Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by Melbourne » Mar 08 2013 6:19am

full-throttle wrote:Met another e-motion rider tonight. He's already on ES, but doesn't use it much. Seems to be happy with the bike, except the pedal assist speed limiting :twisted:

Hi full-throttle ...

LOL.. that would be me... Small World! Nice bike you have there... very clean and stealthy.

Yes 32kph speed limiter is very frustrating... i like to tag along in a commuter group ride to work and the group are going at 35+kph. I struggle to keep up with them.
1. BH Neo Xtrem
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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by Melbourne » Mar 08 2013 6:30am

d8veh wrote:I've never seen inside one, but it's probably possible to either hack the controller, or replace it with a Lyen Minimonster. With the Lyen. you'll lose the LCD display and torque sensor, but you gain a throttle and more power. The battery would probably struggle to supply more than 20 amps unless they've got something special in there, and the speed well may be limited by the motor winding.
hi d8veh

I read a lot of your post on ES and pedelec UK...very interesting read when i was researching to build my own ebike but opted for Neo Xtrem because i want a reliable commute ebike. but now i find the 32kph speed limiter to be annoying.... So do you think is possible to upgrade the battery to a 48V battery and make the bike go faster???? I am sure the BPM hub and the controller 36v 25amp will accept 48v but not sure the LCD/torque sensor will take 48v??
1. BH Neo Xtrem
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3. Cannondale Bad Boy bbs02 750W 48v15Ah
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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by d8veh » Mar 08 2013 10:38am

I can only guess what's possible because I haven't seen inside one.

The battery will be a problem because it's built into the frame, which doesn't leave any room for more cells. The next thing we'd need to know would be the motor winding speed, whether it's that that limits top speed or the controller/panel software. If it cuts off suddenly, it's more likely to be the software, but I'd be surprised if it did more than 40kph even if you could hack the limit. To test the motor speed, you'd need a spare 36v controller and throttle to do a no-load speed test. Any one will do as long as you only test with the wheel off the ground. Use a bicycle computer to check the wheel speed. You only have to put the magnet on the spoke. You can hold the sensor in the right position yo get a speed reading. Once you have the motor speed, you'll know whether you've got a chance of achieving anything with a new controller. You could in the meantime get a photo of the controller so that we know what it is.

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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by Melbourne » Mar 08 2013 5:50pm

d8veh wrote:I can only guess what's possible because I haven't seen inside one.

The battery will be a problem because it's built into the frame, which doesn't leave any room for more cells. The next thing we'd need to know would be the motor winding speed, whether it's that that limits top speed or the controller/panel software. If it cuts off suddenly, it's more likely to be the software, but I'd be surprised if it did more than 40kph even if you could hack the limit. To test the motor speed, you'd need a spare 36v controller and throttle to do a no-load speed test. Any one will do as long as you only test with the wheel off the ground. Use a bicycle computer to check the wheel speed. You only have to put the magnet on the spoke. You can hold the sensor in the right position yo get a speed reading. Once you have the motor speed, you'll know whether you've got a chance of achieving anything with a new controller. You could in the meantime get a photo of the controller so that we know what it is.
BH Neo have 48v version of the frame battery for another model... that might fit.(???)

The speed is gradually cutoff and stop at 32kph. I believe BPM is torque version, very good at climbing hills and matches the MAC 10T top speed of 32-35kph. The controller 36v 22amp electronic is encase in resins, there is a picture from france forum

http://cyclurba.fr/forum/145214/d-bride ... &pageprec=
1. BH Neo Xtrem
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3. Cannondale Bad Boy bbs02 750W 48v15Ah
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full-throttle   10 MW

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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by full-throttle » Mar 08 2013 7:24pm

Yeah, was good bumping into each other on the path.

With the speed limit - I'd try a different controller and see how fast the motor really is. Or you could try reverse engineer it and disable the speed limit function.

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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by d8veh » Mar 09 2013 8:06am

Melbourne wrote:
BH Neo have 48v version of the frame battery for another model... that might fit.(???)

The speed is gradually cutoff and stop at 32kph. I believe BPM is torque version, very good at climbing hills and matches the MAC 10T top speed of 32-35kph. The controller 36v 22amp electronic is encase in resins, there is a picture from france forum

http://cyclurba.fr/forum/145214/d-bride ... &pageprec=
From the photos, the battery looks the same, which is surprising because I'd expect it to be 33% bigger. To do a 48v upgrade, you'd probably need the battery, controller and maybe the panel,which would be rather expensive. You might be able to do it with the battery and a different controller. I can't see it's size,connections and how it fits from those photos.

I just watched a sales video, and the guy mentioned the "electronically limited" motor, which, if he knows what he's talking about, implies that the controller's limiting the speed; however, he also extols the virtues of its regen, so he probably knows nothing.

