Building from components

L

Lunar Cappuccino

10 mW
Joined
Sep 25, 2013
Messages
23
Location
Portland, OR, USA
Hello all, first post here. Recently, my old mountain bike was stolen. In a way the thieves may have done me a favor. I've been kicking round the idea of an electric for a long time and in about 1 month I will NEED a bike to get to class (I have a car but there's nowhere legal for me to park). I've looked at lots of different things, off the shelf commercial electrics, buying and converting an existing commuter bike, and buying a frameset and components, including a gearless hub motor kit, probably something in the 2000W range. The framesets I'm looking at are by Surly: the Troll Mtn bike frame and the Long Haul Trucker. I haven't picked out the other non-electric parts yet but I'll go with mid-range quality stuff. I'm also thinking of getting a front drive motor of the same type and wiring them both into the same battery for a 2WD 4000W bike. In that scenario I would need to buy an additional controller (that's my understanding anyway).

Here's my question: I am very mechanically inclined and have a ton of expensive tools from when I was a automotive gearhead that just collect dust, however, I've never built a bike from parts before though I used to have to do quite a bit of service on my stolen bike. How hard is putting together a bike and motor kit? How many person-hours are we looking at?

BTW - the purpose of all this power is not to careen around like some drunken teenager. I have a VERY steep and high hill to climb with all this stuff every single day and don't want to arrive soaked in sweat.
 
As someone with less automotive background and more modest tool shed, but someone who has built a bike from the frame-up... maybe it's better to buy a decent (new or used) bike and add an electric kit. I spent a lot of time and energy on the little things - if I had a complete bike as a starting point - I would not have had to hassle with (this all refers to my a-line build, see the signature).

Also. new to e-biking... Don't rule out the 2 motor plan, but maybe start with one and upgrade? I have no experience here. IIRC, KingFish and Teklektik each have 2WD bikes. Read their build threads for inspiration.
 
If you're even considering 4kW (5.4hp) on a bicycle, go for the sturdiest of your options: in this case, Troll rather than LHT. It has a stronger fork and it gives you the choice of very fat tires to trim the peaks off of the forces you'll be subjecting your bike to. With 24" wheels, the Troll will have a similar bottom bracket height to a Long Haul Trucker with 700c wheels. And those 24" wheels might make the difference between a happy bike and an unhappy one on a long steep hill.

You can put together a bike using your hot rod wrenching skills, but you should consider letting an experienced bike guy set up your wheels, brakes, and shifters initially. Doing those things right is more like setting up a musical instrument.
 
MattyCiii said:
As someone with less automotive background and more modest tool shed, but someone who has built a bike from the frame-up... maybe it's better to buy a decent (new or used) bike and add an electric kit. I spent a lot of time and energy on the little things - if I had a complete bike as a starting point - I would not have had to hassle with (this all refers to my a-line build, see the signature).

Also. new to e-biking... Don't rule out the 2 motor plan, but maybe start with one and upgrade? I have no experience here. IIRC, KingFish and Teklektik each have 2WD bikes. Read their build threads for inspiration.
Click to expand...

Kingfish and Teklektik, are those 2WD kits? Well, here's the reason I'm thinking to start with 2WD. First of all, more power obviously but remember that my old bike was jacked. I don't have a front wheel and the good ones are like $250 each anyway. The motors alone seem to be around $500 (well, that's for one my e-bike guy was thinking about to push 48V and 22A through. P=IV, so that's 1056W, I don't know if the thing in the kit I linked to has a much more expensive motor or not). Anyway, the motors themselves are wheels so if I don't get a second motor I still need to buy a wheel and I won't put a crap wheel on this thing. So the price premium for me to get twice the power is like $250. This all assumes that the motor in the kit (when bought alone) is not much more than what my builder was talking about.
 
Chalo said:
If you're even considering 4kW (5.4hp) on a bicycle, go for the sturdiest of your options: in this case, Troll rather than LHT. It has a stronger fork and it gives you the choice of very fat tires to trim the peaks off of the forces you'll be subjecting your bike to. With 24" wheels, the Troll will have a similar bottom bracket height to a Long Haul Trucker with 700c wheels.
Click to expand...

Chalo said:
And those 24" wheels might make the difference between a happy bike and an unhappy one on a long steep hill.
Click to expand...

