First Post, First Bike Build, Questions

Let me just say that this is an impressive board with a lot of smart creative members, I stumbled across it looking for info about Crystalyte stuff and needless to say I have been spending many late nights reading through a lot of posts (my wife hates it). I think I have a pretty good game plan so I'll lay it out and ask for some feedback from you guys. It's a bit of a long read but I'm trying to be as descriptive as possible.

Thanks in advance,
Glen
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First is what I need/want in a bike without spending a fortune and having the ability to upgrade later to better batteries when the prices come down or I have more money;

- 15 mile range minimum at sustained not average speed of 20-25mph and being able to get up light hills for commuting, one way is about 12mi, 10mi are smooth bike paths, I will pedal some to save juice from stops and such, and I can charge at work (approx weight with me on it would be 305lbs)

- 2-5 mile range balls out with a top speed of 30-35mph for having fun on the weekends

- 2-5 mile range towing a 20 lbs trailer with 60 lbs worth of kids at 10mph maybe 15mph but that's pushing the safety limit with kids in tow (total bike with everything/everyone would probably be approx. 385lbs
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Second is what I have to start with;

a. 35 lbs. Bianchi Rigid that has 26" rims with street slicks, fenders, a rear rack and panniers
b. 52 lbs. of SLA out of an APC UPS model RBC11 they're 4 batteries at 12.5lbs each- 12v and 18ah, they are built in 2 battery series already so I would connect the 2 24v 18ah packs together in series to make it a 48v 18ah pack (free and I have 8 total to make 2 - 48 volt packs) I can't find the C Rating anywhere but since they're designed for a UPS I would imagine that it would be pretty high.
c. 195lbs of Me with clothes and loaded pockets
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Third is this is what I was thinking of doing using the info I've gathered from many of the posts here;

1. Rear Crystalyte Phoenix 5304 Cruiser Black from Electric Rider (more torque than racer for towing kids plus the extra weight of the SLA's)
2. 36-72V 48A Start Immediate Digital Controller (IRFB4110 Mosfets) from ebikes.ca (for future battery upgrades)
3. put the 4 SLA's in Series for 48v 18ah pack (thats about all the weight I can handle in the panniers)
4. one of the Cycle Analyst's from ebikes.ca not sure which one (Recommendations Please)
5. Crystalyte Twist Throttle
6. Necessary wiring kit, 2 30amp fuse holders, additional Andersons to wire everything up and 2 spools of 10g wire black and red
7. I've already ordered black styrene to make some cheap disc wheel covers to make it more stealth
8. Put batteries and controller in panniers with minimal wiring exposed to make it more stealth
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Not sure if this can be done with the batteries I have but from what I've read it seems like it should work, the weights I'll be dealing with are approximately;

bike - 35lbs
hub motor - 25lbs
SLA's - 50lbs
me - 195lbs
trailer - 20lbs
kids - 60lbs

Built bike - 110lbs
Built bike with me on it for commuting - 305lbs
Built bike with me on it for fun with the kids and trailer - 385lbs

With the above weights would I need to get the Crystalyte Phoenix 5305 Brute or would that be overkill.
or could I get buy with getting the Crystalyte Phoenix 5303 Racer (probably not enough torque)
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I'm still going through posts on Freewheels, Kickstands, and Chargers

Should I get the 5 or 7 speed freewheel? I have older XTR components, if I can't adjust the derailer for the lack of 1 or 3 gears I'll have to replace with something else.

And

Is there a good heavy duty kickstand that I can use for all this weight? Possibly a center stand to help with supporting the bike if I ever have to remove the rear wheel.

Also

SLA Charger that is not to expensive so I can buy 2 - one for home and one for work that can charge a 48 volt pack with at least 5 amps so charge time will be at or less than 4 hours also can I charge the pack in 48 volt series

With the SLA's do I need to worry about balancing the cells and breaking the pack apart to charge each battery separately? I've gathered that they balance themselves out pretty well and don't need the extra attention.

