Denver commuter e-bike

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
swbluto   100 GW

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Re: Seattle commuter e-bike: 9C 2806, 48V 12Ah Li, 35A Infin

Post by swbluto » Aug 18 2013 5:10pm

Kingfish wrote:They is different: From this link
Both accept a 15mm shaft, and a 35mm hole, but one is 11mm wide and the other 9mm.
Tread carefully :|

BTW - which one did you order?
~KF
We must have different versions of the 9c wheels. Mine is over 4 years older, and it's 280x 20". (Don't know what the 'x' is, I wasn't the first owner and couldn't find any info about it on the wheel)

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Re: Seattle commuter e-bike: 9C 2806, 48V 12Ah Li, 35A Infin

Post by Kingfish » Aug 18 2013 9:15pm

Ahh, well then I'd just look at the part number then. You know better than I do with it in hand :)

Onward though the fog. KF
* My 2WD Garden Wall
* Kinaye MotorSports
* Primary ride: 2WD Disc 9C 2806-equiv / Dual Lyen 12FET / 20S7P LiPo.
* Epics: Going to California: 2011 8)
* 50-mph, 101, 10k-Club. 12,527 miles-to-date, 7037 as 2WD.

It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed.
The hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.

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Re: Seattle commuter e-bike: 9C 2806, 48V 12Ah Li, 35A Infin

Post by swbluto » Aug 18 2013 9:21pm

Don't know if the information is encoded in the part # as I couldn't decipher anything meaningful, besides the power and voltage. Maybe someone else can read it...

Part number: "JZ36V-500W091210015"

I do know, however, that at 24volts (Exactly), the no-load speed is somewhere around 15.1 mph. I'm sure some calculations or simulations could be used to deduce the winding count.

Edit: Did the ebikes.ca simulator simulations. Appears it's a 2806.
Last edited by swbluto on Aug 19 2013 12:51am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Seattle commuter e-bike: 9C 2806, 48V 12Ah Li, 35A Infin

Post by Kingfish » Aug 19 2013 12:49am

I think that number has to do with the hub motor.

I was referring to the bearing p/n. It's imprinted on the side. :wink:

<yawn> KF
* My 2WD Garden Wall
* Kinaye MotorSports
* Primary ride: 2WD Disc 9C 2806-equiv / Dual Lyen 12FET / 20S7P LiPo.
* Epics: Going to California: 2011 8)
* 50-mph, 101, 10k-Club. 12,527 miles-to-date, 7037 as 2WD.

It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed.
The hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.

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Re: Seattle commuter e-bike: 9C 2806, 48V 12Ah Li, 35A Infin

Post by swbluto » Aug 19 2013 12:54am

Typical computer-esque ToM deficits and similar human semantic ambiguity resolution capabilities. :roll:

Or, wait... I already mentioned the part numbers...

Here it is: "6202-rsc2p6" and "6202-rz" (There are no other markings on the bearings)

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Re: Seattle commuter e-bike: 9C 2806, 48V 12Ah Li, 35A Infin

Post by Toshi » Aug 26 2013 11:26pm

Before shots:

Image

Image

Image
My apologies for the out of focus iPhone shot

Image

Things already were looking better after attacking these parts with a wire brush and some CLR this evening, and now they're percolating with a thin coat of phosphoric acid overnight.

The challenge will be in pressing in the bearings anew (going to use dnmun's tips), reassembling the thing (I didn't disconnect the phase wires, at least), and getting it to run again. If I get it to that point I'm going to strongly look into adding a suspension fork…

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Re: Seattle commuter e-bike: 9C 2806, 48V 12Ah Li, 35A Infin

Post by Toshi » Aug 27 2013 4:21pm

swbluto wrote:
Kingfish wrote:They is different: From this link
Both accept a 15mm shaft, and a 35mm hole, but one is 11mm wide and the other 9mm.
Tread carefully :|

BTW - which one did you order?
~KF
We must have different versions of the 9c wheels. Mine is over 4 years older, and it's 280x 20". (Don't know what the 'x' is, I wasn't the first owner and couldn't find any info about it on the wheel)
My bought-in-early-2011-from-ebikes.ca 2806, originally laced up to a 26" rim, is verified to have identical "FX 6202-RZ" bearings on both sides, fwiw.