Well, the guys at the bike shop said both the Troll and LH were 26" but maybe they got it wrong. As for fat tires, well, I'm in Oregon. We're more liberal about everything here than most places in that you can do 1000W instead of 750W. So I'm... a bit over that... What everybody local says is that the cops don't give a shit unless you ride like an asshole, however - everything I've read online says that you do NOT want to look anything like a "motorcycle" or bored cops will start to notice you. This thing is basically going to be a real stealth job. That's why I like the build from components idea too. I can pick a pretty but not flashy color scheme, standard commuter bike tires, disc brakes, racks and fenders. It'll look pretty boring in fact with the only odd bit being the dual motors. In the gearhead world we can these "sleepers" as I'm sure you know :)

Chalo said:
You can put together a bike using your hot rod wrenching skills, but you should consider letting an experienced bike guy set up your wheels, brakes, and shifters initially. Doing those things right is more like setting up a musical instrument.
Click to expand...

Now here's where I show my ignorance of bike-specific stuff - set up my brakes and shifters I understand. My old bike was always needing some adjustments there and I never quite got it right but wheels? What's to set up? I stick the hub motor in, torque down whatever fastener they use and... I know, there's something I'm missing here but tell me what :)
 
Wheels need to be true, round, centered on their axles, tightly tensioned, and stress-relieved. New in-the-box wheels are rarely all of the above, and often not any of the above. That part is a lot more nuanced than brake and shifter adjustments.

If wheels get set right to begin with, they tend to stay right. If not, not. Hub motor wheels can be particularly problematic.

The LHT comes in 700c versions for taller sizes, and 26" versions for shorter sizes, with some overlap in the middle. None of them are roomy enough for fat MTB sized tires. All of them have rather low BB height, which is good for their intended purpose but bad for retrofitting with smaller wheels.
 
Chalo said:
Wheels need to be true, round, centered on their axles, tightly tensioned, and stress-relieved. New in-the-box wheels are rarely all of the above, and often not any of the above. That part is a lot more nuanced than brake and shifter adjustments.

If wheels get set right to begin with, they tend to stay right. If not, not. Hub motor wheels can be particularly problematic.

The LHT comes in 700c versions for taller sizes, and 26" versions for shorter sizes, with some overlap in the middle. None of them are roomy enough for fat MTB sized tires. All of them have rather low BB height, which is good for their intended purpose but bad for retrofitting with smaller wheels.
Click to expand...

Thanks. You still mentioned the fat tires that I'm trying to avoid though. I know, better traction and smoother absorption of all that power but I've seen those fat tire e-bikes online and the first thing that came to mind was "motorcycle". I imagine J. Random Copp will think likewise. The main reason I preferred the 26" size was to get a lower effective gear ratio for hill climbing. With 4kW that might not even matter.
 
Don"t forget good quality torque arms. Over 750W hubs need those. Grin Tech arms are excellent.
It"s very hard to make 2wd DD-bike stealth, i mean i am thinking of ordering those Indian-style fenders myself :wink: One guy sells makes and sells them. They hide wheels pretty well.
I can see your point though. It"s of course stoopid to buy a new wheel when you can buy a hubwheel almost same price.
You can still start with front hub only. Over 1000W it gives is very nice pull alone. 2wd of course climbs better.
 
Eskimo said:
Don"t forget good quality torque arms. Over 750W hubs need those. Grin Tech arms are excellent.
It"s very hard to make 2wd DD-bike stealth, i mean i am thinking of ordering those Indian-style fenders myself :wink: One guy sells makes and sells them. They hide wheels pretty well.
I can see your point though. It"s of course stoopid to buy a new wheel when you can buy a hubwheel almost same price.
You can still start with front hub only. Over 1000W it gives is very nice pull alone. 2wd of course climbs better.
Click to expand...

Well, yeah but then I have the same problem in back. I need to buy a wheel and freewheel (remeber, I'm bikeless right now so everything is an expense). The rear hub kits my builder showed me were complete wheels with freewheels. If I just power the front wheel I have to buy a rear wheel and freewheel that I might junk later. Again, tell me if I'm missing something. Oh, and yes, I was planning on using torque arms even on the steel frame.
 
Lunar Cappuccino said:
Eskimo said:
i mean i am thinking of ordering those Indian-style fenders myself :wink: One guy sells makes and sells them. They hide wheels pretty well.
Click to expand...

