EBIKE Recommendations for hilly areas

Joined
Mar 8, 2007
Messages
54
I have an I-Zip Cruiser Enlightened (nimh) now - my 2nd ebike after a WE brushless/ SLA / hard MTB - and I'm looking for a lightweight hill climbing machine. In case it is not obvious, this I-Zip bike is way underpowered.......but a good smooth, light design for level ground fun. An ideal bike for the wife, and also very stealthy.

There are some great trails/views to be had in Granada Hills and the surrounding area. Range doesn't have to be more than 10 mi. including hills

Speed: at least 20. It doesn't have to speed uphill, just get me there w/some pedal assist without burning out.

I'm also thinking "folding" ( is Montague the only real option?),
rear drive (so I can have front suspension).

I am 5'8 130 lbs. w/ bad back so I want to have an adjustable stem and semi-comfort handlebars (more upright position).

Please give me some suggestions or comments:

Cyclone w/ SRAM hub/LiPO (will this work with their controller?)

Texaselectric w/ 35a controller / 36v Lipo

?????

TF may be too much of everything (weight, looks)

Clyte would probably be too heavy, but I may be convinced, in combo w/ Lipo.

Thanks in advance,

NGK :D
 
I'd really love to try the 4xxx series. I know ypedal has the bigger 5xxx series, and remains partial to these smaller crystalyte hubmotors.

From the hubmotor simulator, and all the reports I've read over the last year, and my experience with my 5304, the 40xx's are mid-hill (5-10%) hubmotors at best. They can't make use of more than 2000 watts, and torque at the same power is about 25% less than their big brother.
The lighter, 8lb BMC geared Puma motor also, from Knoxie's reports, sounds like a big-hill (10-15%)climbing hubmotor. He notes excessive heat produced at 35a and 72V, so the Puma may not handle more than ~2000w either -- not surprising as in a closed system like a hubmotor, it takes big thermal mass to transfer and dissipate big heat.

For climbing big hills with a hubmotor, the x5 (5303,5304,5305) at 2,500-5000 watts is by far the best choice. For off-road, the x5 is just too heavy, IMO. Which is why, on balance, if I wanted the best hill climbing bike that I could use off-road too, I'd choose the Puma. If I intended to stay mostly on-road, then I'd re-choose my x5, specifically the 5304 in a 24" wheel.

There's another member here, I can't recall the name, who's using the 5305 to cruise up the steepest San Francisco hills.

Whichever the hubmotor, it needs to be fed at minimum 2000 watts (48v x 40a, 60v x 35a...) to climb steep hills without bogging down or stalling. For good acceleration off the line, like a motor geared through the chain, feed an 5-series hubmotor 3000 watts or more. :)
The time spent sucking that much power is very short, so it's not much of an efficiency loss overall.
 

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Mid range efficiency doesn't seem as good with the 40X hubs which is unfortunate. I wonder how that could be improved?
 
Check the hill at the end of this video !!!

This is the " Dirt Monkey " .. basically what got me started into all this .

16" wheel with a clyte 4013 at 72v 20 amp.

Hard to tell, the short driveway looks ~10%-ish. Can you measure it? Got a level, a meter stick and a plumb?

No doubt that a 4013 in a 16" wheel is going to climb some serious hill, though heat build-up may be an issue on long steep hills. Main problem is top speed. Even at 72V, top speed will be less than 20mph -- looks from the 4011 graph that your 4013 tops out at about 15mph (24kph).

Notice that the 4011's torque at 72v20a is almost half that of the 5304 at 80v35a, and 1/3rd less the 408 at 80v35a. Though a simulation, the constants/coefficients were derived from dyno data.

Excellent job modeling the high-fashion chest cam, btw :)
 

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Very nice video, ypedal -- Safe should watch it.

So the 16" 72v run was with the 20 amp controller too?

Which of the dual-winding's was the motor?

What was top speed in each of the two modes?

Did you try the 25% "hill" in the "fast" mode?

If that driveway was a km long, how would the motor have performed?
 
