Which frame? And other random Questions...

General Discussion about electric bicycles.

Which frame? And other random Questions...

Postby michaelkramer11 » Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:17 pm

First I want to say I'm sorry for all of the random questions, but thank anyone who is willing to help me get going!!! This is my first build, so yes, another NOOB!

Just ordered the 1000w rear kit from yescomusa (Which torque arms????) I've got tons of experience with LiPo's from many years of rc experience and am good to go in that area.

I'm wanting to make a commuter bike (5 mile round trip, some small hills) and I already have 4 6S5000 30C packs so I plan to run 12S10AH. Not sure how far this will take me but I imagine it will be plenty. I would like to have a solid 10-15 mile range. Does everyone use some sort of pre-Charge resistor???


I've got two bikes available but don't know which one to use:

Bike 1: The full suspension Wal Mart "Next" bike. I've read that you want steel forks. The frame is aluminum but where the wheels mount to the bike, a magnet sticks to the metal, so I imagine they are steel.
nextbike.jpg
Wal mart "next" full suspension with steel forks


Bike 2: Giant Boulder. This bike is in much better overall condition and has space in the frame for batteries and what not but I don't know if the frame is strong enough (magnet does not stick to any part of frame).
giant1.jpg
Giant Boulder Bike



Also, I go to work when it is still dark and was wondering what everyone uses for headlight/taillights??? I've seen some super high priced ones, but is there anything that is more reasonable and still works well? I'd like something to run off of 12/13 volts.


Summary of Questions:
1.Which torque arms for the yescom kit?
2.Approx range on 12S10AH at 20sh mph?
3.Is it necessary, recommended to use a precharge system when hooking up lipos to the motor controller?
4.Which bike frame of these (or do I NEED to purchase something else)?
5.Which lighting system to run off of 12v?
6.Which tubes/tires are recommended and what size/brand rim tape?

Thank anyone and everyone who has any input for my project. I really want to stop using my 12mpg truck around town when not necessary and love the idea of being more energy efficient. I'm hoping this will be my ticket to having awesome fun and doing what I can to save a few bucks in the long run at the fuel pump.
wal mart "next" brand bicycle, yescom rear 1000w kit, 16s15ah turnigy lipo's, greentime 72v45amp controller
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Re: Which frame? And other random Questions...

Postby dogman dan » Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:32 pm

The giant for sure.

Universal rear torque arms from Grin cyclery, or Methtek, or cut your own from some 1/4" steel plate.

10 miles range for sure, even if charging to 4.1v. Better to run 15 ah for 15 miles. But adding 4 cells for 14s would give you a few more wh. Nice thing about 14s is lifepo4 chargers can be tweaked to 58v to bulk charge lipo.

Some insist on a pre charge resistor, but I've just been using Anderson connectors for the sparking plug. Other connections I may make permanent parallel splices, or use the 4mm bullets the cheaper 20s lipo comes with. Then the last plug to the controller is andersons.

Car and motorcycle stuff runs on 12v, but lots of bike lights run on 4-5v. Perfect for 1s lipo. Tired old lipo will run a light for a long time. Grin makes great lights that run on pack voltage.
Last edited by dogman dan on Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: Which frame? And other random Questions...

Postby Drunkskunk » Sun Jun 09, 2013 4:00 pm

+1. The Giant. That next bike isn't worth the time.

The tires you have are of course the cheapest option. Giant usualy uses fair tires. If you want new, get the biggest you can fit in the frame. 26X2" to 26X2.7" depending on what the frame wil take.

An aluminum frame is fine, as long as you use torque arms. in addition to Dogman's torque arm suggestions, there is ebikekits.com for good ones.
For lights, I run a conventional battery opperated LED lite on the rear. For the front, I took a 12 Track light LED/halogen replacement bulb, and I wired it to an old thunderpower 3 cell lipo that just won't keep my plains up anymore.
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Re: Which frame? And other random Questions...

Postby michaelkramer11 » Sun Jun 09, 2013 4:29 pm

Awesome information.

So going with the Giant for sure, a universal torque arm.

Does anyone have links to headlight/taillight options that they like? Anything that I can use rechargeable lipo with would be ideal.

Also, which brand of tubes is everyone having the best luck with?
wal mart "next" brand bicycle, yescom rear 1000w kit, 16s15ah turnigy lipo's, greentime 72v45amp controller
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Re: Which frame? And other random Questions...