Oh, and yes, what are these Indian fenders?
Click to expand...


OK.

http://www.sickntwisteddesigns.net/fifeinstbecr.html
 
Sounds like you are more than competent to teach yourself bike mechanics. Assembling a bike from parts will take some time, and you will need to add some specialty bike tools to your kit. A very good spoke wrench is helpful. Often the stock spoke wrench doesn't fit a motor wheel very good. You can buy a small one, and file it bigger to fit your particular motor's nipples perfect. The multi size ones might have a notch that fits ok, but not perfect.

Were you live though, it should be possible to find what you need in a bike on the used market, rather than build up from scratch. You could start out by buying a fairly high quality bike on the used market, then transfer components to a surly frame a year or so down the road. Look for big flat space around the rear dropouts for bolting on torque plates.

How much time? That's a bit like asking how much will you spend on a camera. How much you got? Seriously, you can install a basic hubmotor kit to a bike in a day, provided you don't need to run to the store for one bolt or something. Half hour install? Sure, it's possible, but I always take longer so I don't screw it up. 2 hours usually does it for me.

But a build is often a lot more than just bolting on the motor. You can spend time custom fabricating torque arms or battery boxes. Again, how much time you got? That's how long it will take.

Try running 2000w, 48v 40 amps through the back wheel first before going to double motor. I bet it will be all you need.
 
Building a bike from a frameset, not only takes a lot of time but also much more money. A whole bike is worth less than the sum of its components, and when you build it is often that you start spending extra here and there for better components. Yet, if you have the money, it is the best way to have exactly the bike that you want.

Don't be fooled thinking that 2WD is more power. First you don't want a lot of power on the front anyway for it makes a very dangerous bike to ride, and second you don't want the extra weight of a 2nd motor on a bike that will have to carry batteries. 4 Kw is low power and easily achieved with most single DD hub, big hubs can be fed bursts of 10+ Kw for hard acceleration or true climbing power. The best performance and handling is achieved with a rear motor, batteries in frame and/or on the front, and the lightest weight that you can build.
 
Did you catch the part where he said he wasn't in it to careen around like a drunken teenager? (That's your department, MadRhino.) When riding normally, 2WD is reasonable and eases the heat load and torque anchoring requirements per motor. My highest power e-bikes have had front motors with 35A controllers. No problems.
 
dogman said:
Sounds like you are more than competent to teach yourself bike mechanics. Assembling a bike from parts will take some time, and you will need to add some specialty bike tools to your kit. A very good spoke wrench is helpful. Often the stock spoke wrench doesn't fit a motor wheel very good. You can buy a small one, and file it bigger to fit your particular motor's nipples perfect. The multi size ones might have a notch that fits ok, but not perfect.

Were you live though, it should be possible to find what you need in a bike on the used market, rather than build up from scratch. You could start out by buying a fairly high quality bike on the used market, then transfer components to a surly frame a year or so down the road. Look for big flat space around the rear dropouts for bolting on torque plates.

How much time? That's a bit like asking how much will you spend on a camera. How much you got? Seriously, you can install a basic hubmotor kit to a bike in a day, provided you don't need to run to the store for one bolt or something. Half hour install? Sure, it's possible, but I always take longer so I don't screw it up. 2 hours usually does it for me.

But a build is often a lot more than just bolting on the motor. You can spend time custom fabricating torque arms or battery boxes. Again, how much time you got? That's how long it will take.

Try running 2000w, 48v 40 amps through the back wheel first before going to double motor. I bet it will be all you need.
Click to expand...

This is actually the conclusion I reached on my own today before I read your post :) One motor is lighter than two and in fact it seems I might be able to get away with running 2kW through the same kind of motor that I was looking at for 1kW. Which brings me to my next questions:

1. Motors: need a gearless rear hub motor that can take 2000W without turning into a cloud of smoke on a steep hill. Any one have any suggestions?
2. Batteries: I'm thinking of going with something in the area of 50V and I want about 20Ah at least because I want range as well as hill climbing ability.
3. Controllers: Obviously to make about 2000W I need about 40A @ 50V.

You guys are all thinking about what I've been all day. Abandon the custom build and just get a nice 2000W rear drive system based on a used bike going. I think if I can figure out what motor, controller and battery to go with I'm done except for some work with the wrench.
 
