Spokes size

I have been playing with my old and new rim but i got a problem!
The spokes i got from justin just dont fit in the new 24" rim! :|

They are bigger than my previous spokes on my stock 26" X5 and the nipple just dont fit in the hole of the rim!

since when the manufacture decided to change these spokes size to put bigger one??

The other 5303 i ordered have larger spokes too... but the 24" replacement rim just dont accept these spokes..

Any info about that?

Doc

4 minutes per hole with a round file !!! :wink:

12 gauge spokes are a nightmare, but can be made to work !


edit : Does your new rim have eyelets ?

Its alot faster to drill out the eyelets(trust me I've done 4 rims already )Just find the next biggest drill bit to fit through the eyelets and clamp down the rim and use even force on the drill with med to high rpms.The eyelets will still be there but dont worry if some drill out completely.Also when relacing the rim use stainless steel washers on the heads of the spokes to reinforce the hub flanges.I did this and have yet to break any spokes(knock on wood).

Ypedal said:

4 minutes per hole with a round file !!! :wink:

12 gauge spokes are a nightmare, but can be made to work !


edit : Does your new rim have eyelets ?

Click to expand...

Yes, they have. aAnd it seems that the hole size of the eyelets is just a little bit smaller than i would need for the spokes..

About drilling them, i wonder if the angle of the spoke would be easy if the eyeslets are just fitting the nipples at straight angle...the stress will have an effect on a side of the hole an dnot the entire hole circonference... so it will be difficult to give it an angle ?

disndat said:

Its alot faster to drill out the eyelets(trust me I've done 4 rims already )Just find the next biggest drill bit to fit through the eyelets and clamp down the rim and use even force on the drill with med to high rpms.The eyelets will still be there but dont worry if some drill out completely.Also when relacing the rim use stainless steel washers on the heads of the spokes to reinforce the hub flanges.I did this and have yet to break any spokes(knock on wood).

Click to expand...

Thanks for your advice!,

from now i just wonder if it is better to do that or to get new "less nightmare" normal 13 or 14 gauge spokes$

The 12 gauges seems to be very strong and it could be perfect for the monstruous torque of the 5305 at 70A. but. would the rim be able to hold this sppokes size drilled hole without craking?

woud it be better to use smaller spokes?


About the spokes angle and crossing method, i seen many different way to place them... the 16" rim have them straight angle, the 26" spokes are crossed, some are mixed..

for a 24" rim and a X4, what is the best?

Doc

Doc

i have a sun lite rim with the 12 guage from ypedal for 8 months now and the rim eyelets was drilled and it did not seem to affect the rim ...it is after all a double wall rim and i cant see that it would be affected.

the 12 guage are very solid they dont break like the normal spoke i use to have... i had to rêplace a spoke every month before now i never worry about it

I've tried the drill method but the problem is that the eyeltes jam into the drill bit and spin loose into the rim, with the power of the drill you risk creating a problem if it jams at the wrong time lol..

Take a nipple, thread it upside down on a spoke to make life easier, then with a small enough round file work the eyelet all around until the spoke fits..

You can lace that sucker radial with a tight fit into the eyelets it will be strong enough i think.

If the spokes are too long and poke into the tube you have a problem.

Then it requies a 1 cross pattern, it depends on how deep the rim is, but the eyelets can be filed ( with the round file ) at an angle to acomodate the angle of the spokes.

If you can get 14 gauge spokes of the right lenght, they are just as good if you lace it tight..... but i have had good success with the 12 gauge personally.

Ypedal said:

I've tried the drill method but the problem is that the eyeltes jam into the drill bit and spin loose into the rim, with the power of the drill you risk creating a problem if it jams at the wrong time lol..

Take a nipple, thread it upside down on a spoke to make life easier, then with a small enough round file work the eyelet all around until the spoke fits..

You can lace that sucker radial with a tight fit into the eyelets it will be strong enough i think.

If the spokes are too long and poke into the tube you have a problem.

Then it requies a 1 cross pattern, it depends on how deep the rim is, but the eyelets can be filed ( with the round file ) at an angle to acomodate the angle of the spokes.

If you can get 14 gauge spokes of the right lenght, they are just as good if you lace it tight..... but i have had good success with the 12 gauge personally.

Click to expand...

