Establishing Legal Ebikes in Hawaii

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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xyster   1 GW

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Post by xyster » Mar 20 2007 9:16pm

You were pedaling!
8 minutes 35 seconds into the video:
"I think I'll pedal a little bit. Legs a little stiff...it's a nice comfortable pedal..."
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... ecyclemaui

Better do it again!
Ebike: 5304/20", 72V 35A controller, 33AH 80V 20s15p (18650 sized cells) DIY lithium-ion pack
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 47&start=0
Scooter: '06 Stealth s1000, 48V 30A, 4x10ah SLA
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=148
Ebike: '06 Currie Mongoose, 32V 35A, 32V 22AH hybrid SLA/Li-ion pack
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1010

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fechter   100 GW

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Post by fechter » Mar 20 2007 9:58pm

Busted :evil:
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

Mathurin   100 kW

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Post by Mathurin » Mar 20 2007 11:31pm

EbikeMaui wrote:Hire is the route for my 20 mile videos.So far no one even has a 20 mile video to match.If they did just the video would tell the story for full 20 mile unedited trips..
http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=788388
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=ecyclemaui
Well there's six videos in that link you posted, so it's not clear the one you're referring to. Assuming it's this one, here's three big objections I have about it:


1. The routes certainly appear different on the go and return trips. It looks to me as though you're mostly staying on a large open road to benefit from tailwind, and then coming back on small narrow roads with trees/houses, shielded from the wind. Wind is why I use Champlain to return from downtown, but not to go there, at times there's no need to pedal! This effect can be pretty much neutered by doing a return trip using the same roads.

2. It looks as though you're pedaling for a good portion of that video, the way the camera bobs at a credible crank candece seems a dead giveaway. If the chain gets nuked for the video, then it can't be argued there's power input from there, no matter what.

3. We don't get to actually read the data on the meter. This makes the rest of the video rather pointless...


While it's easy for anyone with a speedometer to be misled about eff by having the wheel size slightly off, tracing the exact route on a map is pretty accurate. But, it would seem you've marked your starting about a mile off from Napili park, and you used different paths in the video...

Markings that follow the paths that were used tend to be more accurate:
http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=788866

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You have to know, not fear, that someday you are going to die. Until you know that and embrace that, you are useless. - Tyler Durden, Fight club. Ditch the fake identity you've created for yourself, walk your own way in a society of mindless drones to become real, you are not your social status.

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EbikeMaui   1 kW

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Post by EbikeMaui » Mar 21 2007 2:22pm

Mathurin wrote:
EbikeMaui wrote:Hire is the route for my 20 mile videos.So far no one even has a 20 mile video to match.If they did just the video would tell the story for full 20 mile unedited trips..
http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=788388
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=ecyclemaui
Well there's six videos in that link you posted, so it's not clear the one you're referring to. Assuming it's this one, here's three big objections I have about it:


1. The routes certainly appear different on the go and return trips. It looks to me as though you're mostly staying on a large open road to benefit from tailwind, and then coming back on small narrow roads with trees/houses, shielded from the wind. Wind is why I use Champlain to return from downtown, but not to go there, at times there's no need to pedal! This effect can be pretty much neutered by doing a return trip using the same roads.

2. It looks as though you're pedaling for a good portion of that video, the way the camera bobs at a credible crank candece seems a dead giveaway. If the chain gets nuked for the video, then it can't be argued there's power input from there, no matter what.

3. We don't get to actually read the data on the meter. This makes the rest of the video rather pointless...


While it's easy for anyone with a speedometer to be misled about eff by having the wheel size slightly off, tracing the exact route on a map is pretty accurate. But, it would seem you've marked your starting about a mile off from Napili park, and you used different paths in the video...

Markings that follow the paths that were used tend to be more accurate:
http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=788866

Image
Doing the trip 1000s of times the numbers add up to the same average amp hours used at each voltage.The milage is always over 20 miles on the round trips regardless if I take the lower road for a couple of miles or cruise the beach along Kaanapali.Yes I do pedal some but it makes no difference in the little pedaling I do.Notice My videos are mostly over 1 hour for the 20 mile ride doing a leasurly ride mostly sitting streight up.I have noticed just ducking the wind gives me better performance than the hardest I can pedal on the whole trip.Still no one else even has a 20 mile video that even compares to my slowest one.Yes you can see when I ovivously pedal lightly for short periods.I never said that I didn't.
The 20 miles is from Napili Park to Lahaina Harbor and a few side excursions that add up to always over 20 miles.
For the worst performance climbing Haleakala Volcano to 10,005 feet in 36 miles with a 150 lb bike loaded with batteries the trip to the top drained a set of four 33 ah batteries at 48 volts.= 1584 watt hours or 48 watt hours per mile up hill but the down hill coast that took 40 minutes to get back down at 30 mph+ speeds the whole trip avraged 20 mph for 72 miles at 24 watt hours per mile carring 80 lbs of batteries.
Efficiency and longevity Rules!
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=ecyclemaui

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xyster   1 GW

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Post by xyster » Mar 21 2007 3:16pm

ebikemaui wrote:The milage is always over 20 miles on the round trips ...

