Hi All

O

outofsquare

10 mW
Joined
Dec 5, 2012
Messages
30
Location
Adelaide, Australia
Just wanted to quickly introduce myself by saying Hi, I have been following this forum for the last 3 years just about everyday reading the new posts, its helped me tremendiously in getting around the basic concepts of it all.

I have been riding my petrol motorized bike for some years & now am shelfing that concept and moving ahead to a clean means of transport to get me around, I am over petrol engines! :mrgreen:

Im sure I will be asking for advice on the battery & controller side of things as this is an area where I am not that confident on

Cheers all forum memebers & have a great & safe Christmas & new year to all

Tom.
 
Sure am, trying to decide whether I go hub drive or mid mount, but am leaning towards mid mount as I want to take advantage of using the gears on the bike, so many decisions now to think about which way I'm going to go, I sold my petrol assisted bike today :lol: , so have some coin to start my project.

Cheers

Tom
 
outofsquare said:
Sure am, trying to decide whether I go hub drive or mid mount,.......Cheers Tom
Click to expand...

Welcome! :D

OK, step one is to have a budget. Do you know about how much you want to spend!

Step two is to let us know about where you live so we can help with an honest assessment about shipping costs and perhaps personal help if one of us lives near-by.

Let us know! :D
 
Hi Again,

I would like to to keep within the 1K buget, this does not include the bike purchase, I reside in Adelaide Australia.

From all I have read about over the years I have been following this forum is that a good battery set up is not cheap, from what I have learnt from the forum I have been asking questions in regards to batteries to a few stores around & on Ebay in Australia, and from asking queations with those that are claiming huge power they have come back to me after asking what C ratings the cells are at 1 to 2 C, and from what I have read here this is an inportant factor in cell perfomance (correct me if I am wrong & misunderstood), as no one seems to ever state the C rating.

The batteries side of things have me concerned, as only a few weeks ago on the news it was reported & e bike caught on fire due to the battery pack going up in smoke, apparently it was a store bought pack made from RC batteries, and I dont want this to happen to me if at all possible Lol.

Im still tosing up on bike frame to use, I dont want a suspension frame, and speed is not an important factor, if I can cruise around 25 to tops 30km/hr I will be more than happy, I would prefer distance over speed, over here its a 250 watt law with max speed at 25km/hr & assist can not come into play until 6km/hr & of you stop peddling at all the power assist must disengage.

I want to stay leagal as the fines are $1200 & if you have a car licence you will loose demerit points, and I can not afford this as I need my licence for work.

Hope forum memebers can give me some advoce on batteries, if I am to use a 250 watt motor to suit my needs.

Cheers

Tom
 
There's the dilemma. Save too much money on the battery, and anything might happen, from a fire to just the thing quits too soon. Another $500 in the budget would help, but depending on your needs for distance and speed, a thou might be enough.
 
I need to travel 30km round trip to work & back home, the road is uneven at the middle section of the ride, only slight graients, nothing I could not peddle easy enough on my own accord, but again it would add to around about 5km worth on each leg, I would be more than happy to sit around 25 km/hr if at all possible, I do want to use a mid drive system & take advatge of the gearing for that added torque required for the uneven section, so batteries I am not sure on what I really should look at in size and capacity, any suggestions would be great :lol:

Tom
 
outofsquare said:
From all I have read about over the years I have been following this forum is that a good battery set up is not cheap
Click to expand...
A lot of variables goes into each e-bike build, so it can take a bit of work to get everything going on your first build. As I say to nubes...You have to build one to know how to build one.

A good battery setup is not cheap if you want range but range is a great thing to have. I get about 20-22 miles (32 - 35 k) on my 15ah Headway LiFePO4 pack. That is averaging 12 mph (19 K) with lots of starts and stops in the city.
I also bought the 12 amp hour charger so I can fully recharge in 90 minutes or less. It all cost more then I wanted to spend, but it has turned out to be worth it.

