Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
d8veh   100 GW

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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by d8veh » Feb 06 2013 5:59am

Kepler wrote:I can guarantee the Neo and the Jumper I looked at didn't have a BPM2 in them. The motor was smaller then a BPM2. Definitely geared and most definitely didn't have any regen.
Have a look at these two pictures. The first is a BH Emotion Neo, the second is a Kudos Tornado that is definitely a BPM2. You have to scroll down to the motor in the second link. Tell me the difference!
http://inhabitat.com/bh-emotion-neo-ele ... lle-motor/
http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electri ... tails.html

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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by adrian_sm » Feb 06 2013 6:24am

Perhaps they have changed motors over time. Here is a photo I took of the bike on display at Eurobike last year, so August 2012.

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 30#p633163
Image
Image
Build #1 ~28kg ~ 700w Avanti Hardtail Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway. ~5500 kms to date. (retired)
Build #2 ~30kg ~2000w Giant AC Dually Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway + 6s10Ah LiPo = 70V. ~15000 kms to date [SOLD]
Build #3 ~13kg ~2000w Commuter Booster <1kg Friction Drive
Build #??? ~21kg ~1500w Adrian's Bafang BPM Hardtail MTB Bafang BPM code12, 15s LiPo, ~40kph, ~30kms

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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by adrian_sm » Feb 06 2013 6:04pm

Build #1 ~28kg ~ 700w Avanti Hardtail Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway. ~5500 kms to date. (retired)
Build #2 ~30kg ~2000w Giant AC Dually Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway + 6s10Ah LiPo = 70V. ~15000 kms to date [SOLD]
Build #3 ~13kg ~2000w Commuter Booster <1kg Friction Drive
Build #??? ~21kg ~1500w Adrian's Bafang BPM Hardtail MTB Bafang BPM code12, 15s LiPo, ~40kph, ~30kms

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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by full-throttle » Feb 06 2013 6:35pm

adrian_sm wrote:Perhaps they have changed motors over time. Here is a photo I took of the bike on display at Eurobike last year, so August 2012.
Image

I think you're right. This is the picture I took at Ausbike end of last year 15 Oct 2012. Def different motors.
Image

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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by swb » Feb 11 2013 2:52am

I believe its a Bafang CST (cassette freewheel)
http://szbaf.com/product.asp?id=2

I have the BH Neo Cross which is like the Jumper but with 700c wheels and only front suspension.
Had it 3 weeks and done 600km.

My previous bike was a eLation mid-drive kit, 200W, which I had many problems with. In fact it put me off kit bikes and I really needed a reliable everyday commuter so managed to justify the higher price of the purpose built Neo.
Its a lot simpler to use with no throttle and pedal assist. Its my first hub drive and it works quite well.
However I have found it hard to get used to the new 250W/25kph regulations as my old eLation kept on powering up to 45kph (helped by the bikes gearing of course)
Now to keep up with most of the others, mainly road bikes, at 35kph I am working pretty hard.
So I am keen to see if there is a way to lift the limit although, as mentioned earlier, the motor may be wound so that it wont give much more anyway.

I was keen on the Jumper but could justify the extra $800 for a 90% commuter.

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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by d8veh » Feb 11 2013 6:42am

The CST motor has screws around the periphery of the side plate the same as the BPM1. The BPM2 has a screw-on side-plate and no screws.
The larger motors in the above photos have no screws, so they're BPM2s. I've no idea what that smaller one is.

Does your motor have the screws?

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Post by Stevef » Feb 12 2013 6:57am

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Last edited by Stevef on Feb 12 2013 4:04pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by Stevef » Feb 12 2013 7:00am

Just a small update....Official from BH sources....the Neo Jumper does not incorporate regenerative braking.They are in the process of updating all their webpages and removing any reference to this feature. It all had to do with a late design change and motor selection to keep it within the EU new rules.