Can I use a car charger and charge the 4 12v batteries in parallel I think this would take longer because it only puts out 6 amps and it would be like charging a 12v 72ah battery.

SLA's from what I understand can't be quick charged, the question is will they take enough of a charge in 4-6 hours to be near 100%, if not I guess I would need to charge for 8 hours at least which shouldn't be a problem considering I'm usually in the office for at least 9 hours. Can I get a full charge on them in that amount of time and if so what configuration of charger/chargers and voltages. All this being said I'd rather not have to rewire the pack every time I want to charge it.

Would it be more cost effective and better on the Batteries if I split the packs and charged with 2 chargers at 24v.
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Thanks again for spending the time to read this and offer any advice or comments.

Glen

I could only squeeze a 5sp freewheel on my 5304. Make sure you use steel torque arms/plates and secure them well to the frame stock dropouts are weak and could break. The torque from my 5304 was crazy and it was fast you should get about 48km/h topspeed at 48v which is pretty decent I lost only about 10km/h going up steep hills. I don't think you need a brute but thats up to you when you up the amperage draw the 5304 is torque crazy I cannot imagine a 5305 at a high amperage draw. I just recomend spreading all the weight out and run your wires with the gear/brake cables they blend right in and don't rush it. I rushed mine and ended up twisting the wires off the motor. It spun out from torque and wrenches and hoseclamps did little to stop the 150nm of torque. You have the right list of components and will be happy with the crystalyte.

First of all, welcome! It's always good to see new faces!

Next, kudos on doing your homework. Your plan for the most part is solid. I'll answer any and every question I can. :wink:

If you've been poking around here a bit, I'm sure you've seen the kreuzotter calculator and the ebikes.ca simulator. If not, here they are:
http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm
http://ebikes.ca/simulator/

Looks like Kreuzotter is down at the moment. Here's hoping they're back soon.

For what you're asking, you can get by fine with a 400-series motor. They're lighter, cheaper, and more efficient than the x5 motors. The only problem is that a 400 won't do the trick when you get the itch for more power. An x5 will happily oblige and eat up all the power you can throw at it. 8)

Your UPS batteries will do the trick fine. They won't have a problem with your commute, nor with a few minutes of weekend craziness. My only concern is how long they'll last. Generally UPS-type applications don't use deep-cycle batteries, since in their normal life you don't drain that battery all that often. Since they're gutted from a UPS, they aren't new. Depending on how heavily they've been (ab)used, their remaining life might not be very long. That said, being recycled, you sure can't beat the price! Use them until they die, and then get some lithium, I'd say.

As for the C rating, SLAs perform best when kept under 1C. When you abuse them on the weekends, expect to get ~60% of their rated capacity at best. For your commute, you can expect better performance at a stately 25mph, but you'll have more than enough capacity anyway.

Why are you buying the motor from ElectricRider? Unless you want the motor black, or unless ebikes.ca will be out of stock for a while, it'll be a bit easier to get if from ebikes.ca. As far as I know (someone might correct me) ElectricRider's motors' phase wires have a trailer 3-prong connector, which you'd have to cut off and replace with Andersons. Also, you'll have to get a rim and spokes and have them, or a LBS, or yourself lace and true the motor into the wheel.

You picked the right controller. Those units are the best out there at the moment, short of Kelly controllers.

If you get the controller from ebikes.ca, you'll want the direct plug-in CycleAnalyst. If you use a controller from another source, you'll want the stand-alone model.

You'll want to be careful with the panniers. With 50lbs of weight over the rear wheel, and with the motor torque at the rear wheel, and with the power of a 5304 at 50a, you might have wheelie problems. It's a good problem to have, but it can be darn frustrating when you're at a stoplight and the bike flips you off in front of some cute undergrad girls. Not that I've done that...more than three times...

