Hydraulic cut-off brakes

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Re: Hydraulic cut-off brakes

Post by DIY_turbo » Nov 02 2013 6:15pm

Diogic, I'm also interested to see what you come up with.

Would Izeman's solution http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 25#p691975 satisfy TÜV's requirement of not having the switch outside the lever? It is technically inside.

Chalo once suggested to use this http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performance- ... ProductId= as a break cut off switch - I was wondering if anyone had further investigated this idea.

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Re: Hydraulic cut-off brakes

Post by Dlogic » Nov 03 2013 11:49am

Yes, that´s the same switch i´ve ordered. Just like Chalos. :-) Mine has a metric M10 * 1 thread though.

Next week Dh-Paule will give me some Avid Code R breaks to play with.

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Re: Hydraulic cut-off brakes

Post by Hillhater » Nov 03 2013 9:40pm

I never have understood why Ebikes think they need a mechanism of cutting power when the brake is applied.....?
Pedal bikes dont have that,..
Mopeds dont have it...
Motor scooters dont have it...
Motor bikes dont have it....
Cars dont have it.. ?
Why is this considered necessary for electric bikes ??
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Re: Hydraulic cut-off brakes

Post by jateureka » Nov 03 2013 10:09pm

If you've ever had an e-bike fail to WOT then you'll be thankful you have an e-brake...
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Re: Hydraulic cut-off brakes

Post by Hillhater » Nov 04 2013 1:23am

Even my (very illegally over powered ) Ebike motor driving through the chain, is no match for the basic rim brakes fitted.
If i chose to hit the brakes at WOT even in low gear, it would simply pop a fuse ( been there, done that)
So why a normal, legal 250W -750W drive, fitted with supa hydro discs, should need a brake cut off....is still a mystery to me ! :roll:
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Re: Hydraulic cut-off brakes

Post by full-throttle » Nov 04 2013 1:37am

Hillhater wrote: If i chose to hit the brakes at WOT even in low gear, it would simply pop a fuse ( been there, done that)
So why a normal, legal 250W -750W drive, fitted with supa hydro discs, should need a brake cut off....is still a mystery to me ! :roll:
E-brakes save from popping a fuse and walking home, genius :roll:

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Re: Hydraulic cut-off brakes

Post by d8veh » Nov 04 2013 4:16am

Hillhater wrote:I never have understood why Ebikes think they need a mechanism of cutting power when the brake is applied.....?
Pedal bikes dont have that,..
Mopeds dont have it...
Motor scooters dont have it...
Motor bikes dont have it....
Cars dont have it.. ?
Why is this considered necessary for electric bikes ??
You need them if you use the PAS because the power doesn't cut immediately after you stop pedalling. Also, most Ebike throttles are thin plastic, which breaks easily. When they break, you normally get half-throttle because you need the low-throttle magnet hard up against the hall sensor to get zero throttle. I've broken two throttles like that.

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Re: Hydraulic cut-off brakes

Post by DIY_turbo » Nov 04 2013 9:36am

Dlogic wrote:Yes, that´s the same switch i´ve ordered. Just like Chalos. :-) Mine has a metric M10 * 1 thread though.

Next week Dh-Paule will give me some Avid Code R breaks to play with.
Sounds promising :) ! BTW, What do you think of Izeman's solution http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 25#p691975, is it TÜV legit? If not, why?

Thanks

DIY_turbo

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Re: Hydraulic cut-off brakes

Post by Hillhater » Nov 04 2013 5:00pm

full-throttle wrote: E-brakes save from popping a fuse and walking home, genius :roll:
I thought that was what pedals were for ?..(should it ever happen):wink:
...but actually i would just fit the spare fuse that i carry. :mrgreen:

What do you do if one of the brake cut out switches or connections fails and kills your motor ?
More switches and wiring means more potential for problems.
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Re: Hydraulic cut-off brakes

Post by cal3thousand » Nov 04 2013 5:58pm

Hillhater wrote:
full-throttle wrote: E-brakes save from popping a fuse and walking home, genius :roll:
I thought that was what pedals were for ?..(should it ever happen):wink:
...but actually i would just fit the spare fuse that i carry. :mrgreen:

What do you do if one of the brake cut out switches or connections fails and kills your motor ?
More switches and wiring means more potential for problems.
The circuit for a e-brake is normally open. So if you have a fault, just unplug and go.

In my book, the ebrake handles are good for a couple situations. With PAS and/or cruise control, it's a need or else you'll have to blip the throttle every time you wish to stop. Then, the last useful (albeit rare) situation is run away throttle or standing around meddlesome kids. There's no clutch or 'neutral' with our bikes, so a careless throttle grab on a powerful setup could lead to comedy or pain (depending on where you were standing at the time)
Get a Cycle Analyst and a Multimeter, you're still a noob if you don't have at least one of each.

Planning on posting questions or buying anything on this site? Put up your country (at minimum) on your profile. This is a worldwide forum and we haven't reached clairvoyance.