Postby lbz5mc12 » Sun Jun 09, 2013 6:34 pm

Just for future reference, if your bike cost you $80-100.00 at Walmart, don't put a motor on it. My roommate had a Next bike and one of the crank arms broke off. All he ever did was ride to and from work which is about 2 miles round trip.
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Re: Which frame? And other random Questions...

Postby Hwy89 » Sun Jun 09, 2013 6:49 pm

I use the thick Slime tubes and the green plastic liners from Slime. I live in a place where every plant has thorns and the Slime combo is the only thing that has worked for me.
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Re: Which frame? And other random Questions...

Postby ken1645 » Sun Jun 09, 2013 6:57 pm

michaelkramer11 wrote:Awesome information.

So going with the Giant for sure, a universal torque arm.

Does anyone have links to headlight/taillight options that they like? Anything that I can use rechargeable lipo with would be ideal.

Also, which brand of tubes is everyone having the best luck with?

I'm happy with these red led tail lights http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-RED-LED-STRIP ... 1c33737e61
crazy bright

I use this head light as well, it's as bright as a car headlight which is awesome. http://www.ebay.com/itm/3x-CREE-XML-T6- ... 460ff77cf7

The head light has its own battery pack. For the 12V led rear strip I got a 3S lipo pack which powers it separate from my 72V ebike.
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Re: Which frame? And other random Questions...

Postby -dg » Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:11 pm

michaelkramer11 wrote:2.Approx range on 12S10AH at 20sh mph?
This depends on how fast you go and how hard you pedal. Personally, I'm big, but I pedal decently and around 20-21 mph I use about 17 wh per mile. My wife uses the lower speed of the three speed switch (17-18mph) and uses less than 13 wh per mile. Your 12s10Ah setup (same as mine) has about 440 watt hours, but its better to routinely use less than about 80% or 360 watt hours. So for me, I'd say 18 wh per mile with 360 wh to go 20 miles. For my wife, about 30 miles. If you are serious about 20 mph and don't really mean 25 or 27 or even 23 and your terrain is mostly flattish then you could probably use 20 wh per mile as a safe value for calculating range. In which case, 12s 10Ah will easily be enough.

michaelkramer11 wrote:3.Is it necessary, recommended to use a precharge system when hooking up lipos to the motor controller?
I don't, yet. Not a big problem, I don't plug and unplug except to charge. Still, it's on my list of things to do.

michaelkramer11 wrote:4.Which bike frame of these (or do I NEED to purchase something else)?
That Giant will be just fine.

michaelkramer11 wrote:6.Which tubes/tires are recommended and what size/brand rim tape?
Cheap tube, cheap rim tape/strips all seem fine, I've only ever had two tubes that caused a problem (spit out the valve stem) and I've never had a tube or rim tape that was so much better than any others that I could be bothered to remember the name. I'm doing a similar build. I'd say use the widest tires that will fit and run the lowest pressure you can get away with. I'm considering the Cyclops CST (2.4), the Panaracer Uff Da (2.3), or possibly if I use fenders and don't have the room the Panaracer RibMo (2.0).
Last edited by -dg on Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:13 am, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: Which frame? And other random Questions...

Postby michaelkramer11 » Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:19 pm

Thank everyone so so much!!!

Does anyone see any problem using the universal torque arms with this rear dropout?
reardropout.jpg
reardropout
reardropout.jpg (142.26 KiB) Viewed 2601 times


Maybe I can get by with using just the short arm piece of the universal adapters and bump it directly against the frame right below that front tapped hole?
wal mart "next" brand bicycle, yescom rear 1000w kit, 16s15ah turnigy lipo's, greentime 72v45amp controller
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Re: Which frame? And other random Questions...

Postby michaelkramer11 » Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:25 pm

ken1645 wrote:
michaelkramer11 wrote:Awesome information.

So going with the Giant for sure, a universal torque arm.

Does anyone have links to headlight/taillight options that they like? Anything that I can use rechargeable lipo with would be ideal.

Also, which brand of tubes is everyone having the best luck with?

I'm happy with these red led tail lights http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-RED-LED-STRIP ... 1c33737e61
crazy bright

I use this head light as well, it's as bright as a car headlight which is awesome. http://www.ebay.com/itm/3x-CREE-XML-T6- ... 460ff77cf7

The head light has its own battery pack. For the 12V led rear strip I got a 3S lipo pack which powers it separate from my 72V ebike.




Ken,

Do you have any idea if that headlight will run off a 3s lipo as well? Or do you know how long it lasts off of a single charge?
wal mart "next" brand bicycle, yescom rear 1000w kit, 16s15ah turnigy lipo's, greentime 72v45amp controller
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Re: Which frame? And other random Questions...