Another option I'm mulling over is buying a 7 speed pedal forward style bike like a Townie from Electra and using that as the starter platform. I'm going to junk the front 3 gear rings on a mountain bike anyway since I only want one shifter and a throttle to deal with. I actually tested a Townie and was impressed. They seem very strong (steel frame) and I like being able to put my feet down at a light as well as the nice padded comfortable seat. Sure it'll void the warranty but the things are only around $350 anyway. The only thing I didn't like was that they do not seem to use disc brakes. Is that something that can be worked around? I think once the rear wheel is replaced by a motor with a space for a disc I can at least have one in the rear but I really want one up front where all the stopping force is. Would a new fork work or do beachers use some unusual type of fork that can't be replaced with just anything. Also they're pretty and look cool as hell. Bonus point is that the company name already contains most of the word electric!
 
Lunar Cappuccino said:
One motor is lighter than two and in fact it seems I might be able to get away with running 2kW through the same kind of motor that I was looking at for 1kW. Which brings me to my next questions:

1. Motors: need a gearless rear hub motor that can take 2000W without turning into a cloud of smoke on a steep hill. Any one have any suggestions?
2. Batteries: I'm thinking of going with something in the area of 50V and I want about 20Ah at least because I want range as well as hill climbing ability.
3. Controllers: Obviously to make about 2000W I need about 40A @ 50V.

You guys are all thinking about what I've been all day. Abandon the custom build and just get a nice 2000W rear drive system based on a used bike going. I think if I can figure out what motor, controller and battery to go with I'm done except for some work with the wrench.
Click to expand...
A couple questions:
- how long and how steep is this hill. What street is it even?
- How much do you weigh roughly? This makes a difference for power required.

A couple suggestions:
- Find an older used steel hardtail mountain bike. Fine old bikes are available for almost no money. They are strong, have room for big tires and fenders, parts are cheap, what's not to like. I've picked up a couple early 90s US built lugged Trek 9xx series for under $100 each that needed only a chain and a bath. Used steel road bikes are expensive here in the bay area, because they are either "vintage" or ripe for fixey conversion. But so far, used steel mountain bikes are not yet fashionable.

- Rear gear motor, BPM or MAC is about as big as you can get and be even plausibly stealthy. BPM is so cheap you can buy two and just swap the innards if you ever smoke it. Unless your hill is just crazy or you weigh 300 lbs either of those will work if you pedal a bit.

- Find a wheel builder or learn how. You can build a bombproof front wheel for under $70 (Deore hub, double butted spokes from Dans Comp, Sun Rhynolite rim) and it will last essentially forever. The rear is almost free since you already have a hub and didn't pay extra to have a junk wheel shipped across an ocean.
 
Townies are not a bad choice. Big space for the battery, 48v 20 ah is hard to fit in most frames. 48v 15 ah will in many, and will give you a lot of range.

I found that for me, with a bad back, I couldn't ride a pedal forward without more back pain. Bear that in mind if you also framed houses for 30 years.

Other good candidates are the typical $300 msrp new mountain bikes, often steel framed, and beach cruisers that come with a 7 speed derailleur and V brakes.

The run of the mill direct drive motor when fed 2000w will get up 10% grades with no big problems. You'd have to pedal up some help for it if the hill is miles long. But my tests have gotten up 3 miles of 5-8% with no pedaling at all.
 
You need to define "big" in "big hill". A long 8% grade is a "big hill" for a pedaler but not for an ebike. I have one every day and it is no problem for my hub bike. However, a 15% grade is starting to get serious for an ebike. If you have to do long trips at 15+% grades, perhaps low (gear) and slow is the way to go. In which case, you might look at a mid-drive. This is where they rule. They are, generally, more of a hassle to set up and can be subject to more maintenance but on a seriously steep hill, they just keep chugging along, not even breaking a sweat.

I have a suspension bike with a hub drive and a long bike with a mid-drive. For convenience, simplicity, and nimble-ness, the hub motor is hard to beat. A lot of fun and blasts up long, relatively low grades. However, add 50 lbs of groceries and 15-20% grades, and the mid-drive long bike is king.

As you say, it is all physics. The high power you need to go up a steep hill goes down if you can vary the speed with gears. Just a thought.
 