The 5304 will be more than torquey enough for your towing, as would the 5303. The torque differences between the models aren't too terribly large, though they are significant. More important is the speed at which the motor will have its peak power output. In most cases, the 5304 is the best compromise between torque and top speed, however it really shines at 72v (and beyond); at 48v it'll top out 30mph, give or take one or two mph. A 5303 will do more like 35-37mph at 48v. You'll want to consider what speeds you'll want for the weekend fun, along with what voltage you'll want to run in the future. You can't go wrong with either one; try to choose the motor winding that will be more right for you.

As for the freewheel, that'll depend on your frame. I've fit a 7-speed on my 5303 without any problems in two different frames, but every one is different.

As for SLA charging practices, I can't help you much there. Although I can say this:

Can I use a car charger and charge the 4 12v batteries in parallel I think this would take longer because it only puts out 6 amps and it would be like charging a 12v 72ah battery.

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Yup, you're spot on.

For the rest, someone more knowledgeable with SLAs will be able to help.

So, any other questions?

huskydave said:

I could only squeeze a 5sp freewheel on my 5304.

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Thanks for the info
how wide is your frame?
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lazarus2405 said:

First of all, welcome! It's always good to see new faces!
Next, kudos on doing your homework. Your plan for the most part is solid. I'll answer any and every question I can. :wink:

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Thanks for the welcoming, and thanks for taking the time to answer.

lazarus2405 said:

The only problem is that a 400 won't do the trick when you get the itch for more power.

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That's right! Everything I've been reading and knowing who I am the 400 won't fill the want especially down the road with more/better batteries

lazarus2405 said:

Since they're gutted from a UPS, they aren't new.

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Not true they are new, never used, only they have been on a shelf for a while but they still have between 12.3 and 12.5 volts on them, I'll be charging them over the next few days separated with a car charger until I figure out what charger is going to work for me with the least trouble/cost.

lazarus2405 said:

Why are you buying the motor from ElectricRider? Unless you want the motor black, or unless ebikes.ca will be out of stock for a while,
Also, you'll have to get a rim and spokes and have them, or a LBS, or yourself lace and true the motor into the wheel.

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True and True, I have to place a call tomorrow to find out if they will be stocking more soon, although if what you say is true about the connector I'll probably order from ebikes.ca and hit it with some black primer. My styrene came in yesterday and I started making some wheel covers, they're coming along.

lazarus2405 said:

As for the freewheel, that'll depend on your frame. I've fit a 7-speed on my 5303 without any problems in two different frames, but every one is different.

Click to expand...

How wide is your frame? drop to drop, I'm trying to get a good idea so I can either spread my frame or get a smaller freewheel.

lazarus2405 said:

So, any other questions?

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Kickstand - what do you use? I've seen 4 kinds side stand right behind the crank, side stand behind the crank with parallel legs, sidestand off rear axle, and a center stand like what's on a moped right behind the crank. Considering this bike when done is going to be pretty heavy I want to make sure it won't fall over when parked.

Torque arms - The frame is a Bianchi Mountain Bike chrome moly I think, the rear drops magnet test fine so I'm not sure if I need to really worry about them as long as the hub is tight with lockwashers and locktite on the threads, although if the estimates are right with the amount of torque these motors produce I'd rather not take the chance of possibly destroying the motor and controller for about $800. I guess I'll have to fabricate something to keep my mind at ease, I like the clamp style that others have made but that will be more research to find a machine shop near me and design to make one that works for my bike.

Thanks again for the info,

Glen

How wide is your frame? drop to drop

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135mm, between the insides. I have to pry the drops just a *tiny* bit, which makes the motor sit snugly centered.

Kickstand - what do you use?

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I don't, yet. My frame doesn't have a convenient place to mount one. I'd suggest a sturdy moped-style one, with a foot on each side of the bike. Barring that, place a kickstand as close to the bike's center of gravity as possible. For you, that means near the rear axle.