If I were in your shoes I would get a BMC motor ($600) from EV Tech along with a 36v 12ah 10lb lipo ($675), I've had one of these packs for a year now. That's $1300 for excellent quality stuff. The motor will come with a torque arm AND the excellent support and advice of Doug Canfield. Doug can also supply the rear rack, throttle and controler (some of these are included with motor) So you can get a complete top of the line package. There are packages for much less but I've found they require more set up and tinkering and can have quality control problems.

My C-lyte 5304 with the EV Tech lipo above climbs 15% hills with sit down pedaling on a 11 -- 34 Shimano Mega range freewheel. But this did require some skilled tinkering to set up.

Good Luck,
Al
 
Thanks for your thoughtful responses. YES, BMC Evtech is high on my list. I'll talk to DOug more and see what he feels about 36 vs. 48 v.

That Norco looks cool. but no folding. ANy other folders besides Montague??

NGK
 
yep hill climbing i'd say the BMC puma without a doubt.

The geared nature of the hub motor will make a massive difference.

You *could* use a cylte setup if you really had to, but i think BMC with lipo would be the way to go.

again i agree run it on either a 36v or 48v lipo! :)
 
xyster said:
No doubt that a 4013 in a 16" wheel is going to climb some serious hill, though heat build-up may be an issue on long steep hills. Main problem is top speed. Even at 72V, top speed will be less than 20mph -- looks from the 4011 graph that your 4013 tops out at about 15mph (24kph).

Notice that the 4011's torque at 72v20a is almost half that of the 5304 at 80v35a, and 1/3rd less the 408 at 80v35a. Though a simulation, the constants/coefficients were derived from dyno data.

Must chime in here....
Torque isn't the final word in hill climbing or acceleration, no, the unit you should be interested in is the force at the tyre on the road surface.
If you calculate out the Force-at-the-tyre for a 4013 in a 16" Wheel at 72v/20A, it will be higher than any 5 series in a 24" Wheel. Therefore the little 4xxx motor will outclimb and out accelerate the 5 series lumps. And, as you can't cram a 5 series into a 16" wheel, you can't ever generate as much force as a 4.
Top speed is about 15mph, but that's the whole point of dual winding motors. In 408 mode (of my 4013/408) the top speed is 27mph.

And... here's a better hill climb. First, I take the chain off. Then, I take a 1/2 mile 20% grade hill in 408 mode. There's a roadsign stating 20% on the way back down. It's quick enough, and no smoke from the motor.
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=6555036344853915426

I certainly didn't have any trouble with pesky Puma powered bikes at the New Forest Ebike Rally last weekend. Easily out-accelerated the Team Hybrid stunt bike, and the TF. (Hi, all what wuz there!)

Steve Head
TechBikes
 
Torque isn't the final word in hill climbing or acceleration, no, the unit you should be interested in is the force at the tyre on the road surface.

aka "thrust", correct?

If you calculate out the Force-at-the-tyre for a 4013 in a 16" Wheel at 72v/20A, it will be higher than any 5 series in a 24" Wheel.

Quite possible at the same power level. The hubmotor simulator doesn't have a preset for the 4013. But I can presume there's not a HUGE difference between the 4011 and 4013 because if there was, a 4013 would have a top speed too slow to go faster than walking speed. So...
And, as you can't cram a 5 series into a 16" wheel, you can't ever generate as much force as a 4.

Not remotely true. My 5304/24" at 72v35a generates more thrust to the pavement than at least the 4011/16" at 72v20a. As I'm working on right now, I can cram my 5304 into a 20" wheel and feed it 96 volts and 60 amps like Lowell's done with a 5304 in a 24" wheel -- about 3 times the power a 400-series can reasonably handle continuously.

As the graphs below show, the 5304/20" at 72v20a generates about the same maximum thrust at the pavement as the 4011/16" at 72v20a, but has a much faster top speed . But at 96v60a, it's not even a contest, the 5304/20" generates almost twice the thrust as the 4011/16" does at 72v20a.

And just like I can't cram my 5304 into a 16" wheel, you can't cram 6000 watts into a 4013 and have it live long enough to ride around the block.