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Re: Hydraulic cut-off brakes

Post by Hillhater » Nov 05 2013 12:37am

cal3thousand wrote: The circuit for a e-brake is normally open. So if you have a fault, just unplug and go.
..but not in all cases.
..and what if the fault is on the controller side of the plug ?
cal3thousand wrote:In my book, the ebrake handles are good for a couple situations. With PAS and/or cruise control, it's a need or else you'll have to blip the throttle every time you wish to stop.
With PAS ? ...shouldn't that stop ASSISTING when you stop pedaling ?
Cruise control ?? do you really get the chance to use cruise control ?... if you can switch it on...you could switch it off too !
cal3thousand wrote:Then, the last useful (albeit rare) situation is run away throttle or standing around meddlesome kids. There's no clutch or 'neutral' with our bikes, so a careless throttle grab on a powerful setup could lead to comedy or pain (depending on where you were standing at the time)
..So you stand with your hand on the brake ? ....so do I,... ( or i turn the safety switch to "off" if i think someone is likely to fool around)

Really , these are poor justifications for the extra complexity of brake cut off switching systems.
The only genuine reasons i can think of is for activating regen... if you happen to have that facility ( DD hub and suitable controller etc )....or simply to comply with the laws in your locality.
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Re: Hydraulic cut-off brakes

Post by d8veh » Nov 05 2013 6:12am

Hillhater wrote:
cal3thousand wrote: The circuit for a e-brake is normally open. So if you have a fault, just unplug and go.
..but not in all cases.
..and what if the fault is on the controller side of the plug ?
cal3thousand wrote:In my book, the ebrake handles are good for a couple situations. With PAS and/or cruise control, it's a need or else you'll have to blip the throttle every time you wish to stop.
With PAS ? ...shouldn't that stop ASSISTING when you stop pedaling ?
Cruise control ?? do you really get the chance to use cruise control ?... if you can switch it on...you could switch it off too !
cal3thousand wrote:Then, the last useful (albeit rare) situation is run away throttle or standing around meddlesome kids. There's no clutch or 'neutral' with our bikes, so a careless throttle grab on a powerful setup could lead to comedy or pain (depending on where you were standing at the time)
..So you stand with your hand on the brake ? ....so do I,... ( or i turn the safety switch to "off" if i think someone is likely to fool around)

Really , these are poor justifications for the extra complexity of brake cut off switching systems.
The only genuine reasons i can think of is for activating regen... if you happen to have that facility ( DD hub and suitable controller etc )....or simply to comply with the laws in your locality.

How can it fail on the controller side of the plug? If it could do that, it wouldn't matter if you had the switches connected or not.

Yes, controllers should stop power when you stop pedalling, but they don't, so you need brake cut-offs.

If you fit a cruise control, they're essential, but not only that, they're really useful for controlling the power. I leave my cruise on, and use the brakes to cut power when I want to slow down or stop, and then let go the brakes to accelerate back up to cruise speed. No need to touch the throttle, which makes very comfortable riding.

You're impression of brake switches, to me, seems somewhat unrealistic. They're very reliable, and even if they did give problems, you only have to disconnect them or cut the wire. I have them on all my bikes. I can't say I wouldn't ride a bike without them, but, for me, the advantages far out-weigh the minimal disadvantages. They make the bike both more pleasant and safer to ride. I can understand your point of view to an extent if you have a throttle-only electric motocross bike, but it's a different situation to use a bike on the road for normal commuting.

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Re: Hydraulic cut-off brakes

Post by MAGICPIE3FOCUSPOWER » Nov 10 2013 1:04pm

Chalo wrote:Magnetic micro proximity switches usually cost more than contact microswitches, but they offer different mounting options. Some of them are really small.

Image
Where can I buy this one?
Looks fine for my project :mrgreen:
Nothing is perfect until I touch it...

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Re: Hydraulic cut-off brakes

Post by jbalat » Nov 12 2013 5:50pm

my crystallite controller has a soft power switch together with an ebrake ? switch which I have mounted on the handlebars on the left of my throttle/cruise.

I assume switching this off is just as good as a brake cutoff in case of throttle runaway ?

you can see it mounted here in the video (P.S. try not to laugh too hard, it was my first ride on this beast)

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Re: Hydraulic cut-off brakes

Post by llile » Nov 12 2013 8:49pm

Instead of hacking a switch on my hydraulic brakes, I had an old mechanical brake lever with a switch in it, and just hooked that up separately so I activate it when I grab the hydraulic lever. This gives the option of just using the E-brake separately. I can game this and get a lot more regen on a ride if I am getting Range Anxiety.

