New Cute Q100 replacement? The Q140 CST

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lollandster   10 W

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Re: New Cute Q100 replacement? The Q140 CST

Post by lollandster » Aug 06 2013 9:28am

I just got the M140 from elifebike.com and I can safly say that this is the first and last time I'll buy anything from them.
First off I got a mail saying it will cost $75 extra to ship the motor and rim if they lace them together for my. I'm thinking thats OK as it means I don't have to lace it and the box may be bigger that way.
When I get the wheel the first thing I notice is that they have f*ed up the lacing. I have attached a photo and I hope it shows what I mean. The inside spokes goes over the outside spokes so all the spokes have big bends. I have to redo at least half of the spokes so get it right. Some how the managed to get it very close to true, they must have noticed the fault while truing, but chosen to ignore it?
On top of this I'm missing bolts for the motor (I did expect those even if it isn't a kit) and a cable between the controller and the motor. I also ordered 4 extra spokes and only got two.
Only a few days after I ordered from elifebike I noticed greenbikekit got the same motor, now even as a kit. If I had just waited a few days I could have got it there instead.
q140.JPG
q140.JPG (145.43 KiB) Viewed 3766 times
As you can see in the following picture a 10 speed DynaSys cassette actually fits and it covers the motor completely. It will be very stealthy.
q140-10speed.jpg
Q140 with 10speed DyanSYS
q140-10speed.jpg (136.59 KiB) Viewed 3766 times
And here is a quick comparison between the q100 and q140
q100-q140.jpg
Q100 vs Q140
q100-q140.jpg (202.3 KiB) Viewed 1443 times
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migueralliart   10 kW

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Re: New Cute Q100 replacement? The Q140 CST

Post by migueralliart » Aug 06 2013 9:40am

Wow ... if I order one then I'll lace it myself.

This would be sweet looking forward to a review after you ride the bike. Having a cassette makes things so much easier if you want to have >8speeds.

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LSBW   1 kW

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Re: New Cute Q100 replacement? The Q140 CST

Post by LSBW » Aug 06 2013 9:57am

lollandster wrote: When I get the wheel the first thing I notice is that they have f*ed up the lacing. I have attached a photo and I hope it shows what I mean. The inside spokes goes over the outside spokes so all the spokes have big bends. I have to redo at least half of the spokes so get it right. Some how the managed to get it very close to true, they must have noticed the fault while truing, but chosen to ignore it?
Actually, if you look up any wheel building guides, it is preferable method of lacing bike wheels.

https://www.google.ca/?gws_rd=cr#bav=on ... +&safe=off

There's your clue, in bold.

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lollandster   10 W

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Re: New Cute Q100 replacement? The Q140 CST

Post by lollandster » Aug 06 2013 10:02am

LSBW wrote:
lollandster wrote: When I get the wheel the first thing I notice is that they have f*ed up the lacing. I have attached a photo and I hope it shows what I mean. The inside spokes goes over the outside spokes so all the spokes have big bends. I have to redo at least half of the spokes so get it right. Some how the managed to get it very close to true, they must have noticed the fault while truing, but chosen to ignore it?
Actually, if you look up any wheel building guides, it is preferable method of lacing bike wheels.

https://www.google.ca/?gws_rd=cr#bav=on ... +&safe=off

There's your clue, in bold.
I stand corrected. They did a good job then. That made me much happier.
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chas58   10 kW

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Re: New Cute Q100 replacement? The Q140 CST

Post by chas58 » Aug 06 2013 11:03am

Still, for the cost of shipping a wheel, I would strongly consider getting something built locally (or do it yourself).
25^3 bike: 25 lbs, 25 mph, 25 mile range.
Road and Mountain Bike Cute Q100 builds:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=49691

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lollandster   10 W

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Re: New Cute Q100 replacement? The Q140 CST

Post by lollandster » Aug 06 2013 1:43pm

chas58 wrote:Still, for the cost of shipping a wheel, I would strongly consider getting something built locally (or do it yourself).
I just bought myself a tuning stand (Park tool TS 2.2) so next time I'll try to do it myself.
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lollandster   10 W

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Re: New Cute Q100 replacement? The Q140 CST

Post by lollandster » Aug 07 2013 4:22am

I have now uploaded a video of me testing it to see if the motor works. The sound quality is surprisingly poor on the camera, but you can hear that the ticking from the cassette is very loud and the motor is barely audible above it.
My Q100 freewheels much better than this one, but it might become smoother with time.