No disc provision on my hub, though--maybe that's the difference.
Last edited by Toshi on Aug 27 2013 9:57pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Seattle commuter e-bike: 9C 2806, 48V 12Ah Li, 35A Infin

Post by Toshi » Aug 27 2013 4:31pm

Toshi wrote:Things already were looking better after attacking these parts with a wire brush and some CLR this evening, and now they're percolating with a thin coat of phosphoric acid overnight.
Today's update:

Image
Post-phosphoric acid, pre-rigorous wire brush scrubbing

Image
Post-scrubbing

Image
State of the magnet world

Image
Overview

I popped out both bearings (using the gear puller and a large flathead + hammer as a pseudo-punch, respectively) and verified their sizes. Although I've now committed myself to removing the phase and Hall sensor connectors in order to replace the wire-side bearing, I think I'll just rewire them with crimp connectors instead of mini-USB… unless the peanut gallery has strong opinions on the matter.

Now the parts are sitting outside for another day or two with a fresh, additional coat of phosphoric acid on them. Rather than hitting up McMaster I'm going to see if McGuire Bearing in town has an appropriate bearing for me:

http://www.mcguirebearing.com/

(Update: they do. $4 and change for the sealed variety, so even cheaper than McMaster in addition to being local.)

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Re: Seattle commuter e-bike: 9C 2806, 48V 10Ah LiM, 35A Infi

Post by Kingfish » Aug 28 2013 2:13pm

Looking good. Keep applying the Phosphoric acid until all the rust is gone before you varnish it. :)

Not much you can do on your own with the inside hub covers except maybe wire brush it.

Hope your bearings are good quality; don't go budget. I've been happy with my quality. Would have gone ceramic if it was available & inexpensive.

Best, KF
* My 2WD Garden Wall
* Kinaye MotorSports
* Primary ride: 2WD Disc 9C 2806-equiv / Dual Lyen 12FET / 20S7P LiPo.
* Epics: Going to California: 2011 8)
* 50-mph, 101, 10k-Club. 12,527 miles-to-date, 7037 as 2WD.

It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed.
The hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.

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Re: Seattle commuter e-bike: 9C 2806, 48V 10Ah LiM, 35A Infi

Post by Toshi » Aug 31 2013 5:51pm

After a few more cycles of phosphoric acid + buffing + rotary wire brush-head thing the rotor is looking pretty snazzy:

Image

The magnets on the stator still look like crap, in part because of the fine iron dust that's attracted to it. I may hit it up with a lint remover right before reassembly.

Image

New bearings in the side covers, and over 100% more holes! (tiny ones, albeit)

Image

Small and large speedholes. I'm not sure if the small ones are peripheral enough to really serve as drains. The large ones are meant to vent steam after water inevitably makes its way in there and is cooked by the hot internal bits.

Image

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Re: Seattle commuter e-bike: 9C 2806, 48V 10Ah LiM, 35A Infi

Post by dnmun » Aug 31 2013 6:04pm

i use McGuire bearings company here too. they even have impossible to find V belts along with stuff like the bearing retainer but if you got a bearing, they can replace it on the spot. great place imo. may only be just Cascadia though.

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Re: Seattle commuter e-bike: 9C 2806, 48V 10Ah LiM, 35A Infi

Post by Toshi » Sep 04 2013 11:33pm

All parts now have a sloppy coating of red insulating varnish on them, so I reassembled the beast, including reconnecting the 5 phase wires and 3 power wires once the covers were back on… and it turns under electric power! Praise be to the FSM.

Still have quite some work to do: brakes are all sorts of off since I flipped the axle (intentionally), and there's a wobble that makes me think the bearings haven't completely seated on the axle. I'll bust out the hammer and pound on it a bit tomorrow, because why not?