Postby cal3thousand » Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:46 pm

The choice of bike should be very easy. One company already tells you how to select bikes against theirs. "Next" should mean "try the Next" bike.
Get a Cycle Analyst and a Multimeter, you're still a noob if you don't have at least one of each.

Planning on posting questions or buying anything on this site? Put up your country (at minimum) on your profile. This is a worldwide forum and we haven't reached clairvoyance.
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Re: Which frame? And other random Questions...

Postby wesnewell » Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:43 am

I've put hub motors on several Next bikes from Walmart. Never used torque arms as they have horizontal steel dropouts. As long as you install the motors properly on steel dropouts you won't need torque arms at all. I've got about 8000 miles on my current 1000w yescomusa motor running 24s lipo charged to 100V and a 40A controller for 4000W input. With the stock controller on 12s lipo your max wattage will be ~1500W. And unless you're 270lbs like me, the torque on the dropouts won't be anywhere close to the torque I put on them at almost 3 times the power. I would not put a hub motor on any bike with aluminum dropouts without using torque plates screwed to the aluminum dropouts. But then again I'd never buy a bike for use with a hub motor that had aluminum dropouts to begin with. Max speed on 10ah 12s lipo will be ~28mph. Should get close to 20 miles range @ 20mph. So unlike everyone else, I'd suggest using the Next bike simply because of the steel dropouts and with full suspension, you'll get a smoother ride.
A precharge setup will let you make thousands of connections without ruining the connectors. I'd highly recommend one. They're simple. This will work up to 150V.
precharge.JPG
precharge.JPG (18.81 KiB) Viewed 2547 times

5. Only headlight I use on mine is a Cree Q5 like this. It's cheap and works good for me since wired it to an 18ah 1s pack.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-CREE-Q5-240 ... 1060786294
Might want to get one with the extended ring to accept an 18650 battery.
Tires. I like CST Cyclops with XLC 2.35-2.75 tubes. I used friction tape for years as rim tape and never had a flat with it. But when I went to 39mm rims I used Kore rim tapes.
Need Advice? viewtopic.php?f=3&t=66302
Mongoose 26" Ledge 2.1 mtb bike $99, yescomusa.com 48V 1000W rear hub kit $200, Hua Tong 72V 40A controller $35, 10ah 24s lipo $217=~43mph, range=45 miles @ 20mph. 25K miles and still going strong.
Huffy Fortress 3.0 with MXUS 3000 4T motor, 24s lipo, 96V 60A controller. Total cost with extras <$700. Top speed ~50mph
My videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0KW4U ... _G2wQhptMg
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Re: Which frame? And other random Questions...

Postby wesnewell » Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:47 am

You might want to look at this too.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=49638
Need Advice? viewtopic.php?f=3&t=66302
Mongoose 26" Ledge 2.1 mtb bike $99, yescomusa.com 48V 1000W rear hub kit $200, Hua Tong 72V 40A controller $35, 10ah 24s lipo $217=~43mph, range=45 miles @ 20mph. 25K miles and still going strong.
Huffy Fortress 3.0 with MXUS 3000 4T motor, 24s lipo, 96V 60A controller. Total cost with extras <$700. Top speed ~50mph
My videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0KW4U ... _G2wQhptMg
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Re: Which frame? And other random Questions...

Postby dogman dan » Tue Jun 11, 2013 6:12 am

That's a good dropout on the Giant. You could use the Grin torque arm, or pretty easily cut some plates that fit that v shaped flat plate.

You could bolt to the hole, but you'd need a few spacers under the plate to have it lie nice and flat. Maybe you have long enough axle for that, maybe not.

I put 2000 commuter miles on a "bike shaped object" Eventually the back swing arms would bend out instead of applying the brakes, so I had no rear brakes. Some components had to go immediately. Seat, handlebars, the crank. The original tires go perhaps 500 miles.

It was quite a relief to switch to a better bike, which now has over 8000 miles on it with very few problems. Much depends on how many miles you pound a week on that bike. You need a good bike for 3000 miles a year.
For those that still don't know, I work online, for E-bikekit.com

Frankenbike longtail
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... cing+betty.

bolt on longtail viewtopic.php?f=6&t=74584

The mixte long tail. viewtopic.php?f=6&t=74384

Beach cruiser converted to long tail. viewtopic.php?f=6&t=67049&p=1045572&hilit=Longtail+beach+cruiser#p1045572
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Re: Which frame? And other random Questions...