The reason I went with LiFePO4s is for their relative safety. In other words, they probably will not catch on fire when I am recharging my pack at work. RC lipo will definitely give you more watt hours for the same price, a smaller package and a better C rating, but they can catch on fire.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=46011

C rating is important if you want performance. In other words, if cruising along is fine with you, then a 3c battery pack is probably fine. But if you want fast starts and some extra torque going up hills then perhaps a higher C rating is what you want.
I dont want a suspension frame...
Click to expand...
If you live where the streets are perfect, or you spine is young and supple, don't get a suspension frame. I highly recommend a suspension frame for comfort! At least front suspension. If you ride a non suspension frame bone crusher for a while you will know what I mean.

Hope forum memebers can give me some advoce on batteries, if I am to use a 250 watt motor to suit my needs.
Click to expand...

I went with LiFePO4 for the safety of it. I went with Headway because of the ease of building within it's system, the fact that I could build an in-frame triangle battery pack that was under 4 inches wide so my legs didn't rub when I peddled and because my vendor was in my country and able to speak English.

Those were my requirements. You need to figure out your own.

Have you checked out the thread on Manufacturers/Dealers to Gravitate Towards

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6992

It probably has all the answers you seek. :D
 
Thanks E Beach for the heads up,

I am seriously thinking about the Headway's as well, I'm looking at the 15ah battery kit they offer, but not cheap when freight is taken into account. I have pretty much decided on a bike frame to use, it will have front suspension forks and hard tail rear, its not going to be a super high end bike, but pretty much middle of the road, as I'm not after top speed, I will be happy if I can stick around 20 - 25km/hr most of the journey

Cheers

Tom
 
So far, your needs seem pretty moderate. A really minimal kit would do that distance and speed.

So the typical entry level kit of under 400w planetary gearmotor, 15 amp controller, and a 36v 10 ah lifepo4 or Limn battery would do it. Your range at 25kph should be at least 30k. Slow makes the battery stretch very far, particularly if you pedal up 50-100w more.

However, as you pick up speed, using a lot more watts, 35kph would require a 15 ah pack. So when direct drive motors and 20 amp controllers are selected, 15 ah of battery or more is best. This setup that typically runs up to 40kph tends to cost more for the battery, and often runs closer to $1200 USD budget. Not including the bike itself.

Again, if you ride much faster than 25kph, then 10 ah would be pretty tight for your range. Charging at work would solve all of course.
 
Hey tom,

Like dogmann said, 1k will be a challange, particually for a 30+km round trip, but its probably achievable. From the sound of it a hub might be best, as mid drives tend t cost more, both short and long term, and as a commuter hubs are generally more reliable.

With an extra 500 id say go with a mac motor, 14s or so headways and a lyen controller, which would total about 1000 or so on its own, but give you a ultra reliable lower power setup, that should steach to 30 k with some pedaling, or maybe a topup at work.

I wouldnt worry much about the 250w laws, just ride sensibly and cops wont bother you. Ive been riding a rather unsubtle 4000w ebike for over a year with 0 problems, just because i keep the wild antics to the offroad.

Also, add 'adelaide' to your profile, itll help forum memers to give the best advice in the future, particularly regarding where and what parts to get.... Good to see another southener on the forums!
 
Yeah, if you can, up the budget so you don't force yourself into a low power setup for years.

Bet you find you like cruising at 35kph a LOT more. A larger hubmotor and a 15 ah headway would be a great setup for that.

But I could be wrong, my wife is like that. Won't ride an ebike faster than 15 kph. Says at that speed why not just pedal. That slow, she's right.
 
outofsquare said:
Thanks E Beach for the heads up, I am seriously thinking about the Headway's as well, I'm looking at the 15ah battery kit they offer, but not cheap when freight is taken into account.
Yea, shipping is a problem with fuel prices up and hazardous cargo fees on top on that. (Batteries are considered hazardous cargo. :lol: )

My Headways have been very dependable so far including holding up after a bike crash I had when I flipped my back tire over my head because a cager turned in front of me and stopped. :evil:
Now keep in mind that I have my batteries mounted in my triangle in a solid wood frame with metal straps clamping the plastic battery holders tightly to the wood frame. Very solid! I always recommend putting as much of your battery pack in the triangle for proper weight balance. All the weight on the back of the bike, like on the rear rack will poorly affect the balance of the bike thus affect your handling.