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Re: Seattle commuter e-bike: 9C 2806, 48V 10Ah LiM, 35A Infi

Post by Kingfish » Sep 05 2013 3:49am

That magnet dust was a bugger to remove. I tried all sorts of tricks, but the best was just trying to organize it to where I could grab it with tweezers and fingertips. The crusty aluminum covers were bead-blasted clean at a local mechanic; he did my pair for $50 cash. I can't think of anything else off the top of my head that would work to remove the scale - except perhaps hot caustic.

Happy for your progress! KF
* My 2WD Garden Wall
* Kinaye MotorSports
* Primary ride: 2WD Disc 9C 2806-equiv / Dual Lyen 12FET / 20S7P LiPo.
* Epics: Going to California: 2011 8)
* 50-mph, 101, 10k-Club. 12,527 miles-to-date, 7037 as 2WD.

It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed.
The hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.

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Re: Seattle commuter e-bike: 9C 2806, 48V 10Ah LiM, 35A Infi

Post by Toshi » Sep 09 2013 10:46pm

The e-bike is officially revived now, as it took me to and from work without issues. To be precise, it took me about half the distance each way, with the balance made up by a diesel catamaran water taxi (because Seattle, duh) and a diesel-electric hybrid bus (because big hill, trek across industrial wasteland, and long day).

It felt as strong as ever and I pedaled along in my usual gears on usual stretches of road. I had my usual set of antagonistic encounters with drivers, too, but that's not the bike's fault but rather a shortcoming of my route. My only complaints are that the seat post I swapped in can't hold a given angle for the life of it, and that the chain tensioner I added makes a racket of its own. (The chain tension never has been good since I went from 36-18t to 48-16t gearing, iirc. Stupid not quite horizontal forward facing dropouts without screw tensioners...)

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Re: Seattle commuter e-bike: 9C 2806, 48V 10Ah LiM, 35A Infi

Post by Toshi » Sep 28 2013 11:23pm

1) Evidence suggesting my dual sport-in-emergency plan is perhaps not the best:

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/09/27/moto ... #continued

2) I used 9.8 of 10 theoretical Ah on my LiMn pack on Friday's 10.8ish mile commute home. A solid 2 Ah were burnt just for the last long 8% grade. Pack was still showing 46V at rest when I pulled into the garage but was sagging under load. It was a perfect storm of sorts: brisk headwind, tired legs (called in sick the day before, in fact), slightly under inflated tires, and a hillier than usual route chosen to minimize traffic, not elevation change.

I hate loading the bike on the bus and then dealing with the cramped bus interior, but this was a sobering experience. Prior full trips home without bus or bike legs used about 8.5 to 9 Ah, for reference.

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Toshi   10 kW

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Re: Seattle commuter e-bike: 9C 2806, 48V 10Ah LiM, 35A Infi

Post by Toshi » Dec 26 2013 11:09pm

Howdy all. Been a few months since I checked in here. I still don't have a job lined up for next year yet, but it's looking quite likely that I'll be in Portland, Denver, or possibly Medford/Ashland, as I have interviewed or will interview imminently in all of these places. In two out of those three locations I think I'll be continuing to drive an electric car for the foreseeable future!

Image

Portland - no EV. I'd revert to my prior dirty-hippie state and go carless. There are plenty of Zipcars where I'd want to be, and I could commute via streetcar and then aerial tram! That'd be sweet, and a transit pass is a hell of a lot cheaper than even a frugal EV with tax credits. Looking into it a bit further, actually, my hospital ID would get me free streetcar rides! and the tram is always free. A totally free commute wins, hands down.

Denver - assuming our current LEAF did ok the first winter shod with snow tires, I'd probably buy a new optioned-up SV when our current SL's lease ends in August 2015. Buying new anew would be only a little more expensive than buying used, because there is not only the Federal tax credit, which was factored into my current lease, but also an additional up-to-$6k (!) Colorado state tax credit as well.