Postby michaelkramer11 » Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:11 am

wesnewell wrote:I've put hub motors on several Next bikes from Walmart. Never used torque arms as they have horizontal steel dropouts. As long as you install the motors properly on steel dropouts you won't need torque arms at all. I've got about 8000 miles on my current 1000w yescomusa motor running 24s lipo charged to 100V and a 40A controller for 4000W input. With the stock controller on 12s lipo your max wattage will be ~1500W. And unless you're 270lbs like me, the torque on the dropouts won't be anywhere close to the torque I put on them at almost 3 times the power. I would not put a hub motor on any bike with aluminum dropouts without using torque plates screwed to the aluminum dropouts. But then again I'd never buy a bike for use with a hub motor that had aluminum dropouts to begin with. Max speed on 10ah 12s lipo will be ~28mph. Should get close to 20 miles range @ 20mph. So unlike everyone else, I'd suggest using the Next bike simply because of the steel dropouts and with full suspension, you'll get a smoother ride.
A precharge setup will let you make thousands of connections without ruining the connectors. I'd highly recommend one. They're simple. This will work up to 150V.
precharge.JPG

5. Only headlight I use on mine is a Cree Q5 like this. It's cheap and works good for me since wired it to an 18ah 1s pack.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-CREE-Q5-240 ... 1060786294
Might want to get one with the extended ring to accept an 18650 battery.
Tires. I like CST Cyclops with XLC 2.35-2.75 tubes. I used friction tape for years as rim tape and never had a flat with it. But when I went to 39mm rims I used Kore rim tapes.



I felt the same way at first about going with the wal mart next bike because of the steel dropouts, which From my research I thought was pretty necessary. I know the giant is a better "bike" overall, but maybe not for this purpose. I may start off trying it on the next bike and see how it goes. Who knows.

I know I've seen comments on it, but does anyone have a direct link on how to enable regenerative braking on this controller?
wal mart "next" brand bicycle, yescom rear 1000w kit, 16s15ah turnigy lipo's, greentime 72v45amp controller
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Re: Which frame? And other random Questions...

Postby Ykick » Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:29 am

michaelkramer11 wrote:I know I've seen comments on it, but does anyone have a direct link on how to enable regenerative braking on this controller?


That's the place TORQUE ARMS become required equipment and if it ain't a clamping TA you're taking more risk than I would.

Under 60V anti-spark is not required IMO. I've got 1,000's of sparky connections on Andersons and they're still carrying 30-40 Amps every day.
Last edited by Ykick on Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: Which frame? And other random Questions...

Postby Drunkskunk » Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:03 am

Steel frame or not, you'll want torque arms, especialy with the cheapo mild steel they make those walmart bikes out of. They just aren't strong enough. Use torquearms regardless of what bike you choose, even good steel frame dropouts can fail under the stresses a motor axle can produce.

That goes doubly so if you wish to use regen. Be aware that regen braking on a bicycle only givwes you 5-10% back at the most, and in Brenham texas, you aren't going to see enough mountian passes and long decents to ever get anything close to the 10% range.
Regen also tends to rock the motor in the dropouts, so they can work loose over time.

As for Rim tape, Velox is the best. I've used it for decades, and never had a single problem with it. However, I've also used duct tape, hocky tape, and sports tape with no ill effects either. The only thing that has failed on me was those cheap rubber strips found on things like your Next. They are rubber, just like the tube, and the rim and spokes will cut through it just like the tube. Tape sticcks to the rim, so it can't wiggle, and can't rub through. rubber stips don't stick, so they can wiggle and rub through eventualy, the same way your tube will.

I originaly used a Spark suppressing resistor, But it failed on me, and I cut it out. Since then, I've been using nothing, with the idea that I would replace the connectors if/when they wore out. That was in 2007, and I've put more thousands of miles on my bike at 74 volts than I can keep up with. Its not a bad idea to have one, but it's not absolutly needed, even at 74 volts. Its more of a headache on lower voltages than it's worth.
Buy the ticket, take the ride.
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Re: Which frame? And other random Questions...

Postby wesnewell » Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:10 am

If your axle nut comes lose, you don't have it mounted good. In over 2 years and 7000 miles using regen braking without torque arms I've never had an axle nut come lose, I did use a jam nut on the inside of the left dropout. I also used torque washers on both sides. This on steel dropouts. Not aluminum.
lnut3.JPG
inside 14mm 1.5 jam nut.
lnut4.JPG
torque washer in dropout
Need Advice? viewtopic.php?f=3&t=66302
Mongoose 26" Ledge 2.1 mtb bike $99, yescomusa.com 48V 1000W rear hub kit $200, Hua Tong 72V 40A controller $35, 10ah 24s lipo $217=~43mph, range=45 miles @ 20mph. 25K miles and still going strong.
Huffy Fortress 3.0 with MXUS 3000 4T motor, 24s lipo, 96V 60A controller. Total cost with extras <$700. Top speed ~50mph
My videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0KW4U ... _G2wQhptMg
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Re: Which frame? And other random Questions...

