Qulbix Raptor ebike + frame kit

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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Re: Torque Raptor ebike + frame kit

Post by Offroader » Dec 25 2013 3:28am

Rix, I have issues tensioning the prowheel and having loose spokes.

I am using 11/12 gauge spokes. These should be better than using straight 11 gauge as the 12 gauge should stretch more and keep spokes from loosening.

First attempt at 11/12, I tightened those up pretty tight. After my first ride I had spokes loosening, but not completely loose. I then retensioned the spokes really tight. Tighter than I made the 13 gauge spokes which I tensioned them so high they broke. This time I went for another ride and some spokes loosened a bit and I will have to tighten them up.

After my ride today I think some spokes need to be tightened again. However, not as much as the first attempt.

What I do notice is that I use alternating spokes and the spokes on the inside get loose faster. It seems that these spokes are more straight when they connect into the nipple and I wonder if that is the reason.

Maybe the spokes loosening up a bit is normal as I don't stress relieve the spokes while tensioning? Maybe I am simply not applying enough tension for 11/12 gauge spokes?

I am going to retension them again and this time I will make them even tighter than last time. This is why I recommend that everyone check spoke tension after every ride! It seems these short spoke lengths make for a spoke that doesn't stretch much and is easily loosened.

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Re: Torque Raptor ebike + frame kit

Post by voicecoils » Dec 25 2013 4:59am

Offroader wrote:Rix, I have issues tensioning the prowheel and having loose spokes.

I am using 11/12 gauge spokes. These should be better than using straight 11 gauge as the 12 gauge should stretch more and keep spokes from loosening.

First attempt at 11/12, I tightened those up pretty tight. After my first ride I had spokes loosening, but not completely loose. I then retensioned the spokes really tight. Tighter than I made the 13 gauge spokes which I tensioned them so high they broke. This time I went for another ride and some spokes loosened a bit and I will have to tighten them up.

After my ride today I think some spokes need to be tightened again. However, not as much as the first attempt.

What I do notice is that I use alternating spokes and the spokes on the inside get loose faster. It seems that these spokes are more straight when they connect into the nipple and I wonder if that is the reason.

Maybe the spokes loosening up a bit is normal as I don't stress relieve the spokes while tensioning? Maybe I am simply not applying enough tension for 11/12 gauge spokes?

I am going to retension them again and this time I will make them even tighter than last time. This is why I recommend that everyone check spoke tension after every ride! It seems these short spoke lengths make for a spoke that doesn't stretch much and is easily loosened.
Next time they are tightened, apply a mild loctite to the spoke/threads threads, this will help keep the nipple from unwinding and let you isolate whether the wheel going loose is due to lack of proper seating / stress relieving or lack of tension allowing nipples to unwind.

If your spokes are long enough to fit the Park tension meter in (least expensive meter that works reasonably well) than it's a good investment to give you data to inform wheel building decisions.

Another thing to to remember is that a dry spoke & nipple thread + rim's nipple seat will feel like it's at high tension prematurely. You'll want to really well lubricate everything to reduce friction and let you smoothly build up to a decent tension.

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Rix   100 GW

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Re: Torque Raptor ebike + frame kit

Post by Rix » Dec 25 2013 9:40am

Offroader wrote:Rix, I have issues tensioning the prowheel and having loose spokes.

I am using 11/12 gauge spokes. These should be better than using straight 11 gauge as the 12 gauge should stretch more and keep spokes from loosening.

First attempt at 11/12, I tightened those up pretty tight. After my first ride I had spokes loosening, but not completely loose. I then retensioned the spokes really tight. Tighter than I made the 13 gauge spokes which I tensioned them so high they broke. This time I went for another ride and some spokes loosened a bit and I will have to tighten them up.

After my ride today I think some spokes need to be tightened again. However, not as much as the first attempt.

What I do notice is that I use alternating spokes and the spokes on the inside get loose faster. It seems that these spokes are more straight when they connect into the nipple and I wonder if that is the reason.

Maybe the spokes loosening up a bit is normal as I don't stress relieve the spokes while tensioning? Maybe I am simply not applying enough tension for 11/12 gauge spokes?

I am going to retension them again and this time I will make them even tighter than last time. This is why I recommend that everyone check spoke tension after every ride! It seems these short spoke lengths make for a spoke that doesn't stretch much and is easily loosened.
Next time they are tightened, apply a mild loctite to the spoke/threads threads, this will help keep the nipple from unwinding and let you isolate whether the wheel going loose is due to lack of proper seating / stress relieving or lack of tension allowing nipples to unwind.