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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by Mazza » Mar 26 2013 8:25pm

Melbourne wrote: Yes 32kph speed limiter is very frustrating... i like to tag along in a commuter group ride to work and the group are going at 35+kph. I struggle to keep up with them.
Hi all,

I am a recent forum inductee and have recently purchased a BH Neo Jumper. Absolutely love the bike and with a few small changes it is fantastic for my 26km round trip commute (Marathon Plus Tour 1.75 x 26" tyres making the biggest difference). The only thing that irks me is the speed limiter. It seems like just when you're getting going, the assistance stops! It's fantastic for going up hills, but my entire commute is on the flat. Does anyone know if there is an easy way to remove the speed limiter (or even 'trick' it) so that assistance continues past 30km/h? Even 35 would be good! I am a newbie to electric bikes but don't mind doing a bit of tinkering here and there and I'm slowly learning basic electronics.

The only thing I don't want to do is make any irreversible changes just yet, as the bike is under warranty for 2 years.

Help in this matter would be greatly appreciated!

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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by full-throttle » Mar 26 2013 8:30pm

Welcome to the forum.

The speed limit is definitely annoying to some.

This morning I met yet another e-motion user on the way to work. He is very happy with it and sounded like he has done a bit of research and testing. The main reason for getting an ebike for him was recovery from heart surgery.

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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by competitions » Mar 26 2013 9:53pm

specs say 90kms on 9A...

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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by Mazza » Mar 26 2013 10:59pm

G'day Full-Throttle. Thanks for the welcome message!

Sounds like the bloke recovering from heart surgery is on the right track. Great to hear!

Yes, speed limiter certainly is frustrating! I still love the bike, but a little more top end would be perfect. Don't want to break any land speed records or anything! :mrgreen:

We (collective members/e-motion owners on Whirlpool) have already done some research and testing regarding the speed limiter, such as changing the wheel size (I don't believe anyone thought it would be that simple, but it was worth a try right?!) in the hope of 'tricking' the controller, but this was fruitless. A 48V battery looks as though it'd require a 48V controller & LCD which would likely void the bike's warranty & result in significant extra costs to buy the items in the first place. Also it (48V controller) probably has a speed limiter attached as well. I guess another way around it would be to just buy an aftermarket controller & cycle analyst, but if there was a simpler way it'd be great!

competitions: Yeah, I don't reckon you'd get the full 90ks out of a single charge that's for sure! :D

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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by d8veh » Mar 27 2013 4:37am

I've been thinking about the speed limit. If you can feel the power cut at the limit rather than just tailing off gradually, it won't be the motor winding that's limiting the soeed. It must be the controller or panel.

Something must be measuring the speed. The crude way of doing it is with a magnet on the wheel, but I've been studying photos and I can't see any magnets, so the other possibility is that the controller is using one of the hall sensor pulses, which would make it hard to hack, other than that it can probably be done by software if you can find a way in. Otherwise you need a new controller and panel.

I can't understand why the wheel-size wouldn't make a difference to the speed limit. This implies that the speed sensor is not on the back wheel, so have a look on the front wheel and see if you can see anything and report back.

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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by Mazza » Mar 27 2013 6:19am

Thanks for the response d8veh. From what you have said, it may be the motor winding (as it's reasonably gradual in the way the power tapers off - I'm still learning about this stuff) and there certainly isn't anything to do with speed sensing on the front wheel as I changed the tyres as soon as I bought the bike and looked on the inside of the rim, as well as around it.

We were originally thinking that you could possibly trick the sensor by telling it the wheel size was different, thereby the cut off being later (or earlier, depending on if a larger or smaller wheel is chosen) but it just ended up making the speedo read inaccurately. In fact from what I have been told (and what I have seen myself), the speedo is not entirely accurate anyway as I have been logging my rides with Strava.

From what you have said it seems possible that the speed is being read from the hall sensor pulses, but I am not sure where this hall sensor is or how to modify the signal.

Worst case scenario, when warranty runs out the bike is a good base on which to install a higher powered motor/controller etc. :)
Last edited by Mazza on Mar 27 2013 6:24am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by pjgold » Mar 27 2013 6:23am

After having a bit of a chat with Kepler I recently bought myself a Neo Cross as well and so far I must say I am loving it.
Yes the limiter is a bit of a pain however on the plus side I can see it helping to extend the range, my round trip commute is 54 km I am doing this in standard mode weighing 90kg with a single charge.
On close inspection the motor is definitely the Bafang CST mine even has CST stamped on the side, interestingly it even has a little 700c sticker on indicating that the motor has been set up for that wheel size some how.
The information here http://szbaf.com/product.asp?id=2 says it a 270 rpm motor so it should max out at 35 kph in a 700c http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 28&t=16114. I know I can feel assistance on mine right up to about 32 kph as reported by almost everybody, perhaps this is max and there is not really a limiter?

All said and done its a great bike and unless software is made available to reprogram it for off road then for me I don't think its worth while chasing ways to disable the limiter.

