2005 Kona Stinky GNG 1.0 build (mid-drive Stink-E) ABANDONED

skyungjae

10 kW
Joined
Nov 30, 2012
Messages
832
Location
Southern California
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http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=46164&p=674028#p690597

Hey Y'all,

My name is John, and I'm from sunny Southern California. Like most people, I've been on and off a bike my whole life, and this time I want to get on an e-bike. In the past several weeks, I've been lurking around thinking about whether to turn my old 90's performance bike into a hub driven e-bike, buy something built, or simply start over.

Anyhow, I just picked up a Kona Stinky DH in the past week as it seems to be a known platform to build on. Well, like all new comers, there's simply a lot that I don't understand by searching threads.

As many of us know, mission drives equipment. I ride my bike about 6 miles round trip per day to the train station and back for work and live in a hilly area. That being said, the trails I want to climb are very steep as well.

What I intend on doing is using a Crystalyte Phoenix II running a 72v system for torque from electricrider.com. I did read up that someone did break their Stinky DH's dropouts. I've read up on a handful of people fabing up torque arms or modifying popular ones. Somewhere on this forum another person is using the ones from ebikes.ca but didn't specify if he had to make any modifications (still awaiting a reply). I would like a bolt in option that wouldn't require permanent modification of my swing arm.

Also, I want to run the batteries in the frame (don't need crazy Ah), so I'm most likely going to have to put my own battery pack together. This is where I spent hours on end searching and really... just got more confused. Any help here would be great. I'd love to use those Zippy LiFePO4s, but I need help with a BMS, so I don't destroy the controller that comes with the kit.

Again, any help or suggestions would be great.

I'll be posting pictures and progress.
 
skyungjae said:
As many of us know, mission drives equipment. I ride my bike about 6 miles round trip per day to the train station and back for work and live in a hilly area. That being said, the trails I want to climb are very steep as well.
You might want to measure the actual trip for length of each hill and slope, so you can figure out using online evehicle power calculators for how many watts it will take to climb them at the speed you want, and how long it will take at that speed so you can know how many watt-hours (wh) you'll have to ahve to complete the trip.

There are websites like mapmyride that can give slope data, but some of them work not so well unless you do it all in very very short bits and manually add it all up, so it can be more accurate to go measure the actual path.


but I need help with a BMS, so I don't destroy the controller that comes with the kit.
BMS doesn't have anything to do with protecting the controller, just hte battery from overcharge or overdischarge.

Unfortunatley batteries are usually teh most complex problem to solve for an EV, and every single one with a different use pattern needs a different one, so it's hard to just go find another person's build that works for them and copy what they did, unless they use theirs the same way you use yours. You can always build overkill for your application, and then be really safe about it, but if you build to the edge of what you need, then any situation (longer trip, detours, heavy traffic with lots of stops and starts, higher headwinds, steeper hills) that comes up outside what it was built for may stress or damage the battery or just leave you pedalling (or stranded).

Id' recommend getting at least half-again the Wh you need for your longest hardest trip, in case it is longer or harder than you expect sometime, and so that as the batteries age and weaken they can still make the trip.
 
Well another one diving into the deep end to learn to swim. Let me give you some advice.

Build two ebikes, one for the street first. No reason not to build it on the stinky first, unless you would like to trail ride the stinky motorless for awhile.

This is more expensive, of course, but cheaper than learning a few things the hard way with more expensive higher power stuff. Get a less expensive 36-48v kit for the first try, such as the Yescom USA kit, or the direct drive muxus from emissions free, or a dd kit from Grin, or EbikeKit.

Battery might still be RC Lipo from hobby king, but start out with an inexpensive and easy to manage 44v 12s 10 ah pack.

You'll be able to do moderate trail rides with this, if you pedal hard up the steepest hills. With a moderate tread tire, you can ride any trail with a grade under 10% on the "street setup". Long as you can maintian 15mph, no problem.