Medford/Ashland - If we end up here, I'd live in Ashland and would be working in Medford on most days. I'd also have two years in town before I found out whether I was making partner or would be searching for a new job again. Therefore I'd opt for a two year lease, probably a Spark EV or a LEAF SV. (I'd go cheap for the S since the lack of the heat pump heater wouldn't matter much in this climate, but the lack of cruise control on the S would drive me insane.)

8)

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Re: Seattle commuter e-bike: 9C 2806, 48V 10Ah LiM, 35A Infi

Post by The Stig » Dec 28 2013 1:52pm

I like the sounds of the Spark EV, I think I remember it having good power!

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Re: Seattle commuter e-bike: 9C 2806, 48V 10Ah LiM, 35A Infi

Post by Toshi » May 07 2014 3:08pm

Toshi wrote:Howdy all. Been a few months since I checked in here. I still don't have a job lined up for next year yet, but it's looking quite likely that I'll be in Portland, Denver, or possibly Medford/Ashland, as I have interviewed or will interview imminently in all of these places. In two out of those three locations I think I'll be continuing to drive an electric car for the foreseeable future!

Denver - assuming our current LEAF did ok the first winter shod with snow tires, I'd probably buy a new optioned-up SV when our current SL's lease ends in August 2015. Buying new anew would be only a little more expensive than buying used, because there is not only the Federal tax credit, which was factored into my current lease, but also an additional up-to-$6k (!) Colorado state tax credit as well.
So it turns out that I signed with the Denver outfit. It also turns out that I bought myself a used Toyota Land Cruiser a few months ago, with the LEAF primarily driven by my wife for baby-carting duties. I figure the Land Cruiser will make for a great skiing and biking vehicle, and I hope to do a lot of the same once out in Colorado.

8)

The question then becomes what to replace the LEAF with, once said LEAF's lease is up in August 2015. One factor to keep in mind is Colorado (and Wyoming's) fabulously dirty electrical power:

Image

The exact figure was 33 MPGghg for a LEAF-sized vehicle, iirc. Not good. Once we build or buy a house in Denver after renting for a year then we'll outfit it with solar panels so will address that concern.

I'm thinking that a Mercedes-Benz B-Class Electric Drive might make for a good LEAF successor.

Image

Highlights:
- 28 kWh (effective; possibly larger in absolute terms given all this talk about Range Plus charging options) Tesla battery and 174 hp from a Tesla motor
- NATIONWIDE DEALER SUPPORT now, and nationwide sales come "early 2015"
- about 7" more rear legroom than our LEAF, from what I can gather

It could work.

Meanwhile, I've dusted off the electric bike and have been commuting on it again when possible, in an effort to maintain what little fitness I possess. It's been working ok--still is a crappy electric motorcycle but a decent electric bicycle. The hills here in Seattle really push it to its limits, especially Yesler Way heading up to Harborview, for those who know the area. Oof.

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Re: Seattle commuter e-bike: 9C 2806, 48V 10Ah LiM, 35A Infi

Post by Toshi » May 08 2014 11:45pm

Toshi wrote:Meanwhile, I've dusted off the electric bike and have been commuting on it again when possible, in an effort to maintain what little fitness I possess. It's been working ok--still is a crappy electric motorcycle but a decent electric bicycle. The hills here in Seattle really push it to its limits, especially Yesler Way heading up to Harborview, for those who know the area. Oof.
Not a day later my fickle self decided to dismantle the electric bike and part it out on eBay. Blame a rainy commute and another day of dealing with the grade up Yesler Way. (Plus, in Denver my commute for at least the first year will be 2.3 miles on flat ground! No electricity needed there.)