Have you checked out what it cost to get a Mac kit from Paul at www.emissions-free.com? He has a fine reputation around here and is at least 3000 miles closer to you then to me so shipping shouldn't be such a killer.

Ping battery also has a fine reputation around here so be sure to check them out as well. www.pingbattery.com
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Thanks for all the info fellow forum memebers, you have been great in pointing me in the right direction, I will take the advice and settle for the 15 AH battery cells from Headways, I actually ordered them just now, and yeah the shipping cost is not cheap, at $165, but I like the idea of building my own battery pack.

In Adelaide there used to be a machine shop wich pretty much builds kick arse petrol engines on the side of there norm business (they are well know for there high quality builds) & I spoke to them yesterday about somthing about my motor and mentioned I was building my own E bike for daily commuting, thats when he let the cat out the bag and told me they are in the last stages of releasing a mid mount kit (moumting system only), he said they are just waitng on the patent to come through before releasing it, he also said that they have designed a real neat bracket machined from billet aluminium which will wrap around the battery pack & attach to the top tube, and they can alter there design to suit any top tube or battery pack shape, so might send him my details of the top tube diameter & battery dimensions, as I want it to be a real neat build, Im going to wait for there mounting kit as I know there wrokmanship & its flippin awsome.

So all looking like Im getting there slowly, Im really excited about geeting the battery from Headways, and going to use a cyclone motor, only going to go with the 250 watt motor though as I want to stay 100% legal, I have to ride past a big cop station & always heaps of them on the road where I am, just want to commumte to work & back, cut my hosuehold running costs & go green :mrgreen:

Ive pretty much realized that 1K budget is not enough, have gotten the approval from the cook to up it to $1500 or whatever I need Lol, I basically worked out that it costs me in fuel alone $65 a week to get to work and back every, so in 6 months Im going to save $1400 in fuel + $60 parking fee's + $495 in regestration + $325 insurance + maintenece, so the bike would have paid itself off in 6 months with its eyes shut, and the bike will fit in the lift & will park it in the store room. (thats how I sold the budget increase) & Im going to sell my car which is only used for me to get to work on top of that, I should have done this a long time ago, oh well as I always say better late than never.

Speak soon all

Tom
 
Hey outofsquare, welcome n all that stuff too :)

'kay first up, I can pretty much help you with everything you need, and you'd end up with components that will enable you to run a base build that is compliant with our current 250w 25km/h. pedelec etc etc, and also easily upgradeable up to 1.5kw 50km/h.

I provide a "basic" kit, either front wheel drive, or rear wheel drive, based on a Cohnis DD hub, a controller that I modify to REDUCE the 20 amps standard to 10 amp (to enable you to run it legally compliant at 24v and which is easily swapped out for an unmodded 20 amp controller if you choose to go for greater torque).

ultimately there are two "upgrade paths" with my cohnis motor kits... via increasing the voltage (takes up to 48 volts) and via swapping out the 10 amp controller (or reversing my mods) for a 20 amp.

I provide ping batteries and battery mounting solutions, either basic (well padded bag for handlebar, rear rack or mid frame mounting, depending on what you want to go for).

For the base kit, I use a Ping 24v 10 ah battery... at the 250w/25 km/h level this gives you a range of around 40 km (though a couple of customers claim around the 50 km mark , but I think they are pedal demons :))
Here's my "for sale" thread in the ES market place :

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=43092

Add an extra $300 for a ping 24v 10 ah battery and your good to go for the princely sum of....... $750 :) Plus I'll support you through the build process....