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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by twain » Feb 12 2013 7:51am

Stevef wrote:Just a small update....Official from BH sources....the Neo Jumper does not incorporate regenerative braking.They are in the process of updating all their webpages and removing any reference to this feature. It all had to do with a late design change and motor selection to keep it within the EU new rules.
What new EU rules? I’m not aware of any recent changes to the EU rules that BH could cling to as an excuse for this issue of misleading specification and advertising of their product.

More likely BH realised that they were being found out, and that they could no longer perpetuate the myth of their bikes being capable of regenerative braking.

This is the end result that, quite correctly, had to happen!

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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by Stevef » Feb 12 2013 8:08am

twain wrote:
Stevef wrote:Just a small update....Official from BH sources....the Neo Jumper does not incorporate regenerative braking.They are in the process of updating all their webpages and removing any reference to this feature. It all had to do with a late design change and motor selection to keep it within the EU new rules.
What new EU rules? I’m not aware of any recent changes to the EU rules that BH could cling to as an excuse for this issue of misleading specification and advertising of their product.

More likely BH realised that they were being found out, and that they could no longer perpetuate the myth of their bikes being capable of regenerative braking.

This is the end result that, quite correctly, had to happen!
There was a proposal put forward to relax the power limitations. It was to be voted on in the EU parliament in Feb 2012. It didn't get through obviously and that may have been what BH were caught up in during the design phase.



"......However, the last amended draft from the IMCO Commission of the EU has introduced two features of the definition which are of serious concern, namely: that the power-rating maximum of 250watt should be relaxed to include motors up to 1kw; and that the bicycle does not need to be pedalled for the motor to engage i.e. “twist and go” throttles are to be allowed.
The proposed changes [concern] the Motor Cycles Framework Regulation COM (2010) 542 by the IMCO Commission of the European Parliament. We understand that these proposals are to be voted on by a plenary session of the EU Parliament in February 2012......"

Carlton Ried. Executive Editor. Bike Biz UK. ( website news 21.12.2011)

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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by miro13car » Feb 15 2013 12:24am

[quote="d8veh"]I was informed by the UK importers that the BH Emotion Neo series has the Bafang BPM2 motor, which is geared {quote}.

So it is more or less "off the shelf", nothing propertiary like example Eplus, Falco systems - that is what I mean properiary, no other ebike manufacturer uses it .
so "off the shelf" means to me available to buy and incorporate on production ebike.

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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by d8veh » Feb 15 2013 7:54pm

You're right. You can make your own for about half the price with a kit from BMSbattery and any decent FS bike. It won't have the variable PAS levels, but you can get more power and range witha decent battery.

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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by Kepler » Feb 15 2013 9:50pm

Go to BMSbattery and build basically the same thing. Are you serious?

Sure it has a geared hub motor that's easy to buy but have a closer look at the level of integration of electrics and mountain bike.

More power and range would be nice but its all about balancing acceptable weight against this. Yes most people on this forum can put together a decent kit and out perform this bike, no argument there. The point is just how well BH have integrated the components with a mix of off the shelf parts and proprietary equipment (which there is plenty of on this bike)

Making an ebike look like a normal bike is not a simple task. My Super Commuter project is doing my head in trying to achieve this. I think BH have done a great job of this.

Would I buy one? Well i did seriously considered it and it wasn't the bike that stopped me, just the ridiculous AUST restrictions placed on the bike.
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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by TheBeastie » Feb 15 2013 10:35pm

Yeah I test rode an e-motion 29er style the other day, the sales guy claimed he had been riding one into work every day for the last month or so and was quite enthusiastic about it.
It looked great being a hardcore 29er style and I got that empowered feeling knowing it had a motor driving it.
I was taken by how clean it looked, test riding it felt they had done a good job with a perfectly refined pedal assist gear setup.
But i couldn't help but think that the only was I could justify the $2800 priced tag was if I could unlock the speed limit and felt a demon in me wondering if I could load it with some lipo etc.
Speed Kills Range, 10mph = 46 miles range, 20mph = 20 miles, 30mph = 8 miles rangehttps://goo.gl/1JNL53
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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by liteCycles » Feb 16 2013 8:01pm

Test rode the NEO JUMPER with pedelec. Takes a little over a half of a revolution of the cranks before the assist kicks in. Then when you stop pedaling it is still putting out power for about 1.5 seconds. Don't know if they can tweak this in the configs. As is I would like a throttle better.