As for the torque arm, the problem is that every case is different. With the chrome moly frame, I think you'll be fine, as long as the dropouts are reasonable thick. Make sure you file off any lawyer lips on the inside so the axle shoulder can seat flush with the dropout, and tighten the axle nuts as tight as you possibly can without stripping threads. It is not a bad idea to double nut it. It's the friction on the sides of the dropouts that relieves the flats of the dropouts of most of the load, so you don't want that nut loosening, at all.

Of course, it is definitely safer to use some sort of torque arm Even a crescent wrench and a hose clamp is better than nothing.

If your dropouts fail, you aren't out $800. Even in the worst conditions, the outlook would not be so glum. You will need to replace some motor wiring and perhaps the Hall effect sensors, for about $15 parts and a few tedious hours in your motor. The controller will be anywhere from completely unaffected to totally fried. The 4110-based clyte controllers are painfully expensive, but we *may* have a controller coming that would perform just as well but cost half as much. Those plans are very tentative and at least a couple months off, but it is something to keep in mind.

lazarus2405 said:

135mm, between the insides. I have to pry the drops just a *tiny* bit, which makes the motor sit snugly centered.

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Cool thanks for that, that's what I have (135mm) so it looks like I'm getting a 7 speed. The only thing with that is trying to get my XTR Rear to match 7 instead of 8. I want to say that it can be done because I think I had a 7 on it a long time ago when a 8 fell into my lap of better quality, but I'm not sure. I think it would be as easy as readjusting the stop and fine tuning it a bit. What do you think?

lazarus2405 said:

As for the torque arm, the problem is that every case is different. With the chrome moly frame, I think you'll be fine, as long as the dropouts are reasonable thick.

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4-5mm is that thick enough?

lazarus2405 said:

It is not a bad idea to double nut it. It's the friction on the sides of the dropouts that relieves the flats of the dropouts of most of the load, so you don't want that nut loosening, at all.

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Double nutting and loctite on the threads would definitely keep it from loosing up.
Has anyone used those star looking lock washers on the inside and outside of frame so it digs into the frame and axle shoulder on the inside as well as the nut and frame on the outside, I think that it would transfer some load too, referring to your friction thought..

lazarus2405 said:

If your dropouts fail, you aren't out $800. Even in the worst conditions, the outlook would not be so glum. You will need to replace some motor wiring and perhaps the Hall effect sensors, for about $15 parts and a few tedious hours in your motor. The controller will be anywhere from completely unaffected to totally fried.

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Has anyone ever fried a winding? I guess that would be hard to do or unlikely, considering the controller would let go before that could happen.

Has anyone thought up a quick release type of connector so if it does spin the connectors would let go before ripping everything to shreds and frying stuff, probably not feasible the way they are designed.

I'm sure brighter minds than mine have thought about these things already, but wouldn't it make sense to put some type of fuses on the wires coming off the motor or at the controller side so in the event that something like this happens, all you have to do is replace a couple fuses and motor wires rather than possibly the whole controller.
That being said I guess I'm asking too much from C'lyte because if they had an integrated torque arm, and fuses they wouldn't sell as many wiring kits, hall sensors and controllers. Not to mention additional sales of cheap frames after the drops get rounded.

Thanks,

Glen

Welcome to the forum. Looks like you've done your research.

Some things to point out, the threads on the axles are cut, not rolled. In laymen's terms, that means they can't take overtightening the nut, and you need torque arms to make it secure. Locktite is a great idea, but a loose nut isn't the problem. the motors can produce 80 footpounds of torque, and a bike frame dropout wasn't designed to take ANY twisting force.

I'm using a "police style" kickstand. It concets to the rear triangle just ahead of the rear axle and better supports and balanced the weight of a reatr motor and batteries.

Something to consider, a 40X seiries motor run at 72V would be equil to or greater in power than a 530X at 48V. it would also be more efficent, and need smaller batteries for the same range, making it much lighter.