Then when you undersand things a lot better, start planning on your bike that is going to be built for the trails. By then you will know what approach will work best for your ride style and the type of trails in your locality. You might want to go with a 12T Mac on 44v for the trails, a 72v Crystalyte HT, or mabye go with 20" wheels and moped tires and a monster motor. With experience to help, you can choose your bike frame and motor better later.

Back to the bike itself, will the bike sit at the station all day? If so you might want to go with the old bike, then ugly it up as much as possible. That stinky will vanish when it's known you will be leaving it there all day every day. Another reason to go low cost as possible on the motor kit too. The 12s 10 ah lipo pack will then pop into your knapsack for the day. A rusty as hell old beach cruiser might be your best choice for the ride to the station bike if your other bike is too good looking.
 
Thanks for the tips and advice/suggestions. I'd love to do two builds, but my accountant wife audits my credit card and bank statements every month. I'll just have to take things slow.

My stinky goes with me on the train and into the office. I'd much rather jog to the station than lock it up there.

As for torque arm options, it seems like fabing my own may be the way to go. The only one that "looks" bolt in is the Grin Tech rev4, but I'm not digging the two piece design.

Anyhow, I'm going to hold off on buying anything for the time being. I prefer to "buy once, cry once," but I have a feeling I'm going to be breaking a few eggs throughout this experience. Perhaps I will buy a lower power kit to play with. The work out doesn't bother me regarding riding, but building an e-bike in itself sounds fun.

Again, thanks for the prompt and helpful responses.
 
Ahh, perfect, the bike won't be left there.

May I then suggest a compromise build? For the stinky of course. Make some torque plates, or once set in position, weld the Grin torque arms into one piece.

Emissions Free, or a new ebay seller that just popped up for a MAC rear, planetary gear hubmotor. Get the 10 T model, which will be slower but much more able to tackle steep hills without overheating when trail riding. Run it on 48v, such as the 44v 12s lipo configuration. 20mph is fast enough for trails generally.

You don't need that much speed on a 6 mile ride, so limiting the bike to 20 mph or so won't be that bad, but it will do nice on the trails.

8T Mac, if you feel 20 mph is too slow. It will still climb up to 10% grades with no problems. On my local trails though, 20% sections abound.
 
If you're going to run big power like a Phoenix at high voltage, you're going to need custom torque arms. There's nothing off the shelf that will work well with the Stinky, but the square recess design of the dropouts lends it's self well to making custom torque plates. If propperly done, the become a square peg in a square hole, and doesn't need any extra bolts. (although most of us add some anyway)


You may want to consider Dogman's advice on the MAC motor, or look at a 9C or MXUS. The Stinky can take the abuse of the big motor just fine, but it preforms much better with balanced weight and power as opposed to just raw power.
 
Wow, this is probably the most noob friendly forum I've ever seen. Thanks for the positive advice. I'm more than likely not going to get an expensive powerhouse hub motor at this point.

Out of curiosity, what do y'all think of mid drive systems. I thought about it for a moment, but then I remembered stealth is probably a good way to avoid questions on the metro from the sheriffs and passengers. :lol:
 
Decided to go with the GNG 450w brushless mid drive.

At first, stealth was a concern, but my bike already attracts a whole lot of attention. This will probably be a lot more, but I'm willing to deal with that.

Anyhow, I've gotten everything working except I managed to strip the threads on the crank arm that goes into the front freewheel. :( I still have engine power, but zero human power. I ordered a new freewheel crank, bb, and crank arm. If that can't hold up to my pedaling like this previous one, I may just use the mid drive as a pedal assist and run no front freewheel.

Pictures to come...
 
This is pretty much what I started off with.
IMG_20121230_094729.jpg


Initially, I wanted to go with a hub mounted motor for the stealth aspect; however, a handful of things made me more curious about mid-drive systems. Stealth was pretty much thrown out the window shortly after I started taking my bike on the train. Random people would just ask me questions about the bike most likely due to it's dual crown tripe fork. Also, e-bikes are allowed on MetroLink trains. Anyhow, after seeing a handful of GNG builds, it seemed rather affordable.

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I never decided to go with this battery set up (5S1P 4200mAh x3).

