Aussie powered bike laws warning guys!

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
outofsquare   10 mW

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Re: Aussie powered bike laws warning guys!

Post by outofsquare » Jan 13 2013 10:29pm

dogman wrote:Motorcycles are legal, after you get your licence, register it and insure it. But really, 250w is too low for hubmotors.

If I was stuck with only 250w of assist, I'd for sure want it going through the gears so I could still climb a hill easy, however slow. Hubmotors don't shine till over 1000w.
I totally agree, that's why I decided to go for mid mount drive set up, as 80% of my ride to work is climbing, I'm no pro cyclist or super fit bloke with a six pack & I just don't want to be soaking wet from sweat when I get to work Lol.

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_Chris_   100 W

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Re: Aussie powered bike laws warning guys!

Post by _Chris_ » Jan 14 2013 5:44am

Sunder wrote:
outofsquare wrote:Thought I would copy and paste the info I found on the new laws for Australia, cuts me up with the saying "Paved the Way" & "Greater Choice" 'Gives cyclists a boost" people in government dont live on the same planet I do Lol.
I agree, it's way over sold. It's like taking the Model T ford, and saying you can now have it in Black or Charcoal, and saying that this is a huge win for consumer choice.

I'm not for having 80km/h capable electric bicycles sharing the same bike paths as me and my 3 month old son, but I'm also not for limiting electric assisted bikes to 25km/h and 250W. At some point, an electric bicycle becomes a motorcycle, and should have lights, blinkers, meet ADRs, and be registered, but it's not at 25km/h.
I think they might be trying to group them together with the old person transporter buggys thinking everyone needs to go ridiculously slow. I think we need to have a category in between the low powered eBike and the registered normal petrol vehicle.

I would love nothing better than to register and insure a 1kw+ bike or even hold a pecial restricted licence for one.

I dont want to be a cyclist, I just want to get there...fast!
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_Chris_   100 W

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Re: Aussie powered bike laws warning guys!

Post by _Chris_ » Jan 14 2013 5:47am

Sunder wrote:
heathyoung wrote:Interesting someone mentioned Newcastle NSW ~ hmmmm...

The accuracy of those dynos is probably questionable at such low power - the motorcycle place I asked to get the Vectrix dyno'ed at said they couldn't measure under 1KW, the inertia of the rollers throws out the measurements.
I suspect they would use something like this:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2013-Jet-Bla ... 3cca202657

Image

It measures accurately between 5w and 900w. Even if you assume a generous 20% margin of error, anything over 300W is still illegal.
If there is a discepancy I suppose you could request the testing companies current calibration certificate to be sure it is accurate.
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Re: Aussie powered bike laws warning guys!

Post by toolman2 » Jan 14 2013 7:24am

amusing, but they are going to have to do a bit better in the evidence department than results from $300 ebay 'dyno' ..

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Re: Aussie powered bike laws warning guys!

Post by Lebowski » Jan 14 2013 8:20am

the interesting thing about this EN15194 is that 250W is not the limit... EN15194 talks about a 'maximum continuous nominal power of 0.25 kW' . The key is in 'continuous'. A big commercial ebike producer (Bosch) has chosen to interpret this in a way where the long term average power should be no more than 250W, but that the peak power can be much higher (The Bosch 250W system can actually deliver 650W when going uphill, as downhill costs no power the average kinda is 250).
My bike for instance can deliver 1 kW peak but from experience I know the long term average on my trip to work is 180W, so all perfectly legal :mrgreen:
Try explaining this to a police officer though...

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knoxie   10 MW

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Re: Aussie powered bike laws warning guys!

Post by knoxie » Jan 14 2013 8:34am

This sounds like a load of old balls if you ask me they are scare mongering you...

If the po po in Oz have time to randomly pull over cyclists who have not yet committed any apparent crime to check if their pushbikes are legal then all I can think is you lot are pretty well behaved in oz and the po po have nothing better to do :lol:

For me the cops would have to catch me first that's assuming I was worried enough and also hadn't turned my handle bar mounted throttle limiter down anyway (yes its current limiting too) OK if i were in an accident and were not able to turn it down then I would be in trouble but that's assuming I didn't hurt anyone but me.