Yes I do pedal some but it makes no difference in the little pedaling I do....

The 20 miles is from Napili Park to Lahaina Harbor and a few side excursions that add up to always over 20 miles....

For the worst performance climbing Haleakala Volcano to 10,005 feet in 36 miles with a 150 lb bike loaded with batteries the trip to the top drained a set of four 33 ah batteries at 48 volts.= 1584 watt hours or 48 watt hours per mile up hill ...
Neither can we see your instruments or how you derive these specious numbers.
ebikemaui wrote:Claims are not to be believed in the ev circles unless there is some kind of evidence.
ebikemaui wrote:Just DO this to prove there TRUE SPECS? for the world to see, or at least come clean on there statements.
ebikemaui wrote:It looks like another ebiker is just guessing at specs and expecting anyone here to believe you.
Ebike: 5304/20", 72V 35A controller, 33AH 80V 20s15p (18650 sized cells) DIY lithium-ion pack
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 47&start=0
Scooter: '06 Stealth s1000, 48V 30A, 4x10ah SLA
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=148
Ebike: '06 Currie Mongoose, 32V 35A, 32V 22AH hybrid SLA/Li-ion pack
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1010

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EbikeMaui   1 kW

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Post by EbikeMaui » Mar 21 2007 4:40pm

xyster wrote:
ebikemaui wrote:The milage is always over 20 miles on the round trips ...

Yes I do pedal some but it makes no difference in the little pedaling I do....

The 20 miles is from Napili Park to Lahaina Harbor and a few side excursions that add up to always over 20 miles....

For the worst performance climbing Haleakala Volcano to 10,005 feet in 36 miles with a 150 lb bike loaded with batteries the trip to the top drained a set of four 33 ah batteries at 48 volts.= 1584 watt hours or 48 watt hours per mile up hill ...
Neither can we see your instruments or how you derive these specious numbers.
ebikemaui wrote:Claims are not to be believed in the ev circles unless there is some kind of evidence.
ebikemaui wrote:Just DO this to prove there TRUE SPECS? for the world to see, or at least come clean on there statements.
ebikemaui wrote:It looks like another ebiker is just guessing at specs and expecting anyone here to believe you.
Match up any other 20 miles or longer ebike videos.There are None!
why is this? You would just prefer to fabricate trips with talk?
Efficiency and longevity Rules!
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=ecyclemaui

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TylerDurden   100 GW

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Post by TylerDurden » Mar 21 2007 5:23pm

Short of actully being on a ride with somebody, there is always room for doubt. But, I'll accept anybody's claims, if they seem at least somewhat reasonable.

More interesting (to me anyway) is the special sauce running Randy's bike.

You got some top-secret mojo in thar Randy? An alternator-based motor with adjustable field settings? I'm all-for open-source bikebuilding...

I kinda like the hooked swingarm config with the motor in line with the pedal chain. That's gotta be unique.


8)
Have a Nice Day,

TD

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EbikeMaui   1 kW

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Post by EbikeMaui » Mar 21 2007 6:14pm

The sauce is just good magnets and a controller with right size rotor and stator to take less space and work efficiently for the power I use for long periods.There aren't many commercaily available with all of thses items.
I know what other motors perform like and how they are made to figure out what is now available and how other ebikes perform.I'm a thorne in here side when it comes to real long term tested facts. LoL.

Doing 1000s of miles on the same routes tells YOU something more than a few comments from people who have no idea yet...

Videos are just a great tool to see any! 20 mile trips averaging 20 mph or more and showing the batteries that were used.The smallest packs WIN! lol. Excepting claims has always been a problem since most claims are just claims wiith no videos of complete trips.Nice to amagine some of the figures that come up in these forums on graphs. lol
No guessing there!
Efficiency and longevity Rules!
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=ecyclemaui

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fechter   100 GW

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Post by fechter » Mar 21 2007 6:45pm

But I can go 20 miles on a bike with no batteries. To make the claim believable, we should see in the video that there is no chain to the pedals.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

Mathurin   100 kW

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Post by Mathurin » Mar 21 2007 8:36pm

May I suggest this route?
http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=791143
You have to know, not fear, that someday you are going to die. Until you know that and embrace that, you are useless. - Tyler Durden, Fight club. Ditch the fake identity you've created for yourself, walk your own way in a society of mindless drones to become real, you are not your social status.