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Re: Hydraulic cut-off brakes

Post by d8veh » Nov 15 2013 5:42pm

Hillhater wrote:I never have understood why Ebikes think they need a mechanism of cutting power when the brake is applied.....?
Pedal bikes dont have that,..
Mopeds dont have it...
Motor scooters dont have it...
Motor bikes dont have it....
Cars dont have it.. ?
Why is this considered necessary for electric bikes ??
Another reason: On our UK forum, a guy was running a 500w BPM without cut-off switches. His throttle stayed on for whatever reason, so he had no choice but to overwhelm the motor with the brakes, which caused so much current to flow that it melted the solder off the reinforced traces in his controller. He was lucky that he didn't burn his motor too:
http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electri ... -help.html

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Re: Hydraulic cut-off brakes

Post by Hillhater » Nov 15 2013 9:25pm

d8veh wrote:...so he had no choice but to overwhelm the motor with the brakes, which caused so much current to flow that it melted the solder off the reinforced traces in his controller.
So his "modified" controller doesnt have current limiting or over current protection ! ( or even a simple fuse ) :roll:
..and he has no other means of cutting power ? ( control switch etc) such that once the battery is connected, everything is "live" ?
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Re: Hydraulic cut-off brakes

Post by d8veh » Nov 16 2013 10:56am

Hillhater wrote:
d8veh wrote:...so he had no choice but to overwhelm the motor with the brakes, which caused so much current to flow that it melted the solder off the reinforced traces in his controller.
So his "modified" controller doesnt have current limiting or over current protection ! ( or even a simple fuse ) :roll:
..and he has no other means of cutting power ? ( control switch etc) such that once the battery is connected, everything is "live" ?
Try stalling your motor with the brakes for about 10 seconds to see if you're protected. The one time I stalled a motor for a split second, it damaged the gears.

No he didn't have an accessible master switch and even if he did, imagine what you'd do when the throttles stuck on full when you' re turning a corner completely taken by surprise, would you go for the brakes or the switch, bearing in mind that you're already going too fast for what you want?

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Re: Hydraulic cut-off brakes

Post by DIY_turbo » Nov 21 2013 7:06am

Dlogic wrote:Yes, that´s the same switch i´ve ordered. Just like Chalos. :-) Mine has a metric M10 * 1 thread though.

.

Hi Diologic,

I think I'll attempt to do something similar to your idea Where did you find the pressure switch with metric fittings?

Best

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Re: Hydraulic cut-off brakes

Post by Dlogic » Nov 28 2013 2:34pm

I found my switch here:

https://www.akf-shop.de/simson/elektron ... tAodrn0AGA

The M10 * 1 was modified to M8 * 0,75 in order to make things more compact. :-)

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Re: Hydraulic cut-off brakes

Post by DIY_turbo » Dec 03 2013 9:47am

Dlogic wrote:I found my switch here:

The M10 * 1 was modified to M8 * 0,75 in order to make things more compact. :-)
Wow cool. Thanks - so how do you make it smaller :? - would love to know how. :)

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Re: Hydraulic cut-off brakes

Post by Dlogic » Dec 03 2013 12:19pm

That´s no big deal since the rear part of the switch is hexagonal. Just clamp that part in the lathe and work it down to a diameter of 8mm. Next cut the new thread on it and you´re all set. :-)

Image

Located on the left side is the original t shaped brass connector. The powder coated and rethreaded one for the avid code r brakes sits on the right side. On the center the hydraulic pressure switch has been installed. This thing goes between the brake lever and caliper. Once the lever is pulled the oil pressure actuates the switch. A clean and moisture proof solution.

The only downside is that you´ll need to bleed the brakes. Without the 50€ avid bleed kit an impossible task.

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Re: Hydraulic cut-off brakes

Post by DIY_turbo » Dec 03 2013 11:25pm

Dlogic wrote:
A clean and moisture proof solution. .

Yes, very clean indeed. Actually the most awesome hydraulic cut off switch for DOT 5.1 I've seen on ES until now or anywhere else :D Dlogic, you rule. :wink:

Just to make sure, your Bill of Materials would be:

1x T-connector with M8 fittings
3x Male to Female adapter (Also (M8x0,75)?)
2x Avid tube fittings (what is the size of the avid thread, also (M8x0,75)?)

Again, excellent work!

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Re: Hydraulic cut-off brakes

Post by Dlogic » Dec 04 2013 3:58pm

Thanks for the charming words. :-)

Finally some spare time was found to fit the switch to the bike. The intention was to use it for activating the rear brake light. But since it´s so sensitive it could also be used to activate regen. With just a very light squeeze on the lever it closes long before the brake pads begin to excerpt pressure to the disc.

Still have to wire it up and tuck those cables neatly. Maybe this weekend it´ll be all set. :mrgreen:

Image

1. The tube fittings from Avid cost around 6€ a piece. Two are needed.
2. A few years ago a taps and dies set was bought that has all metric threads starting from M2 all the way up to M16. Don´t ask me the price though, you´ll think i´m nuts!
3. The bleed kit from Avid costs another 50€.
4. The T connector comes with M10*1 threads and was reworked using a lathe. The M10 threads look way to bulky.

The Avid tube fittings have an M8*0,75 mm thread. You can also make these yourself on a lathe and save those 12€.
Precise cutting tools are a must here or else you´ll end up with a leaking system. :twisted:

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Re: Hydraulic cut-off brakes

Post by full-throttle » Dec 04 2013 5:56pm

Dlogic wrote:The bleed kit from Avid costs another 50€.
You can make your own for much less. Apart from the 2 fittings all the parts are easily available. The fittings are same thread as some pneumatic ones. Got a whole bag of them :D

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