Therefore, I listed all of what I consider saleable stuff on eBay. 1 cent starting bids for all of these auctions with no reserve price and reasonable shipping. This shows that I'm serious!

eZee/ebikes.ca 48V 10Ah LiMn battery plus associated charger: http://www.ebay.com/itm/111349132221?ss ... 1558.l2649

Infineon/ebikes.ca 24-48V 35A electric bicycle motor controller: http://www.ebay.com/itm/111349135532?ss ... 1558.l2649

ebikes.ca/Grin Cyclery CycleAnalyst 2.0 computer/wizard-brain: http://www.ebay.com/itm/111349138052?ss ... 1558.l2649

Custom steel 26" rigid fork with torque arm, as made by RM's own buildyourown: http://www.ebay.com/itm/111349140010?ss ... 1558.l2649

Shimano Nexus 7 internally geared rear hub and associated shifter, built up in a wheel with an Alex DC19 rim: http://www.ebay.com/itm/111349151233?ss ... 1558.l2649

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Toshi   10 kW

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Re: Seattle commuter e-bike: 9C 2806, 48V 10Ah LiM, 35A Infi

Post by Toshi » Dec 26 2014 2:15pm

Toshi wrote:So it turns out that I signed with the Denver outfit. It also turns out that I bought myself a used Toyota Land Cruiser a few months ago, with the LEAF primarily driven by my wife for baby-carting duties. I figure the Land Cruiser will make for a great skiing and biking vehicle, and I hope to do a lot of the same once out in Colorado.

The question then becomes what to replace the LEAF with, once said LEAF's lease is up in August 2015. One factor to keep in mind is Colorado (and Wyoming's) fabulously dirty electrical power: The exact figure was 33 MPGghg for a LEAF-sized vehicle, iirc. Not good. Once we build or buy a house in Denver after renting for a year then we'll outfit it with solar panels so will address that concern.
Updates: I've worked 6 months in Denver now. I like the job and the location. I'm not planning on skiing this winter as all extra money is going towards earnest money and a down payment for a house. We are planning on building a net zero energy house that will probably not be done until late spring 2016, so there will be another year of renting involved (2 years in total).

My Land Cruiser is going strong, but whenever my schedule allows for it I have been pedal-commuting on my 29er, which is actually well suited for the route given that there's a good dirt/gravel section of it. I have some guilt about it, but mainly regarding its price, and am just wrapping my head around that I can actually justify it after all these years spent living as cheaply as possible.

I have changed my thoughts on what to replace the leased LEAF with, however. I'm leaning towards buying a used RAV4 EV (from California, clearly) on Carmax and electing for their 3rd party MaxCare extended warranty as part of a potentially futile hedge against it breaking down in Colorado. I drove a gas RAV4 of the same generation as the EV and thought it was a good size for my wife plus soon to be two kids, and I like the Tesla underbits, even if the support is lacking.
Last edited by Toshi on Dec 29 2014 11:03am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Seattle commuter e-bike: 9C 2806, 48V 10Ah LiM, 35A Infi

Post by The Stig » Dec 27 2014 10:31am

Ive heard the RAV4 ev has good power

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Re: Seattle commuter e-bike: 9C 2806, 48V 10Ah LiM, 35A Infi

Post by Toshi » Feb 11 2015 1:18pm

I jumped the gun a bit on the RAV4 EV after finding a properly priced blue one on CarMax. It'll be in my paws, or my wife's, rather, by next week. (We will have a few months of overlap with the RAV4 EV, LEAF, and Land Cruiser all in our stable. The latter will be demoted to parking on the street as the others must plug in in our two car garage.)

I'm also thinking of building another electric bike when we move a bit further away from work in just over a year, per our plan. This new commute will be 6.5 miles with some mild elevation and lots of wind and time on dirt and gravel to slow one down. I'd like to use electricity to make my time on the bike around 20 minutes, for a 30 minute point to point commute including locking up, changing clothes, etc.

I have two different ideas for this:

1) Surly Ogre frame and fork replete with front and rear racks along with full fenders. Use drivetrain and wheelset from my 29er mountain bike. Mount up a Bafang 750W mid drive and a frame mounted battery pack. This would be a 1 x 10 setup with a rear dérailleur.

Advantages would be reuse of existing parts, mid drive efficiency, and reasonable cost. I think I could do the whole thing for $1750 or so including the frame set. Disadvantage would be no torque sensing and clunky requirement to hit the e-brake to kill assist before shifting. I also would be stuck with clunky external battery pack lighting solutions.

