Kinni's rebuild

Hi guys wanted to continue my post at the urging of one of my friends. You can scan my first build here:

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=36799

so after blowing the methods controller I spent some time trying to rebuild it and just dont have the technical skill to pull out and replace all those mosfets (including bad vision )

I went ahead and got one of Lyen's last 12 fet extreme modder controllers and started putting everything together today.

Using a couple of thorn-resistant inner tubes ( and a couple regular ones) I created a wiring harness for the new controller along with the excellent connectors Lyen sent along.



Hopefully the 2810 9c motor really had no problem with it other than a bit of water in the motor. Its been sitting out of the wheel for a month, Ive tested EVERYTHING (at least 20 times) I can find. No shorts, good halls etc. A bit of rust (what do you expect after 3500 miles in Colorado conditions?) and a bit of corrosion on the aluminum covers but nothing else of consequence.

I found a great connector for the hall wires on eBay. and replaced the phase Anderson Powerpole connectors with gold 4mm HK bullets. Here's a link to the Hall connector @ $5 US shipped.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-Pin-Waterproof-Connector-5-Way-Connector-Car-Truck-Boat-ATV-UTV-RV-/321040358195

Bench testing the motor in the morning after soldering in some temporary battery connectors.

Cross your fingers!

painted the frame before installing all that black equipment back on

so, plugged everything in (except the motor) and powered up the controller @ 12s



next I hooked up the hall wires and tested them with a magnet:



Everything tested out fine. Only thing left to do is drop the stator back in and start testing the phases. Found a split in the shrinkwrap right where the wires exit the axle. Im gonna fix that first.

Done. added a couple pieces of shrink over the wire and replaced the stator (always fun to snap it back in ) and cover plate.



Nothing left to do but throw the wheel back on the bike and wire it up and see if it goes.

Sorry the pics are blurry. The iPhone doesnt like to take close ups

With a little luck and some research I found the correct (I think) controller to motor wiring. Y-Y B-G G-B on both sets. ran nice and smooth forwards but the CA isn't showing the correct Ah used, watts in use or speed. Yes I changed the shunt value.



still need to put a few more coats of lacquer on the frame and get some parts to mount the controller so it might be a few days or a week before I can actually test ride the thing.

Ive decided to change the rim. Changing the spokes last winter was a mistake as the bike shop gave me spokes that were too long and aluminum nipples that break because the stock rim doesn't allow for nipple angle out of the rim, they stick straight out. Brass is the only way to go here. also a wider rim, with angled nipples. Guess Im gonna take the money I saved on the motor and do it right this time.

said "screw it" to adding more paint to the bike now. Ill do it when I do the following.

1) change out the halls and replace the bearings. Ive got a wierd grunt/shake at acceleration and a light grindy sound when coasting. I believe I have a bad bearing. With all the experience I have at dropping the stator it wont take long to do both.
2) rewire the entire hall/phase wires in the hub. They seem like kinda cheapo wire and I have laid the bike down (HARD) on the axle a few times.
3) add a temp sensor to the stator. Anyone got any ideas on how to do this? Seems simple enough. I could break up a bbq temp stick and epoxy it into the motor somewhere but those run on 1.5v. Id like to wire it into the 3s battery I plan on using to run lights. Guess i could pop in a resistor to the line, Ive got a bunch of 5k ohm 1/4 watt resistors sitting in a drawer.

I plan on adding a DIY light to the front and getting a bunch of small red LED's to the rear fender as a tail light. ALSO getting a ground effect blue light to the underside of the cranks for some geekness.

Heres a pic of the rebuilt bike. 90% complete.





The "C.L.E.A.R. SB3" (what it means is a secret )

Also, I need to change out the cranks and chain. The weird shimano front crank gear cluster is one piece and not replaceable and the chain rings and chain are both worn out so much I cant shift or pedal in anything but 6th gear on the rear 7sp.

Notice the extensive use of old inner tubes for the wiring harness. matches the color of the bike and provides great protection. I used thorn resistant road bike tube for the hall and phase wires, 700cx45 for the adjoining areas (just fits over the road bike tube), regular MTB tubes for larger applications, and thorn resistant MTB tube for mounting the controller. I really should run some reg MTB tubeing around the frame where the bag rubs on it to avoid chaffing.

The bike innertubes are awesome, just the kind of protection I need on my own wiring. The split-loom plastic stuff is no good and I need to change it out.

