Ebikes practicality for cross country expeditions

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cwinhall

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Hi everyone,

New member to the forum here.

I'm living in Australia at the moment (I move countries quite a bit). I am currently in the planning stage of a zig zag trip around and through Australia. Probably around 15 000km in total.

I am wondering what peoples thoughts are on the practicality of ebikes for a very long journey such as this one. Are there solar products out there that could charge an ebike while riding it? Would it be practical to carry 2 or 3 batteries for when charging isn't an option? What type of ebike would be best suited for this (If any at all).

I don't have to do this journey on an ebike but I am a huge fan of technology and I think it would add a tech-twist to the journey.

Looking forward to getting everyone's opinions on this :)
 
Recumbent trike with 200W motor and 100ah of 12s lipo will get you over 400km per charge @ 40kph. Solar charging may be practical if you mount a big solar panel for a trailer top so you can charge while riding. But 400km per charge you shouldn't need it. Just a real good charger. Not sure if any of this is legal down there. I'd take a spare motor and controller too.
 
Sorry I should have really given a bit more info :)

The laws here are no higher than 250watts and speed limited to 25kph.

I would be doing a lot of riding on single track roads, so a trike wouldn't work unfortunately.
 
Fellow ESer Solarshift is traveling Australia for a year on his DIY recumbent solar powered electric trike. What is lacks in show quality looks, it makes up for in comfort and function. Yeah it can be done practically and economically http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=46587

If you decide to go for it and don't want to DIY your own panels, let me know. We haven't officially started selling them yet, but we have 2.4mm thick rigid solar modules that would be perfect for you trip whether you wanted to build an electricity generating sun shade like solarshift did, or you want to build portable folding panels.

No matter what route you go, yes you will want a battery pack, just one.

John
 
To make solar single-track viable, you would need to have a setup where you do almost all the work (low power consumption). High powered cycles advertises a fold up solar panel that makes it look like you can just unfold, eat lunch, then ride away with fully charged batteries. Don't be fooled by this silliness, it takes a huge friggin' panel and some pretty expensive stuff to charge a "normal" depleted pack in that amount of time, but with a small pack you could say, camp out for a day or two and be charged up.

Here in America (Arizona), our engineers love to put power plugs right at the bottom of our street lights for some reason. You can pull a good 1000 plus watts out of these things opening up the viability of recharging a medium sized pack in less than an hour, and a large pack in just a few hours. Gazebos, vending machine plugs, and coffee shops work too, but you are talking about hours and hours of charging to avoid charging so fast you don't trip the outlet breakers.

Having a chase driver would be best. You could sleep in the vehicle and your driver could charge your 2nd battery off the vehicle's alternator.

Bike of choice in my opinion, mid-drive and LiCo due to low weight and ability to grind a heavy rig up something steep.
 
The last time I put my 50w 0.3amp panel on the rear rack of my bike, I got about 1ah extra range out of my pack.

Direct wired it (with diodes) to my 75v battery.

If I didn't have it that day, I would have been pedaling the last 6 miles with no motor.
 
Definitely not impossible.

Here is what I built for grocery getting, but with the idea to do some cross country. I just did a 50 mile test ride with all the camping gear on it. It's uhh, tolerable to ride loaded that much. It's two bikes welded together, to make a full suspension longtail Bouncing Betty 5-2013.jpg

I had 30 pounds of battery, 20 pounds of water, plus tent, bag, cook kit, food for a day. I think I need to add a trailer, to really carry big loads like crosscountry would require.

So you might just look at a regular bike, plus trailer. Panels built into the top of a big flat low trailer. Maybe additional panels that deploy when stationary, and ride in the night and early morn. Then camp all day charging.
 
dogman said:
Definitely not impossible.

Here is what I built for grocery getting, but with the idea to do some cross country. I just did a 50 mile test ride with all the camping gear on it. It's uhh, tolerable to ride loaded that much. It's two bikes welded together, to make a full suspension longtail

I had 30 pounds of battery, 20 pounds of water, plus tent, bag, cook kit, food for a day. I think I need to add a trailer, to really carry big loads like crosscountry would require.

So you might just look at a regular bike, plus trailer. Panels built into the top of a big flat low trailer. Maybe additional panels that deploy when stationary, and ride in the night and early morn. Then camp all day charging.
Click to expand...
Impressive Dogman! How was the camping trip? :)

To the OP:
I use my ebike for both commuting and cross-country, and training for cross-country - though not for off-road. It is very practical if the desire is to maintain health. Although I think we are taking our lives in hand depending on which roads you take and where you go in certain parts of the country. The farthest I went on a single riding expedition was 2515 miles/4047 km over 28 days during the summer of 2011 using a full-suspension downhill bike converted to 2WD + a custom trailer, averaging about 160 miles/257 km per day.