2) REI/Novara Gotham bike as new base (belt drive, NuVinci hub, racks and fenders already in place). I'd add a geared eZee front hub motor, v3 CA, and a torque sensing crank setup from ebikes.ca. Probably would use a frame pack similarly.

Advantages would be silent belt drive, torque sensing ease of use, shifting while stopped or on the go independent of electric bits, and the ability to run ebikes.ca's snazzy DC-DC converter and LEDs off the main pack. Disadvantages would be lower efficiency as it's not going through the geared multi speed drivetrain, buzz from the geared motor, longer cable runs, and more cost. The bike itself is $1200 or so and ebikes.ca isn't cheap. I'd wager $2500 complete.

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Re: Seattle commuter e-bike: 9C 2806, 48V 10Ah LiM, 35A Infi

Post by Toshi » Feb 11 2015 1:20pm

Ogre: http://surlybikes.com/bikes/ogre

Image

Gotham: http://www.rei.com/product/857590/novar ... -bike-2015

Image

The latter lists for $1400 but REI has periodic sales.

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Re: Seattle commuter e-bike: 9C 2806, 48V 10Ah LiM, 35A Infi

Post by Toshi » Feb 11 2015 3:51pm

Toshi wrote:1) Surly Ogre frame and fork replete with front and rear racks along with full fenders. Use drivetrain and wheelset from my 29er mountain bike. Mount up a Bafang 750W mid drive and a frame mounted battery pack. This would be a 1 x 10 setup with a rear dérailleur.

Advantages would be reuse of existing parts, mid drive efficiency, and reasonable cost. I think I could do the whole thing for $1750 or so including the frame set. Disadvantage would be no torque sensing and clunky requirement to hit the e-brake to kill assist before shifting. I also would be stuck with clunky external battery pack lighting solutions.
Pricing:

- Surly Ogre frame and fork: $575 at my LBS
- Bafang 750W mid drive kit with frame battery: $899
- e-brake switch to glue onto my hydraulic discs' levers: $13

That's just under $1,500 in parts. Add in extra stuff I'd need (new cable housing) and shipping and my $1,750 guess is pretty close to spot on.

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Re: Seattle commuter e-bike: 9C 2806, 48V 10Ah LiM, 35A Infi

Post by Toshi » Feb 11 2015 4:51pm

Toshi wrote:2) REI/Novara Gotham bike as new base (belt drive, NuVinci hub, racks and fenders already in place). I'd add a geared eZee front hub motor, v3 CA, and a torque sensing crank setup from ebikes.ca. Probably would use a frame pack similarly.

Advantages would be silent belt drive, torque sensing ease of use, shifting while stopped or on the go independent of electric bits, and the ability to run ebikes.ca's snazzy DC-DC converter and LEDs off the main pack. Disadvantages would be lower efficiency as it's not going through the geared multi speed drivetrain, buzz from the geared motor, longer cable runs, and more cost. The bike itself is $1200 or so and ebikes.ca isn't cheap. I'd wager $2500 complete.
Pricing (cheap em3ev build with no torque sensing/PAS):

- Novara Gotham: assuming I can get a 15% deal on it, it'd be $1190
- 48V pack with 20R cells capable of 25A discharge: $419
- 10 turn winding geared Mac hub motor: $270 <-- I'd build it up as a wheel myself, so figure an extra $40 for spokes and nipples to be generous
- Infineon controller with upgrades: $110
- CA: $130
- misc parts such as throttle, torque arm, etc: figure $40 more

This cheap build would be about $2100, so perhaps $2300 shipped? plus my time to build up the wheel. The PAS option from ebikes.ca would add $240 (ISIS torque sensing bottom bracket) and $25 (net cost increase for CA v3). That's actually not terrible. I'd have to make sure connectors, etc. between the two vendors were matching but that's not that tough. Paying $280 extra for a ebikes.ca wheel build, an eZee vs. Mac motor, a cheap rim, and a nice albeit redundant tire doesn't seem like a good deal.

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