Battery case looks totally hands off. Didn't see an easy way to take it apart. I'm sure it could be done but I bet they want their customers NOT to screw with it.

As far a performance goes, your average consumer that hasn't been on a powerful ebike should be happy. But I've built a BPM powered bike that blows this thing away. That battery pack is cool yet a bummer all at the same time.
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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by adrian_sm » Feb 16 2013 11:15pm

liteCycles wrote:Test rode the NEO JUMPER with pedelec. Takes a little over a half of a revolution of the cranks before the assist kicks in. Then when you stop pedaling it is still putting out power for about 1.5 seconds.
When I first hopped on, I just put my foot on the pedal and felt it give a little push.... I didn't see any external cadence sensor at the bottom bracket, so I assume it was just the sensor in the dropout noticing the chain tension change.

I also felt the length of time it kept applying power after you stop pedalling a little too long. And this comes from me who is used to a push button throttle that has ~0.5s delay between releasing the throttle and the power ramping down.

It is definitely a nicely put together bike, and one of the nicest looking e-bikes IMHO. But it still feels a bit intrusive and lazy that it automatically assists when you pedal. Not good if you like to pedal with no assist half the time. I am sure if I played with the settings on the display it would let me turn things off, and back on when I want.
Build #1 ~28kg ~ 700w Avanti Hardtail Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway. ~5500 kms to date. (retired)
Build #2 ~30kg ~2000w Giant AC Dually Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway + 6s10Ah LiPo = 70V. ~15000 kms to date [SOLD]
Build #3 ~13kg ~2000w Commuter Booster <1kg Friction Drive
Build #??? ~21kg ~1500w Adrian's Bafang BPM Hardtail MTB Bafang BPM code12, 15s LiPo, ~40kph, ~30kms

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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by swb » Feb 16 2013 11:33pm

Given the knowledge of these motors on this site, can anyone suggest a way of raising the speed limit, to say the US 20mph (32kph) standard?
While it is currently 25kph in reality its more like 28kph (10% tolerance)
Would be most awesome to take it up, even as little as 5kph would make a significant difference to cruising.
This may take it up the to physical limit of these motors anyway.

The LCD display is very similar to the Bionx and "King Meter" system but the limit adjustment function has been removed from the menu.
I suspect there may be a way to re-program the motor using a USB cable and software.
The motor has the usual round long-pinned connector (same as I have seen on a MP3, but dont know the pinouts)

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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by d8veh » Feb 17 2013 5:26am

I've never seen inside one, but it's probably possible to either hack the controller, or replace it with a Lyen Minimonster. With the Lyen. you'll lose the LCD display and torque sensor, but you gain a throttle and more power. The battery would probably struggle to supply more than 20 amps unless they've got something special in there, and the speed well may be limited by the motor winding.

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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by Kepler » Feb 17 2013 11:44pm

adrian_sm wrote:
I also felt the length of time it kept applying power after you stop pedalling a little too long. And this comes from me who is used to a push button throttle that has ~0.5s delay between releasing the throttle and the power ramping down.
I agree. Even 0.5s feels like a long time for the power to hold on. I have PAS on my Fighter now and with around 1800W. that 0.5s delay can really be a little unnerving at times.
It is definitely a nicely put together bike, and one of the nicest looking e-bikes IMHO. But it still feels a bit intrusive and lazy that it automatically assists when you pedal. Not good if you like to pedal with no assist half the time. I am sure if I played with the settings on the display it would let me turn things off, and back on when I want.
I think you can turn it off and turn down the level of assist also.

Funny, I never thought I would like PAS but I certainly think it has a place now especially on low powered systems.
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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by Samd » Feb 18 2013 12:00am

Awesome writeup Kepler.

