500W Direct Drive vs Mac 500/1000w (Em3ev) + Other Questions

Hi.

I thought I had decided on a 500w direct drive kit from Em3ev along with the 50V Samsung battery from them. But I started looking at the Mac motor and Ping batteries, which means I have a lot more questions.

Firstly. How does the Mac motor compare to the Direct Drive one in terms of reliability. I have heard that gearless motors are more reliable. I wouldn't want to choose the more powerful motor but have it break.

Secondly. Is there a noticeable difference between the two motors in terms of top speed and torque. Top speed is more important than torque but I would be interested to know which one has more.

My final question is about the battery I would like to use. It's the 48V 10Ah LiFePO4 from PingBatteries. I need to know, would this battery work okay with the Mac motor?

Em3ev recommend the 9Fet 30A (36-75v) controller for use with the 320rpm 8T motor (the one I would get as it would reach the speed I want, 30mph). I don't want to get a controller that would damage or shorten the life of the battery.

Here are the specifications of the Battery

Specifications:
Suitable Wattage of Motor: up to 550 Watt, 450 Watt suggested
Applications: E-Bike, Electric Bike, E-Scooter, Electric Scooter
Voltage: 48 Volts
Capacity: 10 Amp Hours
Dimension: 200x105x150 mm / 7.9x4.1x5.9 inches
Weight: 4.90 kg / 10.8 lbs
Charging Voltage: 60-61 Volts
Charging Current: <5 Amps
Rated Discharging Amperage: 10 Amps
Max Continuous Discharging Amperage: 20 Amps
Maximum Discharging Current: 40 Amps
Discharging Cut-off Protection: 30 Amps
Lifecycle of the whole pack: >85% capacity after 1000 cycles. Lifecycle of single cell: >85% capacity after 1500 cycles, >70% capacity after 3000 cycles. (<1C discharge rate and <1C charge rate)

Thanks

If you get the 48v 10 amp hour ping battery you'll be limited to about 20 amps max continuous discharge. The 30 amp controller might be pushing the battery a little too hard depending on how and where you ride. You don't want to be pulling 30 amps continuous from the battery but brief bursts might be ok. Personally I'd lean towards a 15 amp hour ping if using a 30 amp controller.

I can't really comment on the durability of a geared motor but I can vouch for the two direct drive motors I've had for the past 5 years or so. I've used both my motors year round through all weather conditions and they are even stored outdoor unsheltered and both still running like new.

In general you'll get far better torque from a geared motor vs a direct drive motor at the same power level assuming both have a similar top speed.

Thanks.

Em3ev recommend the 9fet 30A controller but say the 6fet 25A would be OK. I think I'll just try save enough money for the 15Ah battery and stick with the recommended controller.

Do you have any idea what range and I would get with the Mac motor and 48V 15Ah battery? The top speed of 31mph (According to Em3ev) is exactly what I wanted so that's fine. I'm just unsure about range now. Anything over 12-13 miles would be great.

My MAC 8t top speed on 44v liPo is just under 35mph with 26x2.4 tires bike wieghs 70 rider 170. 35 is pushing it with hard pedaling. so on 50v it will do 30mph no problem with enought Ah or high C rated battery

Ping has great products but not 48v10Ah for a 30 amp controller. it will power it fine for maybe the first 2 or 3 months then you will see damage to cells. So if it's a Ping get 15Ah, 10Ah is margmal for that kinda power.

DD are simpler than a geared motor nd will have abpout the same top end but won't do hills as well as a geared will.
It's hard to beat a good DD for reliablity. Abouit the only thing to do is tighten the spokes. OH that's all I've had to do to my MACs. Since I learned what not to do with them.

Either one from Cell_Man are a good choice. He does a great job with all his products. Fair prices and HONEST shipping costs.

Milage varies, Oh that's MPg not mpAh. On 15Ah if not flat out you should get what you are after. But not knowing you wieght, buid of bike and your terrain, it should be enough.

Dan

That's very good to know Dan, thanks.

I chose the Ping batteries so I could buy 25V one from him in the future and use it in series to go even faster

Do you think I'll need the upgraded BMS?


Oh and I way 8.5 stone, that's around 120 pounds I think. Not sure how much my bike weighs.