Thanks alot Ypedal!! :wink:

Just one thing, can you translate it to french, cause i'm not sure i correctly understand that phrase :lol:
Take a nipple, thread it upside down on a spoke to make life easier, then with a small enough round file work the eyelet all around until the spoke fits..

What i understand is: faire des filets a l'envers sur le nipples pour lui rendre la vie plus facile... !! that's not what i should understand

après cela, avec un ?round file? (fichier rond...??) travailler l'oeillet autour jusqu'à temps qu'il s'insère correctement

Tu dois rire pas mal là enh?!! mon anglais est pas tout à fait au point quelque fois... :lol:

Doc

Think I understand what Ypedal type?
"Take a nipple, thread it upside down on a spoke to make life easier, then with a small enough round file work the eyelet all around until the spoke fits.."
View attachment 1


Spoke not shown in pictures.

Un portrait vaut mille mots ! lol..

Ma grammaire francaise est comme ton anglais ! hehe.. Prends un rayon ( spoke ) et inverse le " nipple " .. uhhhh. ok . je prends d'autres portraits a la maison , donnne moi 2 heures !! :wink:

Edit : Take the metal file and ream/make the hole bigger... check wiht the spoke/nipple often to get a tight fit.. !

Instead of holding the nipple in your fingers and loosing in inside the rim between the 2 walls .. making you very angry... thread it upside down on a spoke to hold the nipple while you check the size of the hole !

:wink:

Here ya go Doc !

Round file.

Spoke with nipple threaded on in reverse for measuring the hole size

Ypedal said:

I've tried the drill method but the problem is that the eyeltes jam into the drill bit and spin loose into the rim, with the power of the drill you risk creating a problem if it jams at the wrong time lol..

Click to expand...

Thats why I suggested using even downward pressure on the drill(the pressure stops the eyelet from spinning).It takes a few trys to get the hang of it but once you do each hole takes a few seconds rather than minutes.Doc you should definitely use a 1 cross pattern with 24" rims.

Thanks for pics,

ok... and... if i glue the eyeslets on the hub before to drill it?? they should stay in place...

I measured the diameter of my nipples and they are 0.190" dia

I have a drill bit of 189 and a 191.. so that should be ok.

i'll wait for you Ypedal for additional images

Doc

Pictures ?

http://www.ypedal.com/Chaos5.htm

ce qu il explique ce n est qu une methode de travail ...tu mets le nipple a l envers pour prendre la mesure rapidement si ce n est pas assez tu continue a grinder avec une filiere ronde jusqu a ce quelle fit dedans

Houston, we got a problem! :x

I had pain to finish the third and 4th stage spokes on that rim!

12 gauge spokes are difficult to assemble when your rim eyeslets doesn't fit!!!

--TAKE 1--
First, I drilled all eyeslet.. then i began to assemble the first round of spokes...I just turned 3 or 4 turn on the nipple to allow space to work..

then i assembled the second round of spokes... from now.. no problem
I turned the rim to twist the 2 round of spokes clockwise.. to prepare the next third round of spokes in the other directions

And.. the main problem i had is that the driled hole in the eyeslet only allowed the nipple to fit straigt.. and no angle possible on the nipple.. so to assemble the third round i NEED to put these nipples at the angle to be able to screw it on the spoke that came in the other direction...

--TAKE 2--
So i dissassembled all the spokes and verified with my other 5303 hub to see if something is wrong... and it was correct.

Then i noted all spokes angle that goes on the rim eyeslet with a blue pencil on the rim.. then i drilled again all eyeslet in each of these angles.

I began again the third round of spokes install( the spoke in the inverse angle single crossed)

I succeded to screw all, but some nipples had difficulty to screw and the first threads brokes in the eyeslet...

all the spokes have been already very thight... but i diden't torqued them.. i just needed to make few turn of each nipples, but to be able to fix all them i needed to tight alot all of them to reach the only firsts threads... like if the spokes could be too short..

And came the final 4th round installation...

I have to say that it was a pain to install!! :x

I had to tighten again all the 3 first round of spokes to be able to reach the first thread of the spokes!!

Well.. something is certainly wrong !!

I dont understand why they was so difficult to install .. I oiled all thread before to ensure no friction could make it difficult to screw..

but the shape and the crossing desing i used are standars.. the offset of the rear hub motor from the rim is ok too..