P1&P2.Spanaway.jpg

Day-1. Spanaway, Washington. See my sig for more details.

I charged using two methods: Opportunity - meaning whenever you get a chance, take it! And also just once a day (overnight actually). Eventually I discovered that if I slowed my speed down about 10% that I would have enough capacity to get to my destination instead of stopping and opportunistically recharging (which took too much time). Don't bother with solar: You can't carry enough surface area to make a difference without incurring drag or excessive load.

I carried 100 lbs/45 kg of batteries for the 2011 trek. My average speed was between 24-32 mph/38-51 kph.

I am planning another trip, but it all depends on funding and if I can get the time off. Wouldn't mind doing a formal challenge to the ebike distance world record; Guinness sets the qualification bar pretty high though (meaning give us $$$). In the meantime I keep buffing and polishing the ebike to improve its' performance.

Good luck there doing Australia! Your challenges will be different than mine. 8)
Cheers, KF
 
The trip was nice, I just did 40 miles around the town, then camped near the mountains about 10 miles from home. Used up my 50 miles of range by the time I got home the next morning. The main test was could I do it, with the fatigue. I'm hoping to get some more camping in and around Santa Fe this summer, once rain comes and the forests aren't on fire. It could end up to be car camping, with a lighter more fun off road bike though.

Charging in AU might have to be solar, if you are riding the outback. I'd stick to places where a plug can be found every 100 k though. Easy to carry that much range.
 
I really think for epic distances the recumbent has to be the king of comfort, though I've never ridden one before. The word is if you can get the psyched feeling of being hawked on from behind from bigger vehicles your pretty much set up for a nice ride. Of course, adding additional attention grabbers like flagpoles, wide trailers, and such helps immensely. I can just say that after riding in a "hunched" position can certainly take it's tole if your not young and nimble. Myself personally after long rides, my body goes through an inflammation phase and sleeping on a hard camping mat in this state is a lesson in and of itself. Sigh, to be young again... :(

Edit: recumbent riders do complain sometimes of a sore butt after lengthy rides. I'm sure there are solutions to that problems too :idea:
 
Very true, Justin did his ride across country on a more upright, but bent seat. I'm definitely not considering much more than 50 saddle miles a day, and I definitely run a tall handlebar. The right seat is quite important.
 
All seats are uncomfortable after about 50 miles. I found about the best seat for me was the Brooks Saddle. Even then I stopped to smell the roses every 20-30 miles to give the bum a break. On really long distance rides – it’s a must. A good seat will also help prevent cramping and numbness. Took me a year of testing before I settled on the Brooks.

Couple of References:

>> "hunched" comment:
Honestly, that was not a big concern. More important factors affecting the comfort level were:
  • Eliminating a backpack of any sort. Even a camelback is too much. Better to just take your water break when you rest.
  • Full-Suspension. End of story! The hardtail nearly crippled me on the 2010 road trip.
  • Cruise-Control to give your hands and wrists a break. Rotate grip positions to prevent cramping.
  • Also - Eat frequent small meals. The largest most important meal is breakfast; avoid larger meals midday and evening. I ate something at every break.
  • And drink water all the time whenever you get the chance. Make sure you're taking in a bit of salt. :wink:

Enjoy, KF
 
Hey - just came across this fun sort of video which covers the high-level points.


[youtube]ENQGYlb3q8o[/youtube]

Notes:
  • They make a good point about WIND. Along the West Coast of California, I had constant wind from the North & NW which kicked up anytime between Noon and 2 PM. In fact - generally speaking the whole of the west coast gets windy about that time. The only time wind is different is in an approaching storm - like an eye moving across. To beat the wind, I developed the habit of leaving before the crack of dawn: There's less traffic to impede a good head start and I just found it amazingly serene to watch the sun rise! :wink:
  • Also - bring MAPS. I can't stress that enough. Relying on your smart devices to guide you to remote areas is like overtly selecting the short straw to get screwed. I use MapMyRide.com to plan journeys. There are others out there as well; pick what works for you.
  • I started planning about 3 or 4 months in advance. This is not enough time if you're building your bike to suit, especially if you are dependent upon 3rd parties to deliver parts. :?
  • Like the video explains - do trial runs to get the feel for the bike. Pack only the essentials.
  • Clothes: I took two changes of clothes, period. Wash & dry A-set and Wear B-set. Next day, swap. Everything else is a layer. In the video the guy laments having 90 lbs. of stuff; that's too much for one person. Spare tires: No. Spare tubes: Yes.
  • Finally - communicating/networking with friends, relatives, and associates is prime. I am genuinely grateful for the ES peoples stepped forward and proved good safe harbor and repairs.