After further research, I should've gone with two LiPo 6S batteries run in a series as Dogman had recommended. Unfortunately, I had already ordered 5 8400mAh LiFePO4 batteries with a Turnigy Mega 400 V2 Charger

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I will probably end up getting LiPos later and running a pair in a frame bag.

Install was pretty straight forward. I had to modify the mounting bracket to clear my swing arm.

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After modifying the bracket, I noticed the motor was actually hitting the frame and there was a little over an inch distance between the front mounting bracket and the frame. I remedied this by using the chain guide from my Black Spire chain guard/guide wrapped in some inner tube. I used pieces of intertube to keep any clamps or ties from directly coming in contact with the white powder coat.
IMG_20130118_173945.jpg


The kit came with a POS grip throttle that wouldn't clear my Shimano Deore Rapid Fire shifters unless it was upside down. I decided to make it into a half grip throttle, and I cut the index finger shifter to clear the throttle housing.

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Since I'm only running 20A max, I decided to use the 15-45A Anderson Powerpoles. I was going to use the 5.5mm bullet connectors at first, but soldering them was taking forever.

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Though a bit overkill, I really like the features of the Cycle Analyst, so I picked up one of the stand alone models. I set the low voltage cut off at 44v which is on the high end of what they recommend for 48v systems. I've read up on too many conflicting low voltage cut offs for LiPo/LiFe set ups, I just wanted to be on the upper end of the spectrum. I also have it limiting my max A at 20 since the controller's max is 22A.

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Testing...


The reason why the crank is off is because earlier that day I was riding around on just human power and managed to shear the threads off the drive side freewheel crank arm (-_-!)
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I can still ride under battery power, but pedaling does absolutely nothing right now. I already have a new freewheel crank, bottom bracket, and crank arms coming. I hope this doesn't happen again.

For now, I'm running the batteries from my CamelBak with an umbilical. I have a 20A fuse on the harness I made for the battery pack. I'm using 10 gauge wire which is probably overkill for the power my system is putting out, but it's always better to be safe than sorry. I'll probably end up running LiPos in the future off a frame bag.
IMG_20130120_201930.jpg


My thoughts:

You definitely get what you pay for. The build quality is obviously not going to be stellar for a $400 shipped kit. As you can see, I've already totaled part of the drive system (though I have replacements on order, I'm looking to upgrade with other tandem bike parts). As other people have noticed, the freewheel crank is not true. For such a low power system, it'll probably only increase the wear in the drivetrain a bit quicker than normal. That's probably what most people looking into this kit can live with. I may actually get rid of the front freewheel and use the motor more as a pedal assist.

Anyhow, thanks everyone for your support and input.

IMG_20130120_202029.jpg
 
Good work! Didn't know Hobby King sold LIFEPO4 - what is the voltage of each of the 5 packs?
 
I assume (on voltage shown on CA) that those are "ZIPPY Flightmax 8400mAh 3S2P 30C LiFePo4 Pack",
each of those would be 9.9v, five of those in series gives you 49.5v.
We may never find out if I am right, but thats life...


edit: just to mention, nice bike :mrgreen:
 
Interesting - did not know they carried those packs - wonder how they compare to the Ping type 48v LIFEPO4 packs from china? The C rate is certainly impressive compared to the minimal C rate of the Ping packs - do they charge past the rated voltage when hot off the charger? Are you using the CA in place of a BMS? I will likely pick up two 6S 5000mh packs as a second battery but this is an interesting option as well
 
dnmun said:
how can you balance those cells without a balancer or a BMS?
Doesn't that charger in the pic have a balancing board and leads coming from each cell? Kind of like a LIPO setup for LIFEPO4?
 
dnmun said:
how can you balance those cells without a balancer or a BMS?

My parallel charging board has ports for the balancing leads on each battery.
IMG_20130117_215742.jpg


It would have been way cheaper to convert all my batteries to the Anderson connectors and buying a parallel charging board with stripped leads.
 