I love the Dirt Monkey, btw. Weight is the reason I'd choose a Puma or 40xx over an x5 for off-road riding, not because a 40xx can generate more maximum thrust -- not even a contest between the x5 and 40xx on that spec.

Power-for-power the geared Puma is probably torquier than an X5. But we don't know for certain. From Knoxie's testing, we do know the Puma has a max continuous power rating of around 1500 watts -- also about a third the max continuous power of the x5. So like with the 40xx in a small wheel, given maximal power to each motor and the same size wheel, the Puma won't generate as much thrust as an X5. Continuous power rating is where the X5 kicks all butts. Due to it's 12kg mass, the X5 not a good choice for serious off-road riding. For that, I'd choose both the Puma and the 40xx in a small wheel (like the Dirt Monkey) over the X5. :)
 

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Xyster, how did you get 60A to be selectable on the Hub Motor Simulator? I can only get 20A / 35A.

There's no reason to restrict the 4 series to 20A, why can't I stick 60A into it? Are the windings thinner than an X5?

There's only one reason I use 20A, and that's that I haven't built a 90v 11Ah A123 pack yet. Then I'll be sucking amps big-time!
 
TechBikes said:
Xyster, how did you get 60A to be selectable on the Hub Motor Simulator? I can only get 20A / 35A.

The link marked "Enter Custom Values" replaces the sliders with type-in fields.
There's no reason to restrict the 4 series to 20A, why can't I stick 60A into it? Are the windings thinner than an X5?

I don't know if the windings are thinner -- I'm sure somebody else here knows that. The main problem is heat dissipation. The 400 series seem to be fine for peaks up to about 72 volts 35 amps. There's a report of a 400's windings frying when run higher than that on the PA forum. It'd take a lot of research to find all the cases, but it seems generally recognized the 400 series has a continuous power capability of about 1500 watts.

Knoxie has noted here that the Puma is good for 72volts 25 amps continuous, and that more power mostly gets wasted as heat.

Justin at ebikes.ca, from where I bought my 5304, wrote me that x5 has a continuous rating of about 5000 watts. Lowell and other's here run the x5 that high and don't report overheating. The simulator shows the X5 is more efficient over the entire range than the 400 series -- hence, less heat and with it's larger size and added mass, much more mass to buffer the heat, and much more surface area to dissipate that heat.

I'd certainly be interested in hearing what happens to your 4013 if you feed it 72+ volts 60 amps via a modified crystalyte controller. I imagine you have a lot of motors sitting around begging to be experimented on :) If you can't easily get quantitative temperature readings, I'd like to know the power point where the case gets too hot to hold your hand on if run at that point for at least 15 minutes.

Last year before buying my X5, I studied many reports of max power in the 400 series and 500 series. Believe me, if I had learned the 400 series could handle even 3000 watts continuously, I would have opted for a 12lb 411 instead of a 25lb 5304.

There's only one reason I use 20A, and that's that I haven't built a 90v 11Ah A123 pack yet. Then I'll be sucking amps big-time!

:) I look forward to hearing about your re-build.
 
I'm not sure on the exact wire sizes of the 4XX, but the input wires are much larger on the X5, at 12ga.
 
Are these 5 series hubs outperforming an EVT street electric scooter in the same price range with better battery technology? I think the EVT is $3500 and 1500 watts. Anyone own one? How is it on hills?
 
The EVT is about $2500. The older motors were rated at 1500 W, the newer ones are rated at 3000 W. Don't know if that is continuous or an S2 rating. They are pretty good on hills. You can run them at 60 V (vs. 48) no problem, the stock controller is limited to 80% duty cycle.

You can run the old models at 72 V, Alltrax limited to ~100 amps. This setup will burn up on long hill climbs. I once ran a 72 V, unlimited (300A) - it was spectacular. Lasted about 5 minutes on the flats.
 
I recall reading that the X5 was originally intended as a scooter motor, and it is still sold as such:
http://www.poweridestore.com/Scooter-Hub-Motors/12-Scooter-Motor
 
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