Have fun, KF
 
melodious said:
Edit: recumbent riders do complain sometimes of a sore butt after lengthy rides. I'm sure there are solutions to that problems too :idea:
Click to expand...

I find eating bananas and walking around for about a minute keeps the butt-soreness at bay for another 10-15 miles. Typically I only get that if I'm pushing pretty hard, otherwise, I've ridden 50 continuous miles without notable problems other than a little soreness the next day.
 
parajared said:
To make solar single-track viable, you would need to have a setup where you do almost all the work (low power consumption). High powered cycles advertises a fold up solar panel that makes it look like you can just unfold, eat lunch, then ride away with fully charged batteries. Don't be fooled by this silliness, it takes a huge friggin' panel and some pretty expensive stuff to charge a "normal" depleted pack in that amount of time, but with a small pack you could say, camp out for a day or two and be charged up.
Click to expand...

Uhhh, yeah, order some of those semi-flexible monocrystalline panels (300 watts will do fine, they're pretty ligthweight) and 3 hours during the mid-afternoon should be enough for modestly sized packs. I've always thought the ideal ride with solar would be riding at 5-10, charging from 10-2/3/4, and then riding from 2/3/4 to nightfall.

With a recumbent, only using 150 watts of power at 20mph can be easily accomplished with some pedaling.

If you have a voltmeter and actively monitor it, you can get away with a simple diode with appropriately chosen panels. (I built my own)

The only thing I wouldn't depend on during long-tours for solar, however, is a sunny day, everyday. Clouds cut the power output by about half. For dependability, I'd either bring along a gas-gen or map it along a chargeable route.
 
Another trick to know. I take cargo shorts, or comfy long pants, and sew the pad (chamoix) from biker shorts into them. They you get to look normal, have pockets, but still have that smooth cushion between you and pant seams.

Then lube your taint. A dab of Vaseline or whatever between your balls and a hole works wonders. Sweat is very acid, so keep that spot waterproofed. This goes for other things besides bike riding. Framing houses for 10-12 hr days in 110F weather, guys who didn't lube up would get the "ring of fire" by afternoon.
 
KF! Thanks for posting your bike pic! Very Sleek! Nice and very refined! (i've followed your trip in the past, was nice to see it again) :)
Dogman! Your pic of the Longtail has inspired me to do a build :)

As for seats, I like my Catrike recumbent for many reasons. The seat spreads the body weight
out for "Less Weight Per Square cm or Inch". Also, easier on "Neck" for long distance and Wrists too.

A friend of mine was addicted to road riding. He has hurt the crotch! "Bicycle seat neuropathy" "Pressure from seat can do damage"
So if you will be upright with the standard looking seat, make sure that front is slightly down to remove pressure from crotch.

Tommy L sends.....
mosh.gif
 
shame you can't use a recumbent trike....

i just rode my e trike from sydney to surfers paradise.
1113 km in 16 riding days. camping at places where i had access to power to charge each night.

i had solar panels on the trailer, but these were for charging the bike computer / iphone and ipad.
2x9 watt foldable panels. these were sufficient to charge 2x 5000mah packs in about 2 days of full sun exposure.

i managed to contribute about 50% of the power that was used, and managed around 5wh per km most days.

there is a thread on the ES about the trip, with pictures and daily updates.
i had a great time, and have already begun planning the next tour.....

Jason
 
Tommy L said:
A friend of mine was addicted to road riding. He has hurt the crotch! "Bicycle seat neuropathy" "Pressure from seat can do damage"
So if you will be upright with the standard looking seat, make sure that front is slightly down to remove pressure from crotch.
Click to expand...

This is an oversimplification. If your saddle is wide enough to support your sit bones, and it is an appropriate shape, and it's not too high or too soft, and the bike fits right, then usually the saddle should be set up level and adjusted in very small increments from that point. More people need slightly nose-up than slightly nose-down saddle angle for best fit.

The saddle should not hurt for short rides, though some soreness is normal when riding for longer duration than one is accustomed to. Tingling and numbness are always indications of problems that require prompt attention.

Generally, handlebars set higher than the seat go together with slightly nose-up saddle adjustment, and bars much lower than the seat go with level to slightly nose-down saddle adjustment. If the saddle nose slopes down too much, you'll slide forward onto the narrower portion (which causes discomfort, or even injury if taken to extremes), and you'll suffer hand and arm fatigue from having to push against the bars to maintain position.

I gotta observe this: Recumbent bicycles are most often favored by folks who never spared reasonable time and attention, nor solicited experienced advice, to get appropriately fitted to a real bicycle. They think they have found a better way than almost all other riders, but in fact they simply refused or never bothered to learn what they needed to know. There are some exceptions, such as folks with serious prostate problems or pelvic injuries-- but normal bikes are normal because they are what works best for the vast majority of people the vast majority of the time.