Please ignore the torque washers installed, it was only a test run, upon final installation I'll use the right kind and a torque arm.

Image
Q100 vs Q140
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Re: New Cute Q100 replacement? The Q140 CST

Post by DIY_turbo » Aug 07 2013 4:37am

Hi Lollandster,

Thanks for the pictures and the video. Which version of the motor do you have the lowe (201) r or higher rpm (300+) ?

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Re: New Cute Q100 replacement? The Q140 CST

Post by d8veh » Aug 07 2013 4:51am

In the photo of the two motors, it looks like the Q140 is wider, but the clutch is away from the side-plate. Were there actually any differences other than the side-plate. It also looks like the stator is narrower on the Q140. Is that just an abberation of the photo?

I have cassette versions of the 350w MXUS, and to me it looks like they messed up a bit. They included an extra seal over the cassette outboard bearing, but they didn't provide the correct spacer for its inner lip. The resukt is that the seal's lip is trying to seal on the nut that half sticks out of the cassette spline. It caused drag like in your video. Given that these Chinese companies all copy from each other, it might be worth looking at yours in case it's the same. Here's a picture of the seal and the missing spacer (18 x 12 x 3 mm), which I took from a BPM motor. You don't need the seal because the bearing is sealed:
Image

Image

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lollandster   10 W

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Re: New Cute Q100 replacement? The Q140 CST

Post by lollandster » Aug 07 2013 7:38am

d8veh wrote:In the photo of the two motors, it looks like the Q140 is wider, but the clutch is away from the side-plate. Were there actually any differences other than the side-plate. It also looks like the stator is narrower on the Q140. Is that just an abberation of the photo?

I have cassette versions of the 350w MXUS, and to me it looks like they messed up a bit. They included an extra seal over the cassette outboard bearing, but they didn't provide the correct spacer for its inner lip. The resukt is that the seal's lip is trying to seal on the nut that half sticks out of the cassette spline. It caused drag like in your video. Given that these Chinese companies all copy from each other, it might be worth looking at yours in case it's the same. Here's a picture of the seal and the missing spacer (18 x 12 x 3 mm), which I took from a BPM motor. You don't need the seal because the bearing is sealed:
[pictures]
It doesn't look like they've done that here:
q140-bearing.JPG
q140-bearing.JPG (116.97 KiB) Viewed 3731 times
After having a second look at the motor with the chain rings on it I can see that I'll need a washer at about 1.5mm thickness for it to work without having to adjust the dérailleur.
For the build I'm doing now I think I'll just use the front Q100 to keep the weight balance center until I find time to build a frame mounted battery. It will be good wall decoration in my garage until then.

The motor is 201rpm@36V, I can do a no-load rpm reading if anyone needs it.
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Re: New Cute Q100 replacement? The Q140 CST

Post by DIY_turbo » Aug 07 2013 8:39am

Yes that would great - just to see if their claims are true.

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lollandster   10 W

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Re: New Cute Q100 replacement? The Q140 CST

Post by lollandster » Aug 07 2013 8:57am

I got 269rpm at 40.1v that equals to 6.7rpm/v and 241.6rpm@36v.
201rpm@36v wasn't very true then.
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Re: New Cute Q100 replacement? The Q140 CST

Post by friendly1uk » Aug 07 2013 10:16am

The 201 Q100 is generally found to be 230rpm. 240rpm is only 4% different. Measurement of the 201 Q100 by different forum users has produced numbers with greater variation. A few more Q140's will need to be measured to do a proper comparison.
bmsbattery sent me broken and incorrect stuff, and won't even talk to me about it.

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Re: New Cute Q100 replacement? The Q140 CST

Post by DIY_turbo » Aug 07 2013 10:25am

Do you know how many watts your consuming or ampers your giving to it?

Is the current limitation really at 15A?

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chas58   10 kW

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Re: New Cute Q100 replacement? The Q140 CST

Post by chas58 » Aug 08 2013 10:57am

My Q100 201rpm
Noload measured at 18mph. This put me at 226rpm at an assumed 40 volts, or 200rpm. Either way, the motor would do about 15mph on its own.

I don’t remember seeing anyone else who actually measured the motor speed until this thread. I’m kinda surprised the 140CST would spin that fast. Now I’m curious how fast the bike would be with just the motor pulling it.