Drunkskunk said:

Welcome to the forum. Looks like you've done your research.

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Thanks

Drunkskunk said:

you need torque arms to make it secure.

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I will need to design these for my bike. I'm just not sure how thick I'm going to need to go and how much shaft extends beyond the drops.

Drunkskunk said:

Locktite is a great idea, but a loose nut isn't the problem. the motors can produce 80 footpounds of torque, and a bike frame dropout wasn't designed to take ANY twisting force.

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Understood. Torque arms and Locktite, there probably won't be room for double nutting with an arm in place.

Drunkskunk said:

I'm using a "police style" kickstand. It connects to the rear triangle just ahead of the rear axle and better supports and balanced the weight of a rear motor and batteries.

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Link? Manufacturer? Model? Any info you can provide would be great.

Drunkskunk said:

Something to consider, a 40X seiries motor run at 72V would be equal to or greater in power than a 530X at 48V. it would also be more efficient, and need smaller batteries for the same range, making it much lighter.

Click to expand...

I've got 8 SLA's for free, so I'm going to stick with 4 - 12V 18ah in series for a 48V pack for now.
I'll be alternating usage on the packs so I can get a little more time out of both packs, I'm hoping a year or so, maybe I'm being optimistic.
As far as efficiency, I'm willing to sacrifice some as well as weight for future upgrades (primarily batteries and depending on how much voltage a higher end controller), I just don't want to buy a hub motor for weight reasons when my bike is going to be a porker anyway due to the SLA's, besides 12lbs difference on a hub is probably not going to be very noticeable considering the weight of everything else. Not to mention my need for speed on the weekends messing around, and the fact that I will be left wanting more, as I out grow it, this way it saves me the cost of buying a second motor.

If not for these batteries I probably wouldn't be here on this site trying to figure out what to do with them and what I can replace them with later when more money is available. I think the wife will be tickled pink when I'm saving $75-$200 a month in gas, tolls, and other car related expenses, that's a credit card payment and some groceries (little does she know how much the buy in is, new hobbies are expensive, especially this one, but I'm doing it on a budget because I don't need batteries (yet that is)). Not to mention the health benefit of riding the bike on the way home because I'll probably be doing a lot more work homeward bound, considering it doesn't matter if I'm dripping with sweat when I get there.

The reasons for me building a bike is;
a. to make use of these batteries
b. use less gas commuting ($4.00/gal is highway robbery, thanks Dubya :x )
c. save $35-$70 in Tolls
d. get to work in the same amount of time if not quicker due to traffic
e. get to work dryer (no sweat)
f. the wife won’t let me get another Motorcycle because I almost died 4 years ago due to some nitwit pulling out in front of me (people in cages suck!) so this is a means of having some fun.

On that note you know all those rebate checks that are being sent out are going to go straight into the gas tanks of most people and stimulate the bank accounts of the Oil Conglomerates. :x
I guess I should tell you how I really feel! I guess we’ll make it yet another Banner year for the Oil Companies, Record profits every single year, tells me something. Gouging any one?

Thanks,

Glen

Thoughts on throttles.

I'm partial to the full grip throttle having ridden motorcycles for a long time.
I'm thinking the thumb throttle might make more sense on a bicycle though
If I put this together the way that I was thinking then I can take off the controller (get the extension cables from motor to controller, and mount the controller in one of my panniers) and batteries in a matter of seconds and mess with taking the wheel off in a matter of minutes and then still use this as a normal bike with some wiring and a throttle attached to it.

If I do that I don't think I want to try jumping this thing pedal powered with a full throttle grip on it, I think it makes more sense to have just the thumb in the way and less likely to cause my hands to do something they aren't supposed to do.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Glen

the motors can produce 80 footpounds of torque, and a bike frame dropout wasn't designed to take ANY twisting force.

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I can't agree enough. On aluminum frames, it's a tragedy waiting to happen. On steel/chromemoly in most cases you're fine... depending... Your mileage may vary.