I already have a new front freewheel, crank arm, and bottom bracket on the way, so I thought I'd mess around with the one I currently have. I used a milling bit to put a grove on four opposite sides of the threaded part of the crank arm. Did the opposite, but not as deep on the steel threaded freewheel ring and drove pins in. It wasn't pretty, but it's holding up to whatever I can throw at it. I took it on the trails, did a few small jumps and applied as much torque to get it to slip or fail. I may just keep it like this for a while and keep the incoming parts as back up. I wasn't digging the gloss black, so I sanded them down and put on a few coats of matte black engine enamel I had lying around. Looks much better if you ask me. I also replaced the crank bolts with hex versions since I stripped one of the ones that came with the kit.

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I guess this is it for now... when I get a chance, I'll see how far I can take this thing. I also gotta figure out how to cleanly cover up that wire bundle in front of the controller.

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Update:

So... splining the crank threads and freewheel threads worked great until the pins came loose. :( It scratched up the inside of the chain ring adapter, but the bearing still functions fine. Since it's going to take 3 weeks to get my replacement crank and freewheel (not sure I want to use it considering how easy it was to strip the threads), I decided to order some domestically.

IMG_20130126_150448.jpg

I ended up ordering these off eBay, the crank arms from BikeMotive (I painted them flat black). They look a lot like the sickbikeparts crank arms. The ACS freewheel is garbage. I'd prefer to use the one with the kit, but it was more or less destroyed.

Now here's where I ran into some issues. The new crank arms, beautifully beefier than the GNG ones, sit out much further on the bottom bracket spindle (7mm about), so the chain line is waaaaaaaaay off. I was able to line up the chain by putting the freewheel on the outside of the chain rings and using 6mm x 16mm hex bolts and flat washers.

IMG_20130126_170720.jpg

(pictured w/o washers on the hex bolts and w/o chain tensioner spacer replaced with washers, but you get the idea)
Even though the chain line matched up with the motor, the chain still fell off. I noticed that the chain tensioner, when torqued down wasn't aligned to the motor sprocket freewheel (opposite side of the belt). This may have been when I torqued down the sprocket a little, but I doubt it. I removed the spacer for the tensioner and replaced it with 3 flat washers, and now everything runs smoothly. I've even been able to take it to work. :D

I'm curious if anyone else has had issues with the chain tensioner not lining up with the motor sprocket. :?:

IMG_20130126_170727.jpg


Now here's my dilemma: This set up ^^^ is more than likely going to fail. :x That cheapo freewheel mounted on the outside is not destined for greatness. I suppose I will use the replacement GNG crank arm and freewheel when it arrives, but I'm not too thrilled about doing that. Others with GNG kits seem to be looking for alternatives. I may order the sickbikeparts freewheel, 44t freewheel chain ring, and 4 arm freewheel spider and make my own set up. I've been emailing Jim from sickbikeparts, and he states the standard freewheel is probably a better option than the heavy duty one:

Looking at your application I think actually our standard freewheel is a better option. The HD freewheel is much better in that the pawl mechanism is superior but it only has one bearing and due to your application of the motor in front and rear wheel to the back that will create a nasty twist on the freewheel. Because of this the HD freewheel is not the best option. Our standard freewheel works better in these applications. The only time the pawl mechanism is in play is when you are pedaling. When the motor is running it is only acting as a bearing. That is why you don't need the better pawl system. We need it because we use the pedals to start our gas engines and that puts a lot of force on the pawls.
 
skyungjae said:
Now here's my dilemma: This set up is more than likely going to fail
Yep. Your next problem will be the bottom bracket spindle bending. I've ordered Truvativ Hammersmidt BB and will get ISIS crank arms. Already got WI FW. Will let you know if it works.

Nice build BTW
 
full-throttle said:
skyungjae said:
Now here's my dilemma: This set up is more than likely going to fail
Yep. Your next problem will be the bottom bracket spindle bending. I've ordered Truvativ Hammersmidt BB and will get ISIS crank arms. Already got WI FW. Will let you know if it works.