If your spokes are long enough to fit the Park tension meter in (least expensive meter that works reasonably well) than it's a good investment to give you data to inform wheel building decisions.

Another thing to to remember is that a dry spoke & nipple thread + rim's nipple seat will feel like it's at high tension prematurely. You'll want to really well lubricate everything to reduce friction and let you smoothly build up to a decent tension.
Just in case you didn't know, Voice Coils is a wheel smith and knows wheel builds very very well. In addition to what he said, after you tension your spokes, back the tension off just a tiny bit, like a 1/16th turn out, after tensioning, this will unload the "twist" tension at the hub flange as well. I have never used a tension meter, I can tell by sound and feel and be close to the ball park, even though each individual spoke tension will vary more by not using a tension meter. By wheel smiths standards, this would be deemed kind of half assed. Having clarified that, from what you are describing , this actually sounds normal to me, on my 3rd ebike wheel that I laced up. For the first few rides, I was tightening and truing every time. Like you said, each time though, the spoke wouldn't be as loose as before and I tightened them less. Eventually they get to the point where the spokes quit stretching and they just take a set. Once this happens, the amount of spokes loosening practically drops to zero. Every once in a while, I will find one that loosens up a little during my preventative maintenance inspection (PMI), but its rare after the spokes have taken set.

VC, thanks for the tip about the locktite and oil. I didn't think of that on my wheel builds but it makes since if I put a dab of locktight on the spoke threads and a drop of oil between the nipple head and rim spoke hole seat. I will do this on my up and coming 5405 and the Tagasko 18x1.85 rim.

Rick

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Re: Torque Raptor ebike + frame kit

Post by Offroader » Dec 25 2013 12:29pm

Thanks for the tips, with the Loctite, wouldn't I have to apply it before I inserted the spoke into the nipple?
I already put never seize on each spoke thread. I can't see how the Loctite can be applied after the spoke is tightened.

I was thinking about possibly applying white out to a side of each nipple and spoke to see which ones are turning loose.

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Re: Torque Raptor ebike + frame kit

Post by Rix » Dec 25 2013 3:39pm

You could back out each spoke 4 turns or and put some locktite on and tighten up again, that would get some of the thread lock where it needs to be, time consuming though, figure about a minute per spoke. You could mark the spokes to see if which ones were coming loose, but eventually they will take a set and stop anyways. Whether they come loose or not doesn't' matter because the spokes need to be checked and tightened periodically anyways. But if you must know by glancing, marking the spoke is the only way to do it.


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Re: Torque Raptor ebike + frame kit

Post by Kepler » Dec 25 2013 4:19pm

You can also apply the locktite after the wheel is built with good results using a super wick in compound. http://www.gasweld.com.au/29020a-loctite.html. This type of locktite penetrates the assembled thread using a capillary action. My local wheel builder uses this method.
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Re: Torque Raptor ebike + frame kit

Post by voicecoils » Dec 25 2013 6:31pm

Kepler wrote:You can also apply the locktite after the wheel is built with good results using a super wick in compound. http://www.gasweld.com.au/29020a-loctite.html. This type of locktite penetrates the assembled thread using a capillary action. My local wheel builder uses this method.
Yes as Kepler said, you'll want a wicking type so you can apply after. DT Swiss makes a dedicated product called Spoke Freeze but it's expensive at $25 for 10ml! I use it with good results (applied after the wheel is built) and if you started with well oiled spoke threads then the Spoke Freeze's locking strength is low enough to allow the wheel to be serviced down the track. If you build the wheel dry then spoke freeze the bond is strong enough to make turning the nipples at all difficult later on. http://www.wheelbuilder.com/dt-swiss-spoke-freeze.html

The traditional choice was boiled linseed oil (mentioned in most wheel building books) which lubricates initially and provides mild locking strength for the finished wheel.

Rix's point about spoke twist is good too. If you lightly grip the spoke with your fingers as you turn the nipple with your tool, you can feel any twist that might be happening. With good lubrication spoke twist during building is also reduced.

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Re: Torque Raptor ebike + frame kit

Post by Offroader » Jan 01 2014 11:11pm

Posted a couple of videos of driving my Torque Raptor.
One of them is stairs.

Speedometer is in MPH. Stair video is in KM/H
Remember 30MPH = 48 KM/H

Bike is incredible and the motorcycle seat makes it much easier to drive fast off-road and corner at speed. I tend to sit down and get low when traveling fast off-road. It just feels more secure and stable doing that, something that I wouldn't do with a bicycle seat. I of course stand when I drive on very rough terrain or about to hit a curb.