Postby michaelkramer11 » Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:31 pm

wesnewell wrote:If your axle nut comes lose, you don't have it mounted good. In over 2 years and 7000 miles using regen braking without torque arms I've never had an axle nut come lose, I did use a jam nut on the inside of the left dropout. I also used torque washers on both sides. This on steel dropouts. Not aluminum.
lnut3.JPG
lnut4.JPG



Can you get the axle nuts/jam nuts/torque washers from local hardware stores?

I may go with the cheap wal mart bike and save the GIANT for regular riding. Who knows. So many decisions.
wal mart "next" brand bicycle, yescom rear 1000w kit, 16s15ah turnigy lipo's, greentime 72v45amp controller
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Re: Which frame? And other random Questions...

Postby wesnewell » Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:54 am

Torque washers come with kit. Ordered jam nuts from amazon iirc.
http://www.amazon.com/14mm-1-5-Jam-Nut- ... ref=sr_1_3
Need Advice? viewtopic.php?f=3&t=66302
Mongoose 26" Ledge 2.1 mtb bike $99, yescomusa.com 48V 1000W rear hub kit $200, Hua Tong 72V 40A controller $35, 10ah 24s lipo $217=~43mph, range=45 miles @ 20mph. 25K miles and still going strong.
Huffy Fortress 3.0 with MXUS 3000 4T motor, 24s lipo, 96V 60A controller. Total cost with extras <$700. Top speed ~50mph
My videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0KW4U ... _G2wQhptMg
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Re: Which frame? And other random Questions...

Postby michaelkramer11 » Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:06 pm

Thanks everyone for all of the help thus far.

I've ordered quite a bit of stuff, funny how it all adds up so quickly.

Anyways, I'm probably gonna start the build this weekend, hub kit is expected to be here tomorrow. One big problem is that I still haven't decided which frame to use, lol. At first I was set on the Giant, then considered the Next bike because of the steel dropouts and the rear suspension. Who knows, might just try it on both and see what happens.
wal mart "next" brand bicycle, yescom rear 1000w kit, 16s15ah turnigy lipo's, greentime 72v45amp controller
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Re: Which frame? And other random Questions...

Postby Ykick » Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:37 am

michaelkramer11 wrote:Thanks everyone for all of the help thus far.

I've ordered quite a bit of stuff, funny how it all adds up so quickly.

Anyways, I'm probably gonna start the build this weekend, hub kit is expected to be here tomorrow. One big problem is that I still haven't decided which frame to use, lol. At first I was set on the Giant, then considered the Next bike because of the steel dropouts and the rear suspension. Who knows, might just try it on both and see what happens.


I learn best by doing and comparing different approaches. 'have never regretted doing multiple eBike conversions.
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Re: Which frame? And other random Questions...

Postby michaelkramer11 » Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:34 am

How much do you guys think that giant bike is worth? I'm about to buy it and need to know what a fair price is.
wal mart "next" brand bicycle, yescom rear 1000w kit, 16s15ah turnigy lipo's, greentime 72v45amp controller
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Re: Which frame? And other random Questions...

Postby michaelkramer11 » Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:53 am

Welp, got a little test ride in last night, and all I can say is HOLY S..T THAT WAS AWESOME!

Can't wait to get everything mounted and secured properly and go for a good ride!
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Re: Which frame? And other random Questions...

Postby michaelkramer11 » Sun Jun 16, 2013 4:13 pm

Here are some photos of my setup. Decided to go with the wal mart bike. Kinda glad I did. I had to do some bending on the back dropout and wouldn't have really wanted to try all that on the aluminum giant frame. This frame is working fine at the moment. It does about 28mph on flat ground. My first calculation on energy use was ~28wH/mile basically no pedalling.
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Bag that I purchased at a Pawn Shop. Pretty sure it was an old camcorder bag.
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I used those jam nuts on the inside of each dropout.
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im4age.jpeg
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Powerlab 8 charger and converted power supply.
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wal mart "next" brand bicycle, yescom rear 1000w kit, 16s15ah turnigy lipo's, greentime 72v45amp controller
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michaelkramer11
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Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:51 pm
Location: Brenham, TX, USA


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