Funnily enough I have plans of going to Adelaid early in the new year so could even provide you with "on the ground" support ...

'Course th other option is I can do a complete build, bike plus kit... (I have a range of bikes) for the total sum of $1000, no idea of shipping costs, but again, may be able to deliver it in person

Anyways... PM me if you are interested....

Cheers n Beers

Joe (head honcho, and dogsbody of Franckencycle... Eclectic electric Cycles)
 
No problems mate, still might touch base with you for some advice, I watched some You Tube vids of assembling the battery pack, seems to be straight forward enough for what I'm going to assemble, hopefully the kit comes with clear instructions that I can follow, it would be great if there was a video around of detailed assembly for us new comers, as video says a million words, and its great to see someone doing what I'm about to do.

Cheer All

Tom
 
Nothing wrong with your plans so far. A good set of headways will allow upgrades in power later if you change your mind about wanting more wattage.

You'll get nicer starts out of 250w with a low gear on the bike, than a 26" hubmotor would give at 250w. But once up and going, a quiet and simple hubmotor is nice too.

Your savings calculations are slightly off though, you'll actually save more than you think, by putting off the day a car would need repairs or replacement. That can be priceless. In my case, I put off a $2000 repair on my old car for two extra years, then when forced to went back to a payment on a new car. So add 2 years times my new car payment of $350 a month. That's $9400 I saved by riding an ebike more than driving for a few years. Hopefully the new car can be made to last 20 years instead of 10, giving me this as the last car I buy in my lifetime.

If you put 150k a week on an ebike, it pays for itself pretty fast. But the catch 22 is you end up spending the savings on more and better ebikes. :roll: Even so, ebikes is a really cheap hobby compared to many others. Boats are holes in the water you pour money into for example.
 
So true Dogman,

Im really only doing this to cut my hosehold budget, I dont want to catch regular transport, as then Im tied to a timetable & secondly its flippinn expensive to purchase a weekly multi pass, and I have to struggle with every other pshyco trying to get on & off Lol.

One thing I have to consider is that Im going to have to ride in the rain, I will search through the posts, & to do a bit of research in what people have modified with the Cyclone motor & types of connectors best to use, as it just dawned upon me that I have not even considered this as yet, and I dont even know if these twist throttles are okay in the rain, to posts to find out I go :shock:

Tom
 
Hubmotor setups tolerate rain well, once you put some small ventilating holes in the covers to let excess humidity breath out of them. The rest does require some waterproofing. I'm clueless about the cyclones, but a good long front fender would be step one, so you don't spray it all day from the front tire.

Throttles can short, and this is particularly a problem with the throttles that also include a battery level indicator. So get a three wire throttle, or if 4 wire, don't connect the battery pack voltage wire. On the worst days, some kind of extra measure to keep a throttle dry is good, as is a spare dry one in your bag of tools and tire pump. The controller gets located in as dry a place as the bike has. With a rear fender in use, I like to put em under my ass, letting that help keep some water off.

Ebike plus a bus that has a bike rack can be a good way to get farther on the ebike, or take the sting out of the worst weather days. But I agree, tied to that schedule every day is a pita. In my town, the busses come by only once an hour. 30 seconds late, and you wait another hour. NO WAY. But I did bus it some on the very very coldest mornings. Then ride the ebike home later when it warmed up some.
 
dogman said:
Hubmotor setups tolerate rain well,
Click to expand...
Yes, generally speaking. I was caught in a torrential downpour a few months ago. I was 5 miles from home and I had to continue home because I knew it was going to get worse. So I kept riding through several sections where there was about 6 to 8 inches of water. About 1/5 mile from home, my controller exploded (but that another story), so I walked the bike home and put it in the garage. I immediately dried out the battery and it survived fine. Then I examined the badly damaged controller. I totally ignored the new unmolested 9C 2807 hub motor thinking that it was not affected. 2 or 3 weeks later I discovered that the hub motor was frozen. Have not opened it up yet but I'm sure it was all rusted inside.
 