The raptor brings Ebiking to a whole new level. You can do so much more compared to a converted bicycle ebike. I started to climb stairs and drive down them now where ever I find them. I am looking for places to start learning to do drops, I want to be able to do 5 to 10 foot drops with the bike. No place to do jumps in an urban area. Everything is up in the air when you have a bike like this. Plus the bike is built so heavy duty that I am not worried the least about anything breaking. Basically this bike is the ultimate urban assault bike and makes beating it around an urban environment a whole new fun thing to do with an ebike.

It is a dream having the batteries enclosed in the center and not worrying about them or damaging them. The hydraulic breaks makes it so much easier to handle the bike now with a 1 finger brake lever. With my old rim brakes I had to take my hand off of the throttle to brake, now I don't have to do that.

Because of the amount of power I am pushing with this bike, I am very glad that I have room to add in a lot more battery packs. Right now I believe the bike has as much battery capacity as a stealth bomber, around 1600 watt hours. I will eventually want to up it to at least 2600 watt hours. When you drive as hard as I do, you need all the battery capacity you can get.

I am fully comfortable with the bike to the point I don't even feel it beneath me anymore. The bike is perfectly balanced and just tears through anything. The 26" razor back tire and Prowheel 19" shinko 241 dirt bike tire take a beating with how hard I hit curbs and stairs without any issues other than occasion loose spokes on the prowheel, which I'm working on fixing that problem.

At the end of the stair video when I climbed the steep set of stairs about 17 steps in total, towards the end of the stair climb my 4000 watts power was just enough to get me to the top. Seems like you would want a lot more power to climb really long stairs. However, most stairs are not as long as those.




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Re: Torque Raptor ebike + frame kit

Post by Rix » Jan 01 2014 11:37pm

Right now I believe the bike has as much battery capacity as a stealth bomber, around 1600 watt hours. I will eventually want to up it to at least 2600 watt hours. When you drive as hard as I do, you need all the battery capacity you can get.
Great vids Offroader, really appreciate the time you took to post. I think your battery compartment on the Raptor is bigger than the Bomber. I have 350mmx120mmx160mm. The pics of the Raptor look larger than that. Maybe not quiet as long but much wider and at least as tall. You got me thinking maybe I need to order the Stealth Hurrican seat for my Bomber the way you talk about the MC seat. And clearly by your vids, you are comfortable and confident with the way your Raptor is working for you. Very nice indeed.

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Re: Torque Raptor ebike + frame kit

Post by sacko » Jan 02 2014 3:59am

Cool videos :)

What equipment do you have that allows you to show Speed and GPS position on the video?

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Re: Torque Raptor ebike + frame kit

Post by snellemin » Jan 02 2014 11:37am

Nice videos. I would probably need body armor before trying to cruise down stairwells like you do.
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Re: Torque Raptor ebike + frame kit

Post by zombiess » Jan 02 2014 4:04pm

snellemin wrote:Nice videos. I would probably need body armor before trying to cruise down stairwells like you do.
As I am learning, a good bike setup and suspension makes things that previous seemed difficult much more attainable. It's about committing, knowing your equipments limits and more importantly your own limits. Good equipment lets you push your own limits further because it adds confidence.

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Re: Torque Raptor ebike + frame kit

Post by Offroader » Jan 02 2014 4:43pm

Driving down steps is fairly easy, its driving up them that is much harder. Easiest thing to do is to practice small and work your way up. Don't go too steep at first. I hit a really steep set of stairs and felt like I nose dived after the last step.

Driving up those long steps looks a lot easier than it is. I was only able to do a couple of those long steps at first before driving into the hand rail. However, with practice it got a lot easier.

Your rear rim will take a beating while practicing steps. You will have to check tension every ride. Those steps are why I broke 11 13 gauge spokes. You get 1 loose spoke and your doomed. 11/12 gauge spokes seem to last though if you get a loose spoke.
I also would not try steps with the raptor with a rear bicycle tire, you will surely pinch flat. You need a dirt bike wheel. In order to get the momentum to climb them you have to really bash that rear rim on the first step.

Having a high bottom bracket is helpful, that is why I commend the builder of the raptor for making it a 13.2" bottom bracket height. Make sure to keep your front tire a 26" on the raptor and bring the rear up (by adjusting shock height) to get high ground clearance.

With all that said doing stairs is probably the most rewarding experience you can have with an ebike.