Dang, in the pictures above, the 140 looks super wide. Is that compared do a Q100 Front or rear? What is the frame spacing needed? Is it 5mm wider than a Q100, or something else?

Lots of good info here, thanks for providing.


PS – A little semantics so we don’t get confused. chain rings go on the crank, cassettes (or freewheels) go on the motor.
25^3 bike: 25 lbs, 25 mph, 25 mile range.
Road and Mountain Bike Cute Q100 builds:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=49691

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lollandster   10 W

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Re: New Cute Q100 replacement? The Q140 CST

Post by lollandster » Aug 08 2013 11:52am

chas58 wrote:My Q100 201rpm
Noload measured at 18mph. This put me at 226rpm at an assumed 40 volts, or 200rpm. Either way, the motor would do about 15mph on its own.

I don’t remember seeing anyone else who actually measured the motor speed until this thread. I’m kinda surprised the 140CST would spin that fast. Now I’m curious how fast the bike would be with just the motor pulling it.

Dang, in the pictures above, the 140 looks super wide. Is that compared do a Q100 Front or rear? What is the frame spacing needed? Is it 5mm wider than a Q100, or something else?

Lots of good info here, thanks for providing.


PS – A little semantics so we don't get confused. chain rings go on the crank, cassettes (or freewheels) go on the motor.
I'm sorry I didn't know the right terminology, English isn't my primary language.
As mentioned earlier in the thread the Q140 is 5mm wider than the standard dropout thats 135mm, but this wasn't a problem when test fitting it. The picture comparison was against a front wheel version that is only 100mm wide, I forgot to mention that. With a 10speed cassette it needs a washer that adds 2mm more. I haven't tried a smaller cassette yet, but I will try it later as I have a 8speed that isn't in use.
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Re: New Cute Q100 replacement? The Q140 CST

Post by chas58 » Aug 09 2013 10:24am

Ah, makes sense on the motor size. I was wondering!

No worries on the English. I speak a couple of languages (not Norwegian though!), so I know what that is like. I'm just trying to help clarify things. You have some good info here.
25^3 bike: 25 lbs, 25 mph, 25 mile range.
Road and Mountain Bike Cute Q100 builds:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=49691

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Re: New Cute Q100 replacement? The Q140 CST

Post by lollandster » Aug 09 2013 2:04pm

I tested my 8 speed cassette on the cute 140 today to see if it fitted any better than the 10 speed did. Surprisingly it actually fitted worse. The spacing between the 11 teeth sprocket and the frame is actually 4mm less than on the original wheel (the 10speed wheel had only 1.6mm more space). The bike I got the 8 speed cassette from is already readjusted to a 7 speed freewheel so I can't say how much adjusting you need (if even possible) to get the q140 to work without adding a washer or two. If you need to add washers then the frame will need to be stretched that much more and I'm not going to risk that on my new expensive frame. The funny thing is that there is excessive space between the motor and the biggest sprocket on both the 8 speed and the 10 speed.
My preliminary conclusion is that the q140 is too wide for normal use.

I also took a second look into the bad freewheeling capabilities and it looks like the cassette is running very smooth so the drag must be somewhere else. I expect it to be better with use.
q140-8speed.JPG
q140-8speed.JPG (151.25 KiB) Viewed 3676 times
q140-8speed-excessive-space.JPG
excessive space between the motor and the biggest sprocket
q140-8speed-excessive-space.JPG (105.89 KiB) Viewed 3676 times
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Re: New Cute Q100 replacement? The Q140 CST

Post by amigafan2003 » Jun 11 2014 4:04am

Does anyone have the data sheet for this? I need the dimensions so I can order rims and spokes ready to built the hub into a wheel when it arrives.

Cheers.

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Re: New Cute Q100 replacement? The Q140 CST

Post by d8veh » Jun 11 2014 5:43am

Data file attached. Be aware that the rim needs a fairly substantial dish to get it central. Also, you need a spacer (washer) to line up the disc with your caliper, which adds another couple of mm to the width; however, it doesn't take much effort to spring a 26" wheel frame, although quite tight in a 20" one.
Attachments
Q Series EBike Hub MOTOR 2012.pdf
(367.37 KiB) Downloaded 162 times

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Re: New Cute Q100 replacement? The Q140 CST

Post by amigafan2003 » Jun 17 2014 3:57pm

Thanks :-)

I'm ok with the dish but thanks for the heads up. I'll be running Magura HS33 hydrraulic rim brakes so no worries about the disc.

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