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xyster   1 GW

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Post by xyster » Mar 21 2007 9:52pm

And make sure the speedo is in view of the cam at all times.
Ebike: 5304/20", 72V 35A controller, 33AH 80V 20s15p (18650 sized cells) DIY lithium-ion pack
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 47&start=0
Scooter: '06 Stealth s1000, 48V 30A, 4x10ah SLA
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=148
Ebike: '06 Currie Mongoose, 32V 35A, 32V 22AH hybrid SLA/Li-ion pack
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1010

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EbikeMaui   1 kW

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Post by EbikeMaui » Mar 22 2007 12:18am

Mathurin wrote:May I suggest this route?
http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=791143
Yes you may.That is about 20 miles on the highway in traffic of 55 mph most of the time with crazy drivers.So this is my route most times.
http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=794049
http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=794003
I like to do the coast as much as possiable which adds about 1 mile to the trip.Notice This was a regular type of town ride I do including crusing along the beach in front of the hotels and my slow speeds along the harbor and so on with stops and all my average trip was over 20 mph while my highway speeds were 30 to 45 mph most of the trip.Just the same two 7 lb li po packs is what I always carry now.The vally road to the north is great for testing up and down hills for averages in watt hours at different speeds and testing out ducking oposed to pedaling fast..Ducking always wins above 20 mph or into to a aparrent wind above 20 mph.I'm still waiting for other 1 hour videos. :D
http://tinyurl.com/y5dgo5
Last edited by EbikeMaui on Mar 22 2007 10:38pm, edited 6 times in total.
Efficiency and longevity Rules!
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=ecyclemaui

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EbikeMaui   1 kW

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Post by EbikeMaui » Mar 22 2007 12:26am

xyster wrote:And make sure the speedo is in view of the cam at all times.
And a certified calibration ? Yes Sir.Would you like GPS in view too? lol.I'm done with videos untill someone else produces one faster in a 20 mile round trip with less batteries.Pedaling or not... Try to maintain 20 mph for 20 miles on a 65 lb bike. Ebikes are ilegl here now.. Thats what this thread is about...
Efficiency and longevity Rules!
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=ecyclemaui

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xyster   1 GW

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Post by xyster » Mar 22 2007 8:46am

And a certified calibration ? Yes Sir.Would you like GPS in view too?
Yes. What comes around goes around. Live by the sword, die by the sword. And all the other platitudes along the same lines.....
Ebike: 5304/20", 72V 35A controller, 33AH 80V 20s15p (18650 sized cells) DIY lithium-ion pack
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 47&start=0
Scooter: '06 Stealth s1000, 48V 30A, 4x10ah SLA
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=148
Ebike: '06 Currie Mongoose, 32V 35A, 32V 22AH hybrid SLA/Li-ion pack
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1010

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EbikeMaui   1 kW

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Post by EbikeMaui » Mar 22 2007 10:00am

xyster wrote:
And a certified calibration ? Yes Sir.Would you like GPS in view too?
Yes. What comes around goes around. Live by the sword, die by the sword. And all the other platitudes along the same lines.....
Ditto
Efficiency and longevity Rules!
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=ecyclemaui

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Reid Welch   10 MW

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Post by Reid Welch » Mar 22 2007 9:52pm

Wow, this is for real guys!
Let's all learn more about how to


CHARGE TROLL MOTOR BATTERIES
WHILE FISHING CLICK HERE


:D

let's all get along? we all know what's what

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EbikeMaui   1 kW

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Post by EbikeMaui » Mar 24 2007 3:25pm

Reid Welch wrote:Wow, this is for real guys!
Let's all learn more about how to


CHARGE TROLL MOTOR BATTERIES
WHILE FISHING CLICK HERE


:D

let's all get along? we all know what's what
If you use 105 amp SLAs ,A trolling motor for your ebike, and a car to charge them it is for real!
Efficiency and longevity Rules!
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=ecyclemaui

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EbikeMaui   1 kW

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KOKAMS

Post by EbikeMaui » Mar 31 2007 8:50pm

EbikeMaui wrote:
Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh wrote:
fechter wrote:Hmmm...
Randy's design looks very similar to the Voloci, only with pedals.
Pedals makes it legal almost everywhere. The Voloci was a very good design and worth duplicating.
Same thing occurred to me, in particular the arrangement of the seat tubes.
However the battery tub(ular frame) arrangement reminded me a little like the Powabyke or the Global Strong that CTC sells by the seashore.