Chalo said:
Did you catch the part where he said he wasn't in it to careen around like a drunken teenager? (That's your department, MadRhino.)
Click to expand...
Drunken teenagers have no chance to keep up with me, and I wouldn't sell one of my bikes to any of them for they would kill themselves on it. I teach the kids and they need to be straight and clever to deserve it.

Performance has nothing to do with riding style, but good riding style sure does help to handle performance.

Chalo said:
My highest power e-bikes have had front motors with 35A controllers. No problems.
Click to expand...
No problems with rim brakes, of course :wink:
 
pdf said:
You need to define "big" in "big hill". A long 8% grade is a "big hill" for a pedaler but not for an ebike. I have one every day and it is no problem for my hub bike. However, a 15% grade is starting to get serious for an ebike. If you have to do long trips at 15+% grades, perhaps low (gear) and slow is the way to go. In which case, you might look at a mid-drive. This is where they rule. They are, generally, more of a hassle to set up and can be subject to more maintenance but on a seriously steep hill, they just keep chugging along, not even breaking a sweat.

I have a suspension bike with a hub drive and a long bike with a mid-drive. For convenience, simplicity, and nimble-ness, the hub motor is hard to beat. A lot of fun and blasts up long, relatively low grades. However, add 50 lbs of groceries and 15-20% grades, and the mid-drive long bike is king.

As you say, it is all physics. The high power you need to go up a steep hill goes down if you can vary the speed with gears. Just a thought.
Click to expand...

Sorry guys, I guess I've been vague. Details:

1. Let's say the start point (see footnote) is https://plus.google.com/114104276190980217107/about?gl=us&hl=en, end point is https://plus.google.com/109551451458555091470/about?gl=US&hl=en-US. I would give you precise figures on elevation gain but google terrain view is rather useless. I can't read the numbers and zooming in just takes you to street view. I estimate about 200 meter gain. I don't know the grade exactly but most of it is about like the less steep first part of the video posted here where he's out in the desert with the dogs and passes a guy in a blue coat.

2. I weigh about 85kg but am losing weight fast (strict calorie count diet and exercise). My target weigth is what I weighed in college when I lifted weights and ran every other day - about 70kg

I've though of mid drives and am aware of the advantages of driving the wheel through gearing but as you say, more trouble to set up and maintain. This is Portland, OR, BTW so the weather here will quickly destroy anything that's too vulnerable to grit and rain. I like the hubs because they're sealed. I plan to just bulldoze the disadvantages of hub motors away with wattage.

Footnote: For those of you who know the area - yes, I'm aware that the aerial tram makes the trip but I'm not really starting from CHH to get to the hospital. This is, however the extent of local relief, from the riverfront to the top, that is. So that's a worst case scenario but anything that can make that trip will work for my real commute.
 
Lunar Cappuccino said:
pdf said:
You need to define "big" in "big hill". A long 8% grade is a "big hill" for a pedaler but not for an ebike. I have one every day and it is no problem for my hub bike. However, a 15% grade is starting to get serious for an ebike. If you have to do long trips at 15+% grades, perhaps low (gear) and slow is the way to go. In which case, you might look at a mid-drive. This is where they rule. They are, generally, more of a hassle to set up and can be subject to more maintenance but on a seriously steep hill, they just keep chugging along, not even breaking a sweat.

I have a suspension bike with a hub drive and a long bike with a mid-drive. For convenience, simplicity, and nimble-ness, the hub motor is hard to beat. A lot of fun and blasts up long, relatively low grades. However, add 50 lbs of groceries and 15-20% grades, and the mid-drive long bike is king.

As you say, it is all physics. The high power you need to go up a steep hill goes down if you can vary the speed with gears. Just a thought.
Click to expand...

Sorry guys, I guess I've been vague. Details:

1. Let's say the start point (see footnote) is https://plus.google.com/114104276190980217107/about?gl=us&hl=en, end point is https://plus.google.com/109551451458555091470/about?gl=US&hl=en-US. I would give you precise figures on elevation gain but google terrain view is rather useless. I can't read the numbers and zooming in just takes you to street view. I estimate about 200 meter gain. I don't know the grade exactly but most of it is about like the less steep first part of the video posted here where he's out in the desert with the dogs and passes a guy in a blue coat.