Have you gotten to the lacquer coating yet?

lol no lacquer yet. Got too antsy about getting back on the road again.

runs ok but I think I have a cut wire in the axle. replacing those this weekend. Need bearings too, I think you can get those at any auto store? Go go oil cooling too.

Kinni420 said:

lol no lacquer yet. Got too antsy about getting back on the road again.

runs ok but I think I have a cut wire in the axle. replacing those this weekend. Need bearings too, I think you can get those at any auto store? Go go oil cooling too.

Click to expand...

Any good news about the cut wire?

after putting it all back together it ran fine for about 100 miles except for a mild grinding noise in the motor.

Suddenly I get a hall shake that would go away if I just let off the throttle. This progressively got worse and this morning it was barely ride-able. since Ive checked the hall sensors and ran every voltage/resistance/continuity check I can think of I came to the conclusion that I had a cut wire in the axle.

Today I dropped the stator and replaced ALL of the hall and phase wires in the motor itself and didnt do a bad job of it. I also found the source of the grinding noise, the little pcb board on the halls had broken a zip tie and the wires and board were slightly rubbing on the side cover. After I repaired this it is silent again.

Jumped on it for a test ride and after 100 ft or so "BUZZZZ"!!!! four hours of work and Ive fixed nothing but a problem that would have become worse over time. The only thing I can think of is to drop the stator again and get rid of the pcb board and just direct wire the (ordering new ones) halls since Ive got it open.

I changed the controller, dried out the motor for a month, disconnected the CA and 3 speed switch, replaced EVERY wire on the bike and Im still having problems. About to give up and order a new motor (that I cant afford).

One thing I thought of just now. The first time I dropped the stator out of the wheel I noticed one of the magnets had come half way out of the ring, I just tapped it back into place. Is it possible that the magnet is jumping out of its spot and sticking to the stator and then replacing itself when the throttle is shut off?

the magnet will stick to the stator when you put the stator back and as the wheel turns the magnets is grinding across each of the stator poles all the way around on each rotation, for mile after mile. i doubt if there is a magnet left now.

well thats not it then, since I just had the stator out today and all the magnets were in place and looking fine except for a little rust.

I find it wierd that this problem is so intermittent when it acts like bad halls, but only occasionally and getting worse. Unless Im incorrect, a hall sensor cannot go bad slowly. Sometimes I can go 10 miles without an issue and sometimes I cant even get out of the driveway.

i thought that was why the epoxy was there to hold the magnets. i wonder what holds it in place when the magnetic field from the windings pushes and pulls on it? if it is loose it seems like it would move over to the stator and then back again if the back of the magnet was not stuck to the hub.

maybe you can monitor the voltage on the hall sensors all the time and when you have this problem see if it shows up in the hall sensor lines.

hmm...interesting idea. Id have to have 4 displays though? One for each R,G,B,Y? Ive spent so much time on this POS motor that Im tempted to just save up for a new one. Now that I know what Im doing I wouldnt let that much moisture build up in the hub (3200 miles before I pulled a cover, rode and let it sit out in rain and snow.) $300 is a lot of money for me though.

Also, in fear of burning out a second controller I shut off the throttle the INSTANT i get that big rumble. Id have to be staring at the V constantly and at 10-15 mph wouldnt the volt meter just register 2.5v constantly?

one more. since changing to the Lyen controller from the methods 6 fet, my speedo readout jumps around when on the throttle and stays consistent while coasting (CA/hall readout). I had a max speed the other day of 210 mph (must be a record! )

unrelated- busted a toe last night, kicked my computer chair while walking by.



If Im not injured Im not living life

dropped the stator (AGAIN) and spent some time chipping out the stock hall sensors. The middle one slid right out and all three wires snapped off, the outer halls needed me to get in there with a pick and basically destroy them to clean out the slots for the new sensors, most of the wires broke right off either the board or the hall itself. This was probably my problem all along.

the slots are ready for the new halls coming from dnmun (THANKS!) and I plan to ditch the corroded PCB in the motor and straight wire them. Ive got the correct wiring (placed in motor and facing (signal, ground, +5v)) and hope this finally cures my problem.

well i did finally find an envelope and they will be in the mail monday. my last hall sensors out of about 60 i bot from mouser

Your motor really looks pretty good - the windings look pristine. You're going to end up with a pretty nice unit when you get the halls replaced!

halls came today.



need a microscope to wire these damn things lol. more later

first timer syndrome, I did the halls in the entire wrong order (as in placing the halls in thier slots before wiring them) The result is pretty ugly but should work fine.



also rewired a clothes dryer from a 4 prong to 3 prong plug (first time) Went a lot smoother than the motor (yes I added the ground strap)

Put it all back together for a quicky bench test and the first turn of the throttle made the back wheel shake. DAMN!!!!