Scooter i have built has 1kW 48V motor running 36V, 20AH battery goes 34kph hot of charger and does 43km. I dont see the reason to go mid mount and have gears when you want to comply with a law and and go 30kph tops. Something like 36v 800W hub in 20" rim will be good for some hill climbing yet achieve your 30kph + easier to build, no hassle with reduction + more space on the frame.
 
Thanks for all the suggestions with rain, I am definitely going to take them on board, the only reason why I want to go mid mount drive for my first build is for the tinkering side of things & I have one mother of a climb in a section to get to work, & I want to utilize the gears on the bike to get me up that climb, and to make my build a bit more challenging, I have ordered a mid mount motor cradle from a machine shop, so it will be relatively straight forward, BUT I'm not going to stop there, I'm going to build another E bike & that one will be rear hub motor set up, as my cook has now seen the benefits of utilizing an E bike, especially that 90% of her running around is withing the 5km range from home, so once I've sold my car I will have the funds to build hers & bank the remainder of the funds in our savings for a rainy day. :mrgreen:

I love to tinker with things that aint the norm or straight forward, as my day job involves exactly that, and I get a buzz from it.

I really appreciate all the suggestions people have given me, as I am taking into consideration all of them.

Cheers

Tom
 
e-beach said:
If you live where the streets are perfect, or you spine is young and supple, don't get a suspension frame. I highly recommend a suspension frame for comfort! At least front suspension. If you ride a non suspension frame bone crusher for a while you will know what I mean.
Click to expand...

Speak for yourself. There are lots of not-young folks on crapped out streets going faster than you are on normal unsuspended bikes-- e-bikes, motorized bikes, and even pedal bikes. The benefits they enjoy include light weight, quietness, simplicity, low cost, reliability, improved aesthetics, reduced maintenance, and better behavior when carrying loads.

Appropriately fat tires at appropriate pressures are all the suspension you need at legal and sorta-kinda-legal e-bike speeds.

Even if you are not going to make the effort to pedal, surely you can make enough effort to stand up before running over an obstacle?
 
Chalo said:
Speak for yourself. There are lots of not-young folks on crapped out streets going faster than you are on normal unsuspended bikes-- e-bikes, motorized bikes, and even pedal bikes.
Click to expand...
Only if I let them. :wink:
No pedal bike beats me from the beach to downtown L.A. I have yet to find a local e-biker that can drop me either. On the bike paths by the beach I only found one peddle biker this year who even tried to challenge my pace, and believe me a lot of fast cyclists ride those paths every day. Many are training for races. As a younger man I used to peddle up and down those bike paths at 150 miles per week. I know that path well. The guy who did keep me maxed out was legitimately fast, and in great shape, but he mostly just tucked into my draft and pumped as hard as he could for about 5 miles until he had to quit. :lol:

The benefits they enjoy include light weight, quietness, simplicity, low cost, reliability, reduced maintenance
Click to expand...
Agreed, provided they want to peddle.
improved aesthetics,
Click to expand...
That is in the eye of the beholder.
and better behavior when carrying loads.
Click to expand...
My e-bike is equal or better then any peddle bike I have ever had at carrying loads. Abrupt stopping is a different issue. :lol:
Appropriately fat tires at appropriate pressures are all the suspension you need at legal and sorta-kinda-legal e-bike speeds. Even if you are not going to make the effort to pedal, surely you can make enough effort to stand up before running over an obstacle?
Click to expand...
If you don't mind brushing some efficiency with less then fully inflated tires, then yea ,the tires can take some of the impact, but suspension will still take more. And unless the rider is fully 100% attentive in their ride they will miss bumps along the way that vibrate into their body. Even taking ones eyes off the road to watch for cagers is enough to miss a bone rattling crack in the road.

I will forever take a suspended e-bike over a non-suspension e-bike every time....speaking for myself of course. :D
 
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