Lets get one out on a group ride...
http://ballaratebikes.com/

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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by adrian_sm » Feb 18 2013 12:43am

Kepler wrote:Funny, I never thought I would like PAS but I certainly think it has a place now especially on low powered systems.
I think that is the key. At lower power levels PAS works quite well, but bump up the power level and it needs to be a lot more refined. The trick is this system I believe uses a sensor in the dropout that measures the chain tension essentially. So it is at the mercy of the pedal cadence, which can be down at 60 rpm, or 1Hz. So if this is the only input you have for the PAS, you have to wait roughly 0.5-1 second for the next pedal push to occur, otherwise it would cut the power when it shouldn't. Maybe they should combine it with the BB 12 magnet sensor type thing to detect when people stop pedalling quicker, allowing less delay when you do actually stop.

I definitely would like a very quick on/off type switch to turn off the PAS. It was too annoying when just trying to cruise slowly through crowds.
Build #1 ~28kg ~ 700w Avanti Hardtail Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway. ~5500 kms to date. (retired)
Build #2 ~30kg ~2000w Giant AC Dually Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway + 6s10Ah LiPo = 70V. ~15000 kms to date [SOLD]
Build #3 ~13kg ~2000w Commuter Booster <1kg Friction Drive
Build #??? ~21kg ~1500w Adrian's Bafang BPM Hardtail MTB Bafang BPM code12, 15s LiPo, ~40kph, ~30kms

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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by 2moto » Feb 18 2013 3:04am

I would agree with that. When I went to the ebike show in Europe last year, I tried out just about every bike available for test rides. I can't remember if there was one that didn't have a significant delay. I presume there was, as a torque sensor should be significantly better at prodiving pedal input feedback to the controller. Even so, I was surprised how bad some where.

Be interesting to test whether a multiple magnet setup or a torque sensor would be better at regulating power assist.

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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by Stevef » Feb 25 2013 5:15pm

I have been following the discussion above with a lot of interest. I've had a Jumper for about 4 weeks now and have nothing but praise for the build quality and the design. This is a well balanced bike that handles superbly and is a real blast to ride. I have posted up a lot of pics on a google+ page and also have written numerous ride reports. We are in the middle of summer in New Zealand so we have 6 months lead time on the northern hemisphere to try these out in ideal conditions....

Here's a report of last weekend.....

NEO JUMPER AT KARAPOTI

Down here in the Anitipodes we are at a distinct seasonal advantage given the launch of the Neo Jumper on the approach to a northern hemisphere winter. As far as I know, no one in the north is having the opportunity to give the Jumper a thorough workout in it's designated playground, true off road. So here we go again.........

About half an hour north of where I live is 16,000 hectares of wilderness, a recreational playground that is a blend of native and exotic forest criss-crossed by a total of 178Km of tracks and forestry access roads. It is also the home for New Zealand’s most celebrated mountain bike race, a sort of F1 GP for mountain bikes. You can read about it here:
http://www.karapoti.co.nz/default.asp?PageID=5041

Anyhow as this summer of ours seems to linger on seemingly endlessly I decided to visit the forest park for a debut and see what the fuss was all about. Well, that’s not entirely true. In what seems like a lifetime ago, must be going forty odd years ,I entered a sort of enduro race for off road motorcycles. It was held in the same forest park and it was winter time. There was more mud than the battlefields of Passchendaele. I had this indelibly etched memory of sitting at the bottom of one particular incline and becoming very religious all of a sudden. The race was a killer and that was on a motorcycle.
But today was a sparkling late summer Saturday that was about the eight one in a row without rain. The conditions should be dry and probably dusty, and I was only going in for 10Km. The easy bit. Relatively. The majority of the roads and tracks in this natural adventure park are wide enough for a four wheel drive. You can see the pics here:

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/1107 ... 4607934353

(NB: photos are Google Earth enabled. Click on the photo, then click on photo details, then click on the map)