Nice build BTW

That sounds awesome. I saw some ISIS cranks... then I thought about how the whole point was to keep this project cost effective. The "buy once, cry once" has already gone out the window in my build. :lol:
 
So I'm thinking about pulling the trigger on making my own freewheel setup with sickbikeparts parts.

As in my original post, I'm looking more for torque/climbing power and not necessarily top speed.

The basic set up (from what I've gathered here and not literally counting) is a 12t jackshaft freewheel (motor), to a 44t (outer chainring), mated to a 38t inner chainring, to my Shimano HG-50 Cassette on the rear wheel (most likely the 11-34, but could be an 11-32).

If I go with a 48t outer chainring from the 12t jackshaft freewheel, and use my 32t Blackspire inner chainring (since the GNG 38t is proprietary) will that take some stress off the motor and potentially give me a better torque set up?
 
Update:

I haven't done any flat terrain range testing, but I don't see the point in doing that. The heavy downhill bike itself; the soft, full suspension; and 2.5" wide downhill tires take up so much of the energy. Getting to work and back isn't a problem depending on how I ride. I haven't done the entire Fullerton Loop yet (just the fun parts), but I'm not too sure if the battery would last the entire 11-12 miles of it.

Elevation.jpg

(Before the the incline at mile 1, I am riding on a dirt path where the terrain can get kinda rough.)

This picture is the elevation changes on my way back from work. Going to work is mostly downhill, and if I use the motor, it's just for speed. I do plug in the battery to log miles though. If I ride conservatively, I can stretch the pack to last me three days. That means I'm only using the motor on steeper inclines with very low wattage and a high torque gear. I don't get home any faster, but I'm not dripping sweat when I'm opening my garage door.

On the other hand, if I'm riding like a bat out of hell to and from work (using the bike on the flats and hills and maintaining a good pedal assist speed [10+ mph], I will go ahead and charge the battery when I get home.

It's also nice to know that I can get home using only battery power. :D

Charging my pack is pretty quick. I love my Turnigy 400w and 550w power supply. The power supply is a bit weak for the charger, but I can charge at 10A without the power supply shutting off. From the low voltage cutoff to full charge at 10A is only 30 minutes, pretty good for those 5 batteries in parallel. When I'm doing the balanced charge, I charge at 5A and it takes about an hour. Regardless at what rate I charge the pack at, the performance remains the same. Pulling the pack off the charger and hooking them up in a series will always read out about 49.5v (+/- 0.3v). By the next morning, it's always showing 48.5v.

As for the crank solutions, as many have stated, the double chainring freewheel supplied by GNG doesn't rotate true, so there are loose spots in the chain on the 12T freewheel to the 44T larger chainring. The bike is operating... more or less... consistently, but the way it's rigged up still bothers me. I ordered the Freewheel Spider - 4 Arm 104 mm, Freewheel Oil, Chainring - Freewheel - 48 Tooth w/chain guard, Front Freewheel, Freewheel Removal Tool, and a Single Speed chain from sickbikeparts.

I also pulled off the 12T freewheel on the jackshaft and took some measurements. There was a bit of confusion regarding the diameter (some people saying it's 10mm). It is 14mm in the center, but the keyed part the freewheel attaches to is actually 11mm with a key nub. The length of the output shaft is about 22mm long. I decided to pick up an adapter for 11mm keyed jackshafts from BikeMotive to use a 30mm x 1.0 BMX freewheel, and also ordered an ACS Crossfire 13T to mount on it. The gear ratio from motor to chainring is the opposite of what I wanted to do, but it'll give me more freedom with the chainline (motor to chainring). There's also the added benefit of readily accessible replacement parts.

This setup should work if I decide to go with ISIS cranks down the road. Though the bottom bracket spindle is super long, I'm not to worried about it bending as my cushy suspension takes a lot of the force.

Pictures to come... probably next week.
 
cool bike, better get some coroplast ("used" political signs :mrgreen: ), taped around those batteries. denting can wreck them and you will dent them if they are loose like that. coroplast notched and folded around with a bunch of duck tape works for me. also works with a few extra layers as a battery box on the bike as well
 
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