The only thing with that is trying to get my XTR Rear to match 7 instead of 8. I want to say that it can be done because I think I had a 7 on it a long time ago when a 8 fell into my lap of better quality, but I'm not sure. I think it would be as easy as readjusting the stop and fine tuning it a bit. What do you think?

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Well, it's the shifter that needs to be made for the right number of gears, not the derailleur. You can find a shifter at a LBS; just be careful not to get a twist shifter. However, you can fake it. Adjust it the best you can and make do. I'm using a 9speed shifter on the 7spd freewheel, but I spend 90% of the time in the fastest gear.

You won't need any extension cables to be able to fit the controller in the panniers. You can use velcro cable ties to make things secure yet quick to remove. Removing the heavy motor is annoying; I think you'll find you'd rather just leave in and ride a different bike, but you can sure try and see. :wink:

As for the throttle, I prefer a half-twist. With a thumb throttle you'll find your finger gets cramped, and with a half twist you still have half of a normal handlebar. It's also a bit safer than a full twist, since it won't get tweaked if the bike for some reason finds itself lying on its side.


Addendum:

Has anyone ever fried a winding?

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Not on an x5. Never. Nor has anyone fried the magnets. It's been run up to ~7.5kw for tens of minutes without any problems. No one has tried to find the limits of an x5, though, since the controller requirements are just silly. They're more fun to ride than try to destroy.

I believe folks have fried 400s. They can get really hot, but someone who actually owns a 400-series would be a better help there. I believe BiGH has destroyed one or two of them at 72v, but you'd have to ask him exactly what happened.

Yes, a 408 running at 66v from 4 dewalt pack will get hot to the touch if you do some hill climb. I have a massive hill between my house and work and riding up that hill in full throttle will heat it up. Not burning hot. Just uncomfortably hot. Laptop on bare thigh hot, LOL. Even then it's hard to fry your motor before your controller does. To burn a 4 series motor would mean you pack the bike with tons of SLA+you're overweight+climbing massive hill+powerful controller+your brake jam and you're riding with brake applied all the time.

youreaspeedemon said:

The only thing with that is trying to get my XTR Rear to match 7 instead of 8. I want to say that it can be done because I think I had a 7 on it a long time ago when a 8 fell into my lap of better quality, but I'm not sure. I think it would be as easy as readjusting the stop and fine tuning it a bit. What do you think?

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The rear derailleur is speed-agnostic: it doesn't care if you're running 1 speed or 100. The indexing is done at the shifter, and it will not play nicely. 8- and 7-speed cassettes have the same width across the whole set of gears, so the 8-speed setup will have less space between each sprocket and its neighbor.

To make it work you'll need a 7-speed shifter.

With regard to throttles I went with a full twist throttle on my build due to familiarity with the control layout from motorcycles. No problems yet, although I'm only 35 miles into it...

I broke my full twist throttle going over a bump - it over-rotated. Cheap plastic junk is not designed to take any load, unlike a motorbike throttle.

I have also broken the thumb lever off a thumb throttle.

I turned the replacement full twist into a half twist with a hacksaw and a donor grip. Half twist works the best as most of your weight is borne by the fixed portion. 4000k later and it's still fine.
It's also the most comfortable and easiest to use precisely (if you need something other than on/off!).

Yeah and you don't have to constantly apply pressure to the throttle like the full twist. Just grip your hand and the stationary part of the handle hold the throttle in place. Reduce hand fatigues for other uses later LOL. It's safer too when handling bumps and pothole. On my scooter with the full throttle, sometime when i hit the pot holes i would accidentally floor it and loose control.

Shifters----

Don't bar-end shifters nowadays come with a little thingy that you can flip to change from indexed shifting (click-click) to just friction? If so, couldn't a bar-end shifter set in friction mode be used to accomodate 7, 8, or 9 rear sprockets provided the travel limits on the derailer were set properly?

MT