2. I weigh about 85kg but am losing weight fast (strict calorie count diet and exercise). My target weigth is what I weighed in college when I lifted weights and ran every other day - about 70kg

I've though of mid drives and am aware of the advantages of driving the wheel through gearing but as you say, more trouble to set up and maintain. This is Portland, OR, BTW so the weather here will quickly destroy anything that's too vulnerable to grit and rain. I like the hubs because they're sealed. I plan to just bulldoze the disadvantages of hub motors away with wattage.

Footnote: For those of you who know the area - yes, I'm aware that the aerial tram makes the trip but I'm not really starting from CHH to get to the hospital. This is, however the extent of local relief, from the riverfront to the top, that is. So that's a worst case scenario but anything that can make that trip will work for my real commute.
Click to expand...

You can use mapmyride.com or Google Earth to view the elevation profile. That is the best way I know to estimate the grade. I'm too lazy to do it now, but that will tell you a lot about what to expect in terms of power. Without knowing the grade, you'd be shooting in the dark to some extent. I'm sure you know this, but basically, the heavier the motor, the more power/heat it can take. You can always overbuild and overpower to get wherever you want to go, but you might be disappointed with the result. When I was studying aeronautics in college, one of our professors would always say, "you can make a rock fly if you put a big enough engine on it". If you have significant distance at 15+% grade, you need to plan for it. For example, a 9C 2808 (a pretty fair and reasonably priced motor for moderately hilly terrain) will go less than a mile at a 15% grade before it overheats (according to ebikes.ca simulator). A more substantial motor will go longer of course. Anyway, my (unsolicited) advice would be to spend some time with the ebikes.ca simulator and Mapmyride or Google Earth to plan what will do the job. As you say, you can always throw power at it, but to be sure you will not end up with something that doesn't work you will need to oversize everything and you will end up with a bike that is heavier and more $$ than need be.

As I say, this is worth what you paid and your mileage may vary. Good luck either way and let us know what you do.
 
Lunar Cappuccino said:
1. Let's say the start point (see footnote) is https://plus.google.com/114104276190980217107/about?gl=us&hl=en, end point is https://plus.google.com/109551451458555091470/about?gl=US&hl=en-US. I would give you precise figures on elevation gain but google terrain view is rather useless. I can't read the numbers and zooming in just takes you to street view. I estimate about 200 meter gain.

2. I weigh about 85kg but am losing weight fast (strict calorie count diet and exercise). My target weigth is what I weighed in college when I lifted weights and ran every other day - about 70kg

Footnote: For those of you who know the area - yes, I'm aware that the aerial tram makes the trip but I'm not really starting from CHH to get to the hospital. This is, however the extent of local relief, from the riverfront to the top, that is. So that's a worst case scenario but anything that can make that trip will work for my real commute.
Click to expand...
I've ridden down that, and it's steep, but I don't think it goes over 12% and probably is more like 9%. Given your weight I think a BPM will climb it, especially one of the slower windings (ie code 12, not the default code 10). You have the advantage that Portland is cool which helps. I'm assuming you can throw 100 watts of pedaling into the mix, it makes a big difference on steep hills, the more the merrier.

If a single BPM does not work, add a small front hub motor like an SWXK. Or oil cool the BPM. But I don't think either of these should be necessary and the simulator seems to agree.
 
Thanks to -dg and pdf for the tips. I'm playing with the e-bike simulator right now. I thought Google earth could do elevations but was in a hurry. I didn't know about mapmyride. BTW - I can't seem to find a FAQ on gearless hub motors on here. There's one on geared ones but not gearless. BTW - could people perhaps let me know what motor/controller/battery/wheel-size combos they're using and an idea of the results (maybe a 1-10 scale with 1 being very bad). Also, maybe a 1-10 scale for your terrain, with 1 being Florida and 10 being, say, well Oregon in the Cascades maybe. I'm compiling a spreadsheet and trying to deduce what the best combo for my needs might be. I know some of you have that in your sigs but I still don't know a lot of the jargon.

Edit: OK, I see some of the direct drive motors actually are in the FAQ
 
OK, I can't install Google Earth right now on my Ubuntu setup without upgrading a ton of other stuff so I went with mapmyride. The real commute is 4.31km and 155m elevation gain. There's a lot of 6-14% grade for the second half. I would provide a link to it but I just joined MMR and don't know how. The average grade is 5.8%. The route I posted above is 1.89km with 147m gain and the grade basically increases the whole way to end at 20%! The average grade for that one is 7.6%
 
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