But the spokes are tightened at the very limit.. and i still see the threads on the spokes... :|

They make the same sound than the last cord of an electric guitar!!

I checked to see if it could be normal to see the thread on the spokes on some other wheel i have.. and no one have that problem..... maybe if i see this exemple, where we may observe the thread on the spokes, indicating that i'm ok too?

http://www.scootonthis.com/images/jpg/productimages/crystalyte/rimblack_600.jpg

i'm confused.. cause i know that all the spokes only have half thread into the nipples.. so they are not as solid as they should !

I really dont understand why Justin sent me this kit of rim ad spokes that are not compatibles...!

i'll go to sleep now.. it's 2:30am maybe that will help for tomorrow
...
Doc

Doctorbass,
What is length of your spokes?
I copy from http://ypedal.com/Products.htm
Spokes:

4 Series Motor 16" rim = 57 mm
4 Series Motor 20” rim = 106 mm
4 Series Motor 24” rim = 165 mm
4 Series Motor 26” rim = 190 mm
4 Series Motor 700C rim = 218 mm

X5 20” rim = 77 mm
X5 24” rim = 138 mm
X5 26” rim = 165 mm

I will try to build, repair just about anything. I got a fear of lacing bicycle wheels. Need to have wheel laced for my Electric Bike Project # 2. Took rim, motor, and spokes to local bike shops. 1st said "don't want to look at it" 2nd one said "no can do" 3rd one said "We too busy" 4th one said "Will have it done by yesterday" Not done yet

Yes, those pesky spokes are a problem.

Not all 26" rims are the same diameter, so you have to keep that in mind. The ERD varies depending on the shape of the cross section.

i don t want to alarm you but i checked my spoke and only one of them i see 2 or 3 threads...all others i don t see the threads

Doc it is definitely a PAIN IN THE ASS to lace 12 gauge spokes with a 1 cross pattern in a 24" rim,but it will work and it takes time for the spokes to settle.After you have trued your wheel make sure you check your spokes after every ride for about a month.The spokes should be firm with little movement but do not over tighten.If some spokes are showing threads and others are not dont worry they will settle into place.

thanks for advices and oppinions..
.
I finished the wheel yesterday.

today i got the device to adjust the spokes (the tool for truing).. I have a frined that have his own compagny about trial bike : http://www.hbtrials.com/menu_en.html

and he borrowed me that tool

I'll try to adjust the best as i can.

Also, here is the email i sent to Justin andthe answer i got from Zev yesterday about that problem:

Hi Stéphane, This is Zev stepping in for Justin momentarily.

> I tried to assemble my 24" wheel i ordered (Rim24J23S)and the spokes(SP138)> you sent me and the eyeslets holes in the rim are too small to fit the> nipples inside!

Zev: These spokes and nipples seems to be larger than> conventional one.. The eyelets do indeed have to be drilled out slightly to accommodatethe larger 12 gauge nipples. 14 gauge should be strong enough for a500 series, but Crystalyte's way of solving problems is to add morematerial rather than investigate why there are spokes breaking in thefirst place (spoke bend didn't match flange before, leaving space toshift back and forth for fatigue failure). As for Crystalyte spokes generally, we will probably stop stocking them altogether and just cut custom spokes when required instead.

> Q2: if i drill these eyeslets, they will be less strong.. could they crack?

In theory, but I doubt that this would happen. >

Q3: do you have different 24" rim that accept these spokes size?

Nope. If we do the wheel build here we drill the eyelets.

Q4: Or different spokes size for 24" rim and X5?

We could cut custom spokes in single-butted 13 gauge, but the Clytespokes and rims come exactly as you have them. >

Q5: I noted that the front 5303 26" you sent me have these spokes size, but> my older 5305 have smaller spokes size why did they changed them?

They had complaints that the old spokes broke, and rather than solving the problem properly they just went to more material. >

Q6: are the bigger spokes better?

Yes and no. They are less likely to break, but they do causeadditional problems as you've seen.

Q7 finally, have you received my last email about problem with 5303 slack bearing?

I left this for Justin to answer. He was in Seattle on vacation for acouple days but he should be back online soon.

Zev


Doc

Finally, today, I got the wheel truing tool from my friend Hugo

it was pretty easy for my very first time about truing a wheel !

That took me 45min and it is perfect!

see my setup:

Doc