Then stupid me forgot to switch the blue and green phase wires due to the new lyen controller.



After the switch I turned the throttle gently and it runs smooth!

Now I just need to sit there and no load test the thing for a good ten minutes or something to make sure everything is kosher before taking it out for a test ride.

crossing my fingers!!!!

So far so good! Took it for a 1/4 mile test ride at a whopping 10 mph (speed one on the 3 speed switch)! slight squeak in the bearings (gotta replace those), and the whole rear rim needs to be replaced with something better.

Off to go for a longer test ride at speed 2 (legal @ 20 mph max). Cant believe Ive pulled this off!

EDIT: Im back! 2.3 miles at about 16-18 mph climbing 5%. NO PROBLEMS! I think I have this issue licked! 8)

Time to start thinking about further projects:

Install the on/off switch in a better place, its just laying in the battery bag.
upgrade the phase wires to larger gauge
oil cooling!
temp sensor in the motor with small readout. (not running V3 CA)
figure out how to get rid of the dead zones in the Magura Throttle.
lighting system (its getting dark earlier )
Chain and crank replacement with wider bottom bracket for clearance from the bag. 110 mm is just too small and the cranks rub on the bag.

Kinni420 said:

So far so good! Took it for a 1/4 mile test ride at a whopping 10 mph (speed one on the 3 speed switch)! slight squeak in the bearings (gotta replace those), and the whole rear rim needs to be replaced with something better.

Off to go for a longer test ride at speed 2 (legal @ 20 mph max). Cant believe Ive pulled this off!

EDIT: Im back! 2.3 miles at about 16-18 mph climbing 5%. NO PROBLEMS! I think I have this issue licked! 8)

Time to start thinking about further projects:

Install the on/off switch in a better place, its just laying in the battery bag.
upgrade the phase wires to larger gauge
oil cooling!
temp sensor in the motor with small readout. (not running V3 CA)
figure out how to get rid of the dead zones in the Magura Throttle.
lighting system (its getting dark earlier )
Chain and crank replacement with wider bottom bracket for clearance from the bag. 110 mm is just too small and the cranks rub on the bag.

Click to expand...

CONGRATULATIONS! This is a big, big deal. You've come back from HALL SENSOR DEATH!!!

It does me good to know that you've got the same to-do list as I do for the motor. Any idea what bearings you might install?

JKB

hmm...I was just going to order the bearings from Justin's bunch but Im super open to any better ideas! My ebikes front hub is 21 years old with irreplaceable bearings and has probably about 10k miles on it and still wont stop spinning without a tube and tire on it. (Ya, as kid geeks me and my friend actually balanced it with stick on weights). I dont know whats in there but if the bearing goes its time to toss it. Probably something off the space shuttle. I believe these 9c bearings are fairly standard 15x35 series 6202. not sure atm since the motor is back together. Also what about the outer seals? where can i get those?



WOW! the flash brought out every scratch, flaw and piece of dirt. but look at that tight seal between hub and bearing seal! EPIC engineering. you can see the crappy little maker's mark on this "one of two in the world" hub. Only 4 cross spokeing for this baby too!

Got the new on/off switch hooked up. Still room on the sides for little round light switches after I get them hooked up.

Didnt hook up the light on the switch, I think the red might be a little to blinding in the dark. The wire is there if I decide to try it out one night, just have to add a 5k 1/4 watt resistor and attach it to ground.

So i was out for a ride the other day and BOOM! (well no boom but you get the idea) It went dead. I was climbing something I probably shouldnt have (20+%). Coasted home, forgot about it and went on with my life.

Today I had some time to mess with it. Pulled off the wheel and lo and behold. The wires were all melted.



Turns out the wire I used for the phases was more like 18 AWG not the 14 I thought I was running. Time to rewire again with CORRECT size wire. Im going to try to shove 12g through the axle this time thanks to this thread by Liveforphysics.

Ordered 9 feet (3 ft lengths) of 3/32" (about 3mm) shrink from Mouser. $7 shipped. should arrive Monday. Kind of regretting not getting more hall sensors and redoing those again even though the new ones are working fine but my wiring was less than perfect.

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=24547&hilit=phase+wires