In the long run I think you'll definitely be happier with the 15 amp hour battery and the 30 amp controller. I think you could expect very close to 12 to 13 miles at close to 30mph on flat ground ideal conditions. If you go just a tiny bit slower say 25mph your range would go up closer to 16 miles. These are just very rough estimates. If you pedal even casually you'll increase your range by a fair amount. You could easily stretch the range over 20 miles with some modest pedal effort while going near 25mph most of the way.

You should consider getting a power meter somewhere to see your power draw as you ride it'll really help you get the most from your battery. You'll be able to see when the motor is pulling a lot of power and back off the throttle and adjust accordingly.

I've got the MAC 8T motor, 9 FET controller and 48V (16S) 9.2Ah LiFePh4 battery from Cellman. It's fitted to a 26" wheel hardtail Trek and does 50kph on the flat, and will sustain it for about 30km with me providing some pedal assist. That includes a couple of small but steep hills which it hauls up at 40kph. I'm very happy with the kits performance and Cellmans service. A 15Ah battery should take you at least 30-35km i would think, particularly if you don't have big hills and assist with some pedal input. Obviously it'll go even further if you govern the speed to less than 50kph.

I don't recommend the ping with a 30 amps controller at all. For sure a 10 ah size would die. and 48v 20 ah is just too big to carry well.

You do need the big amps controller with the faster winding motors. So I'd recommend going with EM3ev's largest triangle battery, for the higher discharge rate of the cells. There went cheap, but 30 mph cheap is still possible. Wesenwell has the dope on which ebay sellers have the fast winding dd motors that are inexpensive. Might PM him and ask about a European version of the Yes kit.

48v 15 ah ping would go well with a 2807 winding dd motor, and a 20 amps controller.

Get's damn complicated, eh?

Why would you not recommend the 48v 15Ah Ping with the Mac motor and 30A controller, would it be bad for the battery?

I really like the Mac motor as it has high speed and torque but it will be expensive with the Triangle battery pack.


Would the 50v 16.4Ah Rectangle Samsung pack work okay? It's a bit cheaper, still expensive though.

I wanted the Ping because it would be easy to add a 24v 15Ah in the future to get even more speed.

I just had another thought. Em3ev say the 6fet 25A controller would be okay with the Mac motor but the 9fet 30A would be better. Would the 6fet 25A Controller work with the 15Ah Ping without damaging it?

I'll be pedaling all the time too and I'll only be going 18-22mph most of the time.

The ping battery is rated to discharge at 1C so a 15 amp hour battery ideally shouldn't be discharged above 15 amps continuous. It's capable of 2C max so that's 30 amps but it would be pushing the battery a bit and could end up reducing the cycle life. The em3ev battery would be a better choice because it will easily handle the 30 amp controller, it will also be lighter weight.

The Samsung battery from Em3ev says discharge Current, recommended 35A or less. So will this one be okay with the 30A controller?

It's a bit big but it would fit in my frame I think.

Do you know of any 12v or 24v Samsung 14.35Ah batteries I could get to use in series to make it faster? (in the future)

josaphine30 said:

I just had another thought. Em3ev say the 6fet 25A controller would be okay with the Mac motor but the 9fet 30A would be better. Would the 6fet 25A Controller work with the 15Ah Ping without damaging it?

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Yes. Just. Mr. Ping is the leader in low cost LiFePO4 batteries, mostly through his excilent customer service. The batteries can handle up to 2.5C in theory, but those who have used them, Like Dogman, Have found they don't hold up very well long term when used at or above 2C. So a 48V15A battery could handle 25 amps, but would be stressed at 30 amps.
The batteries sold by Paul/Cell_man at EM3ev are better batteries, although they cost more.

The Caveat here is that for the speed you want, you realy need the 30 amp controller, so you realy need a better battery.

That "C" means capacity, and the number before it is the multiplyer. 2C means Two times the Capacity. A 48volt 10Amp battery rated for 2C could power up to a 20 amp controller. (10 amps x 2 = 20amps)


As for your earlier question, A direct drive is more robust than a geared drive like the MAC, but that doesn't always mean more reliable. A plastic cup