<A HREF="http://www.canadiantire.ca/browse/produ ... 5020"><IMG SRC="http://endless-sphere.com/forums/files/gseb_010_147.jpg" ALT="Global Strong GTS-210"></A>
There are many bicycle frames that will support a 5 lb motor with a 7 lb lithium pack for 30 mile ranges.A bicycle with a frame that supports four 7 lb packs will get you up to a 100 mile range per charge without pedaling, but not with a hub motor unless you pedal hard.I'm still waiting to see a hub motor ebike video with 20 mph average speed for 1 hour on a round trip with no pedaling using less tha 6 amp hours of battery power from 36 to 72 volts..
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=ecyclemaui
screenshot432lf3.jpg
http://www.kokamamerica.com/kokam_catalog.pdf
http://www.kokam.com/english/product/battery_main.html
Attachments
screenshot432lf3.jpg
Kokams
screenshot432lf3.jpg (44.34 KiB) Viewed 2253 times
Kokam31Ah.jpg
A GREAT BUILDING BLOCK
Kokam31Ah.jpg (73.16 KiB) Viewed 2252 times
Kokam16Ah.jpg
KOKAM16Ah CELLS
Kokam16Ah.jpg (84.98 KiB) Viewed 2245 times
Efficiency and longevity Rules!
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=ecyclemaui

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EbikeMaui   1 kW

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Re: KOKAMS

Post by EbikeMaui » Apr 01 2007 5:10pm

EbikeMaui wrote:
EbikeMaui wrote:
Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh wrote:
fechter wrote:Hmmm...
Randy's design looks very similar to the Voloci, only with pedals.
Pedals makes it legal almost everywhere. The Voloci was a very good design and worth duplicating.
Same thing occurred to me, in particular the arrangement of the seat tubes.
However the battery tub(ular frame) arrangement reminded me a little like the Powabyke or the Global Strong that CTC sells by the seashore.

<A HREF="http://www.canadiantire.ca/browse/produ ... 5020"><IMG SRC="http://endless-sphere.com/forums/files/gseb_010_147.jpg" ALT="Global Strong GTS-210"></A>
There are many bicycle frames that will support a 5 lb motor with a 7 lb lithium pack for 30 mile ranges.A bicycle with a frame that supports four 7 lb packs will get you up to a 100 mile range per charge without pedaling, but not with a hub motor unless you pedal hard.I'm still waiting to see a hub motor ebike video with 20 mph average speed for 1 hour on a round trip with no pedaling using less tha 6 amp hours of battery power from 36 to 72 volts..
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=ecyclemaui
screenshot432lf3.jpg
http://www.kokamamerica.com/kokam_catalog.pdf
http://www.kokam.com/english/product/battery_main.html
Attachments
8hrKokamPack.jpg
8 Ah Kokam pack
8hrKokamPack.jpg (34.26 KiB) Viewed 2232 times
kokam.jpg
kokam.jpg (43.08 KiB) Viewed 2232 times
Last edited by EbikeMaui on Apr 03 2007 1:43am, edited 1 time in total.
Efficiency and longevity Rules!
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=ecyclemaui

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EbikeMaui   1 kW

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Post by EbikeMaui » Apr 01 2007 6:35pm

For ebikes that ARE the most EFFICIENT! the costs per mile can come down up to 20% per trip in the long run.Since No ebikes are yet Manufactured in the USA with Quality motors, controllers, batteries or Legal adjustability of power ranges by batteries alone there is much room for ebike improvements to start using expensive batteries.
A few improvement Ideas that seem to work well!
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=ecyclemaui
Attachments
screenshot432lf3.jpg
Kokam the one and only
screenshot432lf3.jpg (44.34 KiB) Viewed 2219 times
LithiumBike.jpg
Dual Druve 3 speed system with NO derailers and a 5 lb motor.
LithiumBike.jpg (26.58 KiB) Viewed 2218 times
LongRangEbikes.jpg
LongRangEbikes.jpg (317.5 KiB) Viewed 1200 times
Efficiency and longevity Rules!
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=ecyclemaui

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EbikeMaui   1 kW

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Post by EbikeMaui » Jun 13 2007 4:07am

Tonight our Mayor came to the "Save Honolua" meeting. I had a chance to talk with her before the meeting begin about getting electric bikes legal again. She did not know they were illlegal :lol: and agreed it is a no brainer to get ebikes back on the road and in the DMV books.I was suprised she remembered my name after 8 years of not seeing her.. We also got 1 million from the county of Maui towards Honolua Bay open space funds to keep open space there and a coastal right of way acess. Now momentum on changing the ebike law will start.A non profit ebike rental with funds going towards a open space fund may be in order. :)
Efficiency and longevity Rules!
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=ecyclemaui

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