If you have no intention of pedaling and just want a two-wheeled micro automobile, then recumbent layout makes some sense for that. Recumbent layout also helps mitigate some of the more treacherous qualities of three-wheelers, if you must have a three-wheeler.
 
Broken-in B68 Brooks saddle on FS or sprung mount is by far the best upright bicycle seat I've found. Leather simply breathes and supports in ways no plastic saddle ever can.

Even my wife who pre-knows nothing about this stuff immediately noticed huge improvement in comfort when she rode a B68 for the first time. I didn't have the heart to tell her it was a men's saddle, btw.....

It's also true fitment and ergonomic angles make a ton of difference but Brooks leather saddles start out at a really good place and get better the more you use them. Plus, the eff'ing rails don't snap into two pieces like most the Cloud 9's I wasted $30 a pop on.
 
Chalo said:
Tommy L said:
A friend of mine was addicted to road riding. He has hurt the crotch! "Bicycle seat neuropathy" "Pressure from seat can do damage"
So if you will be upright with the standard looking seat, make sure that front is slightly down to remove pressure from crotch.
Click to expand...

This is an oversimplification. If your saddle is wide enough to support your sit bones, and it is an appropriate shape, and it's not too high or too soft, and the bike fits right, then usually the saddle should be set up level and adjusted in very small increments from that point. More people need slightly nose-up than slightly nose-down saddle angle for best fit.

The saddle should not hurt for short rides, though some soreness is normal when riding for longer duration than one is accustomed to. Tingling and numbness are always indications of problems that require prompt attention.

Generally, handlebars set higher than the seat go together with slightly nose-up saddle adjustment, and bars much lower than the seat go with level to slightly nose-down saddle adjustment. If the saddle nose slopes down too much, you'll slide forward onto the narrower portion (which causes discomfort, or even injury if taken to extremes), and you'll suffer hand and arm fatigue from having to push against the bars to maintain position.

I gotta observe this: Recumbent bicycles are most often favored by folks who never spared reasonable time and attention, nor solicited experienced advice, to get appropriately fitted to a real bicycle. They think they have found a better way than almost all other riders, but in fact they simply refused or never bothered to learn what they needed to know. There are some exceptions, such as folks with serious prostate problems or pelvic injuries-- but normal bikes are normal because they are what works best for the vast majority of people the vast majority of the time.

If you have no intention of pedaling and just want a two-wheeled micro automobile, then recumbent layout makes some sense for that. Recumbent layout also helps mitigate some of the more treacherous qualities of three-wheelers, if you must have a three-wheeler.
Click to expand...

Chalo,

Thank you for expertise! It is appreciate! I failed to mention: "Always be properly fitted by a PRO".

Tommy L sends....
mosh.gif
 
wesnewell said:
Recumbent trike with 200W motor and 100ah of 12s lipo will get you over 400km per charge @ 40kph. Solar charging may be practical if you mount a big solar panel for a trailer top so you can charge while riding. But 400km per charge you shouldn't need it. Just a real good charger. Not sure if any of this is legal down there. I'd take a spare motor and controller too.
Click to expand...

Wesnewell,

You don't mention controller here, I'm not sure how much you can push a 200W motor continuously? Would you run at 10A or even 15A maybe?

Kudos
 
swbluto said:
parajared said:
To make solar single-track viable, you would need to have a setup where you do almost all the work (low power consumption). High powered cycles advertises a fold up solar panel that makes it look like you can just unfold, eat lunch, then ride away with fully charged batteries. Don't be fooled by this silliness, it takes a huge friggin' panel and some pretty expensive stuff to charge a "normal" depleted pack in that amount of time, but with a small pack you could say, camp out for a day or two and be charged up.
Click to expand...

Uhhh, yeah, order some of those semi-flexible monocrystalline panels (300 watts will do fine, they're pretty ligthweight) and 3 hours during the mid-afternoon should be enough for modestly sized packs. I've always thought the ideal ride with solar would be riding at 5-10, charging from 10-2/3/4, and then riding from 2/3/4 to nightfall.

With a recumbent, only using 150 watts of power at 20mph can be easily accomplished with some pedaling.

If you have a voltmeter and actively monitor it, you can get away with a simple diode with appropriately chosen panels. (I built my own)
Click to expand...

The only thing I wouldn't depend on during long-tours for solar, however, is a sunny day, everyday. Clouds cut the power output by about half. For dependability, I'd either bring along a gas-gen or map it along a chargeable route.
Click to expand...

SWBluto, Pardon my ignorance. What kind of diode would you use? I want to solar charge (38,8v panel, 285w) my 36v lion battery but don't know a thing about diodes.
 
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