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Re: Torque Raptor ebike + frame kit

Post by snellemin » Jan 02 2014 10:18pm

I'm more "careful" as I'm getting older. I use to go down stairs with my regular bikes, but for some reason I'm just thinking twice about doing it with my ebikes. I have no problem with the retention ponds with the steep walls though.
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Re: Torque Raptor ebike + frame kit

Post by Qulbix » Jan 13 2014 12:56am

Offroader, great videos! I've shared them on our FB, I hope you don't mind :)
sacko wrote:What equipment do you have that allows you to show Speed and GPS position on the video?
I was wondering that as well - what app did you use to show speedometer?
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Re: Torque Raptor ebike + frame kit

Post by Offroader » Jan 13 2014 7:27pm

Trying to learn how to do drops on this bike. I am taking them small and working my way up higher. Probably went a bit too high with this one.

I did a 5 foot drop and ran into a little problem.. Wrists hurt a bit afterwards and back still hurts a bit. I have to obviously change how I approach drops. I think I have to land more evenly or pick up more speed.
I must have landed with my front tire first. It didn't help that I was scared right before I did this particular drop.

Lucky I had an allen key with me that I needed to tune my shock to move the throttle and was able to twist the rear brake lever to drive home. Handlebar wouldn't move. Maybe I was lucky the handlebar bent/twisted like that because it must have taken some force off of my wrists, as my wrists really stung form the impact.


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Re: Torque Raptor ebike + frame kit

Post by Scott » Jan 13 2014 7:44pm

Offroader wrote:I did a 5 foot drop and ran into a little problem.. Wrists hurt a bit afterwards and back still hurts a bit. I have to obviously change how I approach drops. I think I have to land more evenly or pick up more speed.
I must have landed with my front tire first. It didn't help that I was scared right before I did this particular drop.
I did something similar in my back yard right before I converted my bike to electric. On my first jump I did not have enough speed and did not pull up on the bars at all. I thought I was going over the bars on the first jump.

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Re: Torque Raptor ebike + frame kit

Post by Rix » Jan 13 2014 9:12pm

Offroader wrote:Trying to learn how to do drops on this bike. I am taking them small and working my way up higher. Probably went a bit too high with this one.

I did a 5 foot drop and ran into a little problem.. Wrists hurt a bit afterwards and back still hurts a bit. I have to obviously change how I approach drops. I think I have to land more evenly or pick up more speed.
I must have landed with my front tire first. It didn't help that I was scared right before I did this particular drop.

Lucky I had an allen key with me that I needed to tune my shock to move the throttle and was able to twist the rear brake lever to drive home. Handlebar wouldn't move. Maybe I was lucky the handlebar bent/twisted like that because it must have taken some force off of my wrists, as my wrists really stung form the impact.

]

"Oh Shit" yep, that was appropriate for the circumstances. At least you didn't crash. :mrgreen:

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Re: Torque Raptor ebike + frame kit

Post by snellemin » Jan 14 2014 1:10am

That was a crazy mishap Offroader. I can't imagine would could of happened if the handlebar actually broke during the fall.
So far I have only fallen once with the bike. There was fine sand on the concrete trail and the bike just slid out from under me in a turn. I flew and rolled off the fall. Camelback took a beating, but helmet didn't get a scratch. However, my rear brake adapter got closer to the brake rotor and started rubbing bad. Must of bent the dropout in a bit. So now I have to find me a new adapter and make it work for me.

The TR is so stable at high speed. My bike accelerates really quickly to 40mph and I'm liking the longer wheelbase vs my other bikes. I commuted to work today with Raptor. The ride was more comfortable vs my EVG when I didn't pedal. I'm still getting used to the motos seat. My EVG is stable at high speeds, accelerates well, easier to pedal, but it sure isn't beast like the Raptor.

Anybody else using cruise control feature with their CA V3? I like it better vs the old style cruise control wired into the controller. The CA just seamlessly engages cruise control. I don't feel any speed fluctuations when riding over uneven pavement at speed.
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Re: Torque Raptor ebike + frame kit

Post by Offroader » Jan 14 2014 4:11am

Snellemin, when you dropped the raptor did any of the frame get scratched? I want to apply some of that clear paint film to areas that will rub if the bike is dropped. I am not sure if any of the main frame will make contact with the ground.

I wonder if you really bent the dropouts. The dropouts are 10mm thick steel and get pinched together when you tighten the axle down. Everything should line up. I would think you probably bent the brake rotor?

That sucks about sliding out on the sand. I have been lucky so far and have not dropped this bike yet but had a very close call with some wet mud on concrete at the end of some steps, but I was lucky to have slid into an area that had no mud and regained control. I think the reason why I have been lucky so far is that I have knobby tires. I've slid a few times over grass and dirt and the bike just slid a bit but held up nicely. If I had tires like those carzy bobs that you use I would have lost the bike for sure. I know because I used maxxis holly rollers and they don't have very good traction at all, but are better than slicks.

