, braking etc.)

There are "cheap" tail-turn-brake light kits available, about $10, but I felt it necessary to upgrade the LEDS.
Oops, also upgraded, from 2 AA (3V) to 18650 3.7V rechargeable.
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Re: eaBike vs eBike vs eMotorcycle

Post by LI-ghtcycle » Apr 04, 2012 11:16 am

I like the idea of having an allowance for a 30MPH E-Bike, but why the hell can't it be used on bike paths too!? That is like making it legal to buy a sportscar and then making them illegal to drive in certain areas.

You can buy insanely powerful motorcycles in just about every state, and they don't restrict where you can ride, E-Bikes capable of 28 MPH covers a lot of the "legal" E-Bikes listed under the current 20MPH restriction, however, capable of 30MPH to me means with a head-wind or up a slight grade, and that isn't an unreasonably fast bike to be allowed on bike paths.

Once you start restricting E-Bikes from paths, you loose the reason to ride one, why would I ride a E-Bike instead of a scooter/motorcycle on the road when it's only capable of 30mph?

That would just create another bastard class of vehicles that will go the way of the moped, dead.

I'm much happier riding a slower E-Bike fast, than a 40MPH bike slow, however, I agree 40MPH is really pushing it, but once we start restricting things so much and categorizing things too close, all the reasons I ride an E-Bike in the first place disappear.
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Re: eaBike vs eBike vs eMotorcycle

Post by veloman » Apr 04, 2012 11:58 am

It really comes down to speed limits. I say put a speed limit on the bike path (many already have) and let any ebike on it.

I have no problem going 20mph if that's the speed limit on the bike path, even though my bike can go 35mph, as well as I can pedal my road bike 30-40mph too.
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Re: eaBike vs eBike vs eMotorcycle

Post by The fingers » Apr 04, 2012 1:18 pm

I've slowed down for safety and to increase range, so I can pedal more and keep warm(once the initial thrill wore off). Less stress, like driving a car @ the speed limit in the slow lane, using the cruise control. Try it sometime, you might enjoy missing the rat race and still have reserve power when needed.
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Re: eaBike vs eBike vs eMotorcycle

Post by dogman dan » Apr 04, 2012 1:36 pm

I tend to agree with fingers on that. 20-25 mph is my favorite speed to travel with ebikes. Less stressfull, able to enjoy the mountains view, which in my town is very nice. However, when the temps get above 100F, I can't say I mind a bike that goes a tad faster. I won't ride routes where more speed is needed for safety.

30 mph legal is perfect. You all need to move here where that is the law. 8) No watt limit whatsoever by the way, so it doesn't have to be a no fun 30 mph.

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Re: eaBike vs eBike vs eMotorcycle

Post by DrkAngel » Apr 05, 2012 10:16 am

I tend to "cruise" at 16-20mph.
Beyond that wind resistance becomes an, increasingly, energy robbing factor.
My eBike philosophy is based on energy conservation, so conserving, even cheap electricity, is a concern.

There are no dedicated bike trails, here.
Just a trail system, designed for multi-purpose traffic, walkers, joggers, runners, cyclists ... cross country skiing etc.
Care must be taken, meandering rabbles of college kids, families with kids on bikes, tricycles ... circling ... mindlessly!

If I want to get anywhere, promptly, I must use the streets.
Side streets @20+mph cover most of my needs, but there are several areas that require mixing with heavy 30mph+ traffic.

Just for "safety purposes", I keep one of my eBikes at 30mph capability ...
Yes, I honestly consider 30mph legality as a safety issue!
Both for myself, and for surrounding traffic.

Haven't had any complaints from the local coppers, so I have not incorporated my resister mod in the throttle. ... yet.
Resister, (trimable "POT"), cuts HALL voltage, to limit speed to "legal".
Hidden "Turbo" button bypasses resister.

All of my eBikes are pedal assist capable of 30mph@90rpm cadence. (44Tf - 11Tr sprockets)
20mph is a comfortable 60 rpm.
I do, constantly pedal assist.
So, the unobservant might believe me to be a world class cyclist. ... ?
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Re: eaBike vs eBike vs eMotorcycle

Post by pendragon8000 » Apr 30, 2013 8:06 pm

I like the sub-catagorization, thats a good idea, and the <>750 seems about right IMO . although i think it depends on the bike and aplication, as i have a 29er thats quick without a motor, when i use 750 watts on that it still goes pretty quick and i run semi sliks btw. however 750 watts on my heavy old 26 inch mongoose isnt really anything to get excited about but is still faster than 99% of lycras. Kepler's new build is a good example to with a geared hub in a carbon 29er, i think he said 750watts is too much for most of the paths he rides.

so keep in mind the bike's and bike rider's unassisted capabilities have a very significant role in the eaBike (<750) catagory.

I'm sure this is very obvious to some but just thought I'd put it out there.
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Re: eaBike vs eBike vs eMotorcycle

Post by Eskimo » May 01, 2013 1:49 am

In my opinion this true 750W is pretty much spot on. Around 950W goes in, so around 750W comes out true to the tarmac. Even this 750W will still not climb me back home, if i will not pedal at all. Well, it does, but very slowly, heating up, and consuming lots of power, no good. Weight of a rider is one big variant. i weigh 220lb. i would assume that with some 130lb rider this bike would be lot more sporty. 100lb off from a bicycle really changes things. For some over 200lb rider our 250W limit is just funny. Strong headwind needs close to WOT even with 750W. I usually cruise around 20mph. My front sprocket is only 38-size, my cadence starts to get too high after 25mph on top gear. I am considering to buy 42-size front sprocket.
Future of electric bike laws is interesting. Some changes are needed. E-bikes are just one of those things..if folks do not feel like criminals at all while doing it, then that law is not gonna live very long. That"s how laws change, when enough people just don"t give a damn, state has to change it before it gets too ridiculed. Our 25kph law is one of those. How can you convince a sane person, that elecric bicycle should be s l o w e r, than normal bicycle? That just won"t make any sense, it comes across as a state bullying. It"s throughoutly unlogical. Well, our law says that "over 25kph is a moped" Yeah, but many bicycles do over 25 kph. Are they mopeds then? So it"s not about speed, it"s about assistance, and that"s where it starts to have logical cracks. If i pedal 30 kph, i"m okay, but if i throttle up to 30 kph, i"m bad? It starts to get quite philosophical from here. One might think that the speed/mass is the danger. It appears it is not, it"s the assistance, that lawmaker thinks is the danger. Same speed/mass unassisted is safe but when assisted, is no good..oh well. Well, e-bike weighs some 8% more with a rider..won"t fly either. That would say that obese bicyclists are as dangerous as e-bikers. Here we start to slowly discover that the whole logic behind the the law is full of cracks. Speed limits on trails might be one good way to approach this. Speed limit does not care if you are unassisted or not. It puts everyone on a same category, by saying that it"s the speed/mass that is dangerous. That is logical, that"s something wide public will understand. Talking about anything else than road/lane-based speed limit is just a logical dead end on a long run. Total ban of all E is another thing but i don"t think that"s the direction of the future.
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