I had built up a reasonably good picture of the Jumper’s capability over the past couple of weeks with the off road experiences of this new mountain eBike. So I wasn’t sure what else to expect besides endorsing my favourable opinions and perhaps discovering some previously unearthed flaw or limitation. With the track being dry and wide the speeds were much faster than I had previously been off road. I found myself glancing at the speedo fleetingly on a few occasions and noted the speed at 18- 24 kph. It seemed effortless to maintain this even amongst the loose surface of randomly sized rocks and gravel. I was also climbing. I had not expected to find the amount of residual surface water that was present after such a prolonged dry spell. There were full track width ponds and puddles scattered about every 50 metres or so on the average uphill entrance track. Most likely due to the permanent shade from the rain forest cover and the constant runoff from the surrounding steep countryside. This went on for about 4 kms and seemed like forever. Not having mudguards and being mentally unprepared to jump into mudbaths for the heck of it, most of the water hazards, if you can call them that, were ridden around the edges at speed. This is what impressed me immensely with the Jumper’s handling. The front frame geometry, head angle and trail, is ideally suited to this type of riding. Additionally I think that maintaining the speed on the incline enhances the stability, something you can never do on a conventional bike. The front wheel stays more on track and provided you can keep up momentum then transferring weight forward is a certain asset to the steering and stability without loosing traction. It is the torque that brings this bike into a league of it’s own. After a few wobbly slow attempts at negotiating the ponds around the edges I tackled the next lot of them at speed, in the range of 18-22kph, backing off slightly on the approach then punching the pedals for a torque surge that carried you around a very narrow edge of dry gravel and down onto the track lining up for the next puddle.
The remainder of the ride was unremarkable except for the grandeur of the forest. It wasn’t until the return ride that I then realized how steep the incline was. I would guess 10%. It probably doesn’t sound much within the context of hills that can be encountered, but it didn’t have clear unobstructed path up the middle which adds to the burden of ascending any incline in the dirt.
I am more than convinced now that the Continental 2.4 tyres are making a considerable contribution to the stability and handling off road. I run these at about 30psi.
There was one hiccup before I got back to the car park. Towards the end of the ride, about 500metres before the car park there is sudden drop of about 4 metres down into a stream and the same sudden steep bank up the opposite side. Smack bang in the middle of the straightest path is a large rock so you have to go either side. It caught me unawares going in and I automatically steered the Jumper to the right which was where the fresh tyre tracks were. I had the wrong gear selected so ended up pushing out and up the other side. On the return, being prepared, I took the straighter path which was the opposite side of the rock. Being pumped up with confidence from the downhill dash zigzagging around puddles I backed off only slightly. This meant I hit the stream at a fair whack and probably faster than I should have. I am sure the suspension bottomed out on the rear. My momentum carried me up the other side but the torque was missing. Two more pedal pumps was enough to tell me the Jumper had switched off. The LCD was still on display, no faults showing, so I turned it on and off a couple of times, but still there was no life. I pedaled back to the car with no assist, which also made me realize that unassisted mountain bikes are really no fun at all. At least not for me.
The bike would still roll in walking mode but was definitely not working under pedal load. A couple of hours later after a wash and rinse and wipe down I tried it again in my driveway. No problem, all working. So to now, I still am unsure what happened. Perhaps there is a safety cutout with sharp jolts to the rear, but you would expect it to show a fault. I don’t know.
Needless to say this is yet another great experience on a remarkable bike.

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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by full-throttle » Mar 06 2013 4:40am

Met another e-motion rider tonight. He's already on ES, but doesn't use it much. Seems to be happy with the bike, except the pedal assist speed limiting :twisted:

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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by spinningmagnets » Mar 06 2013 12:48pm

The front frame geometry, head angle and trail, is ideally suited to this type of riding
I haven't been able to find any precise numbers describing the head-angle and trail of the forks. I could roughly guess at it from looking at the pictures, but if you have that info handy I'd appreciate it.

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