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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by Punx0r » Mar 27 2013 8:48am

To find out if it's the motor winding that's limiting the speed just test it's no load speed. You just need a regular bicycle speedo. Your max road speed will be about 70% of the no load speed.

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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by Mazza » Mar 27 2013 9:19pm

Thanks Punx0r. Will give that a go. So you put the bike up on a stand, back wheel in the air, run the motor with a regular bike speedo attached and see what it gets to before cutout?

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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by pjgold » Mar 27 2013 10:34pm

The Aus version of the bike has no throttle its pedlec only due to our laws.

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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by t3sla » Mar 27 2013 10:38pm

Does the unit have a magnet on the spokes which sense speed?

If so can someone please remove it and see what it does, thanks :P
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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by Punx0r » Mar 28 2013 6:13am

Mazza, that should work, I think

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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by Stevef » Mar 28 2013 4:08pm

EASY MOTION SPEED ISSUES
I originally mooted the idea on the whirlpool forum that a wheel diameter change may fool the controller into accepting a different speed signal and change its speed limiting commands. it was wishful thinking and of course didn't work. When I tested this theory on my Neo Jumper I had two speedos, the LCD and my iPhone with a speedo app. The LCD speed certainly changed but the phone speedo, which I first calibrated against the LCD under normal conditions, recorded the same max speed I could get as before I started fiddling around.
So what this tells me is that the device, whatever it is, that senses the bikes speed across the ground, sends its data independently to two destinations. The LCD and the controller. The speed data recieved by the LCD is only used for changing the displayed speed in the event of a wheel diameter change.

There are absolutely no wires going to and from the front wheel so that can have nothing to do with speed control. There are no magnets on the spokes that I can see, so I think the speed controll data is sent from the motor that is revolving at the same rate as the wheel. That means the controllers are specific for the wheel size. So my Neo Jumper has a controller that is set specifically for a 26inch wheel, probably by some sort of firmware?
The LCD is a generic device that is used on the range of bikes regardless of whel diameter, which is whynit has a wheel size changing function. makes sense and keeps the cost down.

I personally have no issue with the current speed limitation. In fact you would need to change the gearing if you wanted to go faster. The last time I coasted down a hill at 42kph I tried to pedal and see if I could keep up. Hopeless, my legs were spinning like speedy gonzales with his legs in a blur.

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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by Melbourne » Mar 28 2013 5:54pm

Stevef wrote:EASY MOTION SPEED ISSUES
I originally mooted the idea on the whirlpool forum
welcome to ES steve.
lol... looks like we have the whole Whirlpool gang on endless sphere.
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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by Kepler » Mar 28 2013 6:32pm

I am pleased my original post has promoted some great discussion on this bike. Speed measurement is an interesting one. Seeing its a geared hub, you cant use halls and pole count to measure speed due to it free wheeling under no load. I have seen mention of a GPS within the controller. Not sure if this is just a bit of advertising hype but perhaps it is the mechanism to measure speed on this bike.

Personally I believe that a software flash is going to be the most likely way to remove the limit however I dont think it will assist much further then 30kph if the calculated top speed is 35kph. I would speak to the Melbourne dealer. They did indicate that they were getting the programming equipment but I am also tipping they wont be too keen on advertising the fact that they can do it.

BTW, I believe the controller has a button throttle that allows you to accelerate to 6kph without pedalling. Handy for getting off the mark when you come to a stop in the wrong gear.
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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by Stevef » Mar 29 2013 5:52pm

The GPS in the controller sounds a bit fanciful. Perhaps if someone has a long tunnel on their ride or commute they could try it out. The GPS won't get a signal and you should be able to blast along as fast as your legs can spin.
As for the button throttle, I have nick named this the "walking mode". A life saver on off road tracks when you get to an impossible bank or incline you need to get up. Just make sure you have good shoes and get a footing because the bike does the pulling rather than you doing the pushing. What it means is, that you have to be ready to walk 6kph up a bank and you wont have time to bed your feet in.

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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by Mazza » Mar 30 2013 9:19pm

Cheers for the input SteveF & Kepler. I don't think it'll be too long before a workaround is found. I am not keen on doing anything permanent until the bike is out of warranty, but something reversible (such as a flash update) would be fantastic! As mentioned, even 35km/h before cutout would be great.

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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by Katlluvia » Apr 08 2013 6:03pm

In response to Spinning Magnets about frame geometry, here is a capture with the info in the lower left. I purchased the Neo Jumper (US version) and will report back later this spring to anyone interested on ES.
Attachments
neo jumper geometry.jpg

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Re: Tested an e-motion Jumper today. Impressive

Post by d8veh » Apr 12 2013 10:16am

I went to a show at the weekend, where they had a range of BH Emotion bikes to try. There's three different motors now. I think one is a Dapush Japanese motor, but I'm not sure. It had about the same power and torque as the bigger BPM.

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