You really should consider upgrading to the prowheel and shinko 241 tire and use a 26" knobby up front. The shinko 241 is really a dream tire which will never pinch flat and you should get a few thousand miles out of it. Plus there may have been a chance you would not have lost that bike on the sand that time.

The raptor is ridiculously stable at speed. Actually, the last few days I have been thinking that I need to use 24s voltage to get a higher top speed. The 38MPH top speed just feels too slow on this bike. I used to feel like I was flying at that speed on my old ebike, but not with the raptor. What prevents me from getting more speed is that I do a lot of stupid stuff with the bike and having the lower speed is a good safety measure.

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Re: Torque Raptor ebike + frame kit

Post by Offroader » Jan 14 2014 4:44am

Scott wrote:
Offroader wrote:I did a 5 foot drop and ran into a little problem.. Wrists hurt a bit afterwards and back still hurts a bit. I have to obviously change how I approach drops. I think I have to land more evenly or pick up more speed.
I must have landed with my front tire first. It didn't help that I was scared right before I did this particular drop.
I did something similar in my back yard right before I converted my bike to electric. On my first jump I did not have enough speed and did not pull up on the bars at all. I thought I was going over the bars on the first jump.
Yep, that is probably exactly what I did. I can see how dangerous it can be by landing like that by putting all your weight into the handlebars. I guess key is pulling up on the handlebars.

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efMX Trials Electric Freeride   1 MW

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Re: Torque Raptor ebike + frame kit

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Jan 14 2014 11:57am

yeah landing front wheel first will definitely damage either you, the bike or both!..
but not all wreaks are avoidable & im guessing the raptor is not especially lightweight to pull the bars???
some of you guys may be interested in these : moto flex bars..
comfortable, strong, & could save your wrists from strain/sprain/fracture..

http://www.fasstco.com/shop/flexx-handl ... dlebars-mx



Offroader wrote:Yep, that is probably exactly what I did. I can see how dangerous it can be by landing like that by putting all your weight into the handlebars. I guess key is pulling up on the handlebars.
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Re: Torque Raptor ebike + frame kit

Post by snellemin » Jan 14 2014 1:04pm

Offroader, just some sticker on the swing arm came off, scratch up my new pedals and scratched up my axle bolt.
If I went with moto tires on the trails I ride, I would probably be banned from them. The raptor already get some crazy looks from the peeps that work at Bikebarn, who maintain the trails I ride on. Since I'm not planning to build a dragbike out of the Raptor yet, I'm going to stick with 21S and bike 26" bike tires. I think it's easier to swap out bike tires vs moto tires. I think when I do have some money on the side, I could go for moto wheel setup and another cromotor. That would be safer to build a drag bike out of it and beat smart cars :lol: :lol: :lol:

I had 40mph max in my head when I decided to build a Raptor. But was quite surprised that I can hit 50mph on only 21S lipo. It's nice to commute with to work. I have enough power/torque to stay with traffic and avoid road rage.
I'm just waiting on thermistors and switches to arrive, so I can access more features out of the CA. The 3 speed through the controller works good. But I would also like to have access to adjust power on the fly. I would like to have the acceleration of the Magic pie at times and not go ballistic with the cromotor every time I go out.

I mounted the CA onto my frame instead of the handlebar. I have to look down every time I want to check for speed and such, which is hard to do at speed. Good part is that the CA stays put and I don't have to worry about yanking the CA out during a fall. I've done it a few times were I would brake the CA mount and rip out wires.
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Re: Torque Raptor ebike + frame kit

Post by Rix » Jan 14 2014 4:26pm

efMX Trials Electric Freeride wrote:yeah landing front wheel first will definitely damage either you, the bike or both!..
but not all wreaks are avoidable & im guessing the raptor is not especially lightweight to pull the bars???
some of you guys may be interested in these : moto flex bars..
comfortable, strong, & could save your wrists from strain/sprain/fracture..

Offroader wrote:Yep, that is probably exactly what I did. I can see how dangerous it can be by landing like that by putting all your weight into the handlebars. I guess key is pulling up on the handlebars.
I rode my buddy's Husaberg 570 which had flexx bars on them. They worked well, especially in the rocks above 70mph. Being that I don't see speeds off road on my Bomber above 40mph, I couldn't utilize the full advantage of flexx bars.

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Re: Torque Raptor ebike + frame kit

Post by snellemin » Jan 14 2014 4:58pm

Those flexbars look cool. I'm with Rix, as I wouldn't use the full potential of the handlebar.
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