We have very restrictive laws on power over the here pretty much the same as in OZ, I simply would never ever ride an ebike if it were crippled to 250W, in over 12 years of riding them I have never ever been questioned by the cops about it not once, if you are sensible and do all the right things you wont have a problem, this includes having lights on, having working brakes, not riding like a maniac, being courteous to other road uses and ride in a safe manner, you can do all this with 2KW on tap and even though your power is not legal you are on paper much safer than none assisted cyclists as you are more likely to be able to stay with the flow of the traffic, get away from stops quickly, you wont be weaving right and left whilst climbing a hill etc etc.

Wouldnt it be much better for the cops to target proper asshole cyclists like the ones that ride the wrong way up the road, with no lights, the ones that jump red lights, the ones with no brakes like most BMXers (who also almost always ride on the sidewalk too)

Its very hard to prosecute based upon dyno evidence too as most of the off the shelf so called legal kits will exceed their specified limits under loading anyway, if this is true? its a prime example of yet another knee jerk draconian ill conceived plan to thwart peoples attempts at cheap and friendly low tax transportation, its nothing to do with safety and all about making money.

If I were in OZ I would do as the Jester and Hyena do and just ride and enjoy 8)
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dingoEsride   100 kW

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Re: Aussie powered bike laws warning guys!

Post by dingoEsride » Jan 14 2013 9:59am

knoxie wrote: If I were in OZ I would do as the Jester and Hyena do and just ride and enjoy
Most of us do here Knoxie, its a big country and the law has to know when and where it breaks or its not brocken
Lebowski wrote:the interesting thing about this EN15194 is that 250W is not the limit... EN15194 talks about a 'maximum continuous nominal power of 0.25 kW' . The key is in 'continuous'. A big commercial ebike producer (Bosch) has chosen to interpret this in a way where the long term average power should be no more than 250W, but that the peak power can be much higher (The Bosch 250W system can actually deliver 650W when going uphill, as downhill costs no power the average kinda is 250).
My bike for instance can deliver 1 kW peak but from experience I know the long term average on my trip to work is 180W, so all perfectly legal
Try explaining this to a police officer though...
Sounds good to me
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Re: Aussie powered bike laws warning guys!

Post by hydro-one » Jan 14 2013 10:04am

JUST RIDE
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Re: Aussie powered bike laws warning guys!

Post by hydro-one » Jan 14 2013 10:05am

the laws of the universe are in your favor!!
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_Chris_   100 W

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Re: Aussie powered bike laws warning guys!

Post by _Chris_ » Jan 14 2013 3:57pm

One thing that is different to us in Australia is we live in a country with is really broad and not as densely populated as Europe where th laws aware copying originated. Over there some of them take an overnight bag for an hour and a half trip. We need bikes that can have a decent top speed for along timers cover long Virtuality empty roads.
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Sunder   100 MW

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Re: Aussie powered bike laws warning guys!

Post by Sunder » Jan 14 2013 6:33pm

toolman2 wrote:amusing, but they are going to have to do a bit better in the evidence department than results from $300 ebay 'dyno' ..
When the testimony of two police without any measuring device can be accepted as evidence that you were speeding, you think the courts would reject a dyno reading?

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Re: Aussie powered bike laws warning guys!

Post by Hyena » Jan 14 2013 7:26pm

_Chris_ wrote:Much to my surprise I discovered yesterday in my area the local boys in blue have been pulling over power assisted bicycles and checking them for compliance to new rules
Urggh, this again...

Did you actually get pulled over on an ebike ?
As has been posted before it's the assholes on petrol "motorised" bikes the cops have it in for - for the reasons posted above.
Unless they're blanket pulling over everything on 2 wheels with no number plate and going over it most ebikes would silently pass by without them even knowing. Assuming you have the common sense to ride past any police presence in a suitable fashion.

Anyway, the old 200w laws are still in place so they can't get you specifically for not complying with the new 250w laws (which are more restrictive despite the supposedly wonderful 50w boost in power they're allowing :roll: )

And even if your bike CAN put out more than 200w who's to say you were using it at the time you were pulled over ? Pedal and they can't stick a thing to you.
I haven't got time to search for the exact wording now but the old RTA website said something about maximum 200w and that motors that can simply be governed or turned down to 200w are discouraged. "Discouraged" ?! If that's not "more of a guideline than a rule" type wording I don't know what is!

I built a "200w" bike for my mum at christmas with a 100% legit kit from an ebike shop - teeny tiny little bafang style front hub motor, baby 14 amp controller and little 5ah 36v battery. It propels the bike along sufficiently to assist a 60 year old woman pedal but that's about it. The wattage measurement with an inline watt meter ? 530w.
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Re: Aussie powered bike laws warning guys!

Post by _Chris_ » Jan 14 2013 10:58pm

Hyena wrote:
_Chris_ wrote:Much to my surprise I discovered yesterday in my area the local boys in blue have been pulling over power assisted bicycles and checking them for compliance to new rules
Urggh, this again...

Did you actually get pulled over on an ebike ?
As has been posted before it's the assholes on petrol "motorised" bikes the cops have it in for - for the reasons posted above.
Unless they're blanket pulling over everything on 2 wheels with no number plate and going over it most ebikes would silently pass by without them even knowing. Assuming you have the common sense to ride past any police presence in a suitable fashion.

Anyway, the old 200w laws are still in place so they can't get you specifically for not complying with the new 250w laws (which are more restrictive despite the supposedly wonderful 50w boost in power they're allowing :roll: )

And even if your bike CAN put out more than 200w who's to say you were using it at the time you were pulled over ? Pedal and they can't stick a thing to you.
I haven't got time to search for the exact wording now but the old RTA website said something about maximum 200w and that motors that can simply be governed or turned down to 200w are discouraged. "Discouraged" ?! If that's not "more of a guideline than a rule" type wording I don't know what is!

I built a "200w" bike for my mum at christmas with a 100% legit kit from an ebike shop - teeny tiny little bafang style front hub motor, baby 14 amp controller and little 5ah 36v battery. It propels the bike along sufficiently to assist a 60 year old woman pedal but that's about it. The wattage measurement with an inline watt meter ? 530w.
Book her Danno :roll:
Awsome i love this forum and from your post it means I can say what I really think about it here. Our laws have a laxative effect on me they give me the S....
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Kepler   1 GW

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Re: Aussie powered bike laws warning guys!

Post by Kepler » Jan 14 2013 11:40pm

One month ago, on the corner of Swanston St and Flinders St, the busiest intersection in Melbourne.

Me on my Stealth Fighter waiting at the lights in peak hour. Suddenly I am flanked by 5 push bike police.

Conversation goes like this:
Police: Nice electric bike. I read those bikes can do 80 kph

Me: (Politely) Thanks, No not this model, its the low powered street version. Its not very quick but great for getting up hills.

Police: I like the suspension, must handle well.

Me: Yes, really smooth comfortable ride.

Lights turn green and we all ride off, me pedaling madly :)

Police: Anyway ride safe and enjoy your ride home.

Bottom line was that the police were a good bunch of blokes. It was obvious they had a fair idea the bike wasn't legal however they weren't interested in hassling someone not doing the wrong thing.

That being said, I am not ignoring the warning in this thread and will be looking at ways to have a switchable compliance mode on the bike including pedelec.
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_Chris_   100 W

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Re: Aussie powered bike laws warning guys!

Post by _Chris_ » Jan 14 2013 11:59pm

Kepler wrote:One month ago, on the corner of Swanston St and Flinders St, the busiest intersection in Melbourne.

Me on my Stealth Fighter waiting at the lights in peak hour. Suddenly I am flanked by 5 push bike police.

Conversation goes like this:
Police: Nice electric bike. I read those bikes can do 80 kph

Me: (Politely) Thanks, No not this model, its the low powered street version. Its not very quick but great for getting up hills.

Police: I like the suspension, must handle well.

Me: Yes, really smooth comfortable ride.

Lights turn green and we all ride off, me pedaling madly :)

Police: Anyway ride safe and enjoy your ride home.

Bottom line was that the police were a good bunch of blokes. It was obvious they had a fair idea the bike wasn't legal however they weren't interested in hassling someone not doing the wrong thing.

That being said, I am not ignoring the warning in this thread and will be looking at ways to have a switchable compliance mode on the bike including pedelec.
lol shh What switch? There is no switch on our bikes, who would do that? Our bikes are legal, they always were..
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Dreddydave   1 W

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Re: Aussie powered bike laws warning guys!

Post by Dreddydave » Jan 15 2013 3:23am

Unless it's labeled as higher than 200 or 250w, how would the police prove it's the same bike/motor you're bringing to the testing business? Impounding someone's bike on "probable cause" could be more of a headache (and paperwork) than the cops would want to deal with. The noisy petrol motors would be harder to hide their size, and I suspect that's what they'd be cracking down on.

Like others in Aus, I'm happy to keep doing the Ghandi "civil disobedience" approach; ride an overpowered bike sensibly.

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Re: Aussie powered bike laws warning guys!

Post by veloman » Jan 15 2013 5:26am

The other day I was on a busy 4 lane road riding with traffic at 31mph on a slight uphill. Good tailwind and I was not pedaling. Cop rolls by me in the left lane without a care.

Now, picture you have a 15mph 250watt law with police who are targeting ebikes. You are hugging the edge of the road with traffic brushing by you at over double your speed. Bad for everyone.

The USA is good for a few things....


BTW, when was the last time someone was hurt by a 'speeding' ebike outside of NYC?
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Re: Aussie powered bike laws warning guys!

Post by t3sla » Jan 15 2013 6:06am

_Chris_ wrote:Much to my surprise I discovered yesterday in my area the local boys in blue have been pulling over power assisted bicycles and checking them for compliance to new rules and since they are not entirely upon technical stuff themselves they send you to a local business that tests these motors andchecks the Kw output on a machine.
If it dont meet new rules your in trouble. Thats what a policeman from highway patrol told me anyway.

Has anyone else come across this? If you haven't I thought I better tell you because it might be coming to a town near you sponsored by state governments :(

In 20 years of riding them this is the first time we have had this. its not good it really takes the fun out of it.

I wonder if it has anything to do with the bogans (rednecks) on eBay 80 CC chinagirl 2 strokes going through residential streets at high speeds without helmets on?
You're lying brah. What state you in NSW?

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_Chris_   100 W

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Re: Aussie powered bike laws warning guys!

Post by _Chris_ » Jan 15 2013 7:13am

......
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Re: Aussie powered bike laws warning guys!

Post by Rodney64 » Jan 15 2013 7:33am

Chris, just go back go the hole you crawled from

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_Chris_   100 W

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Re: Aussie powered bike laws warning guys!

Post by _Chris_ » Jan 15 2013 7:40am

Rodney64 wrote:Chris, just go back go the hole you crawled from
Why? Everyone else in this thread treated me nice I dont get the negative..
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shorza   1 kW

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Re: Aussie powered bike laws warning guys!

Post by shorza » Jan 15 2013 8:13am

Yeah Rodney, what's your problem.

We try and keep or nice on this forum mate.

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t3sla   10 kW

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Re: Aussie powered bike laws warning guys!

Post by t3sla » Jan 15 2013 8:17am

shorza wrote:Yeah Rodney, what's your problem.

We try and keep or nice on this forum mate.
yo shoraza, nice bike!

keep a link to your build thread in ur sig :wink: had to search ur posts to check it out :?
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shorza   1 kW

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Re: Aussie powered bike laws warning guys!

Post by shorza » Jan 15 2013 4:16pm

Thanks t3sla, done.

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Re: Aussie powered bike laws warning guys!

Post by Hyena » Jan 15 2013 5:54pm

Yeah no need to get nasty, Chris wasn't being an arse. I am however curious to know the source of your info Chris.
You said "you discovered" police are targetting ebikes, who'd you hear this from ? Your wording suggests it wasn't you who was pulled over. Was it a friend or someone you know ? Or did you overhear some yobbo on a petrol bike down at the pub talking about how the cops were targeting bikes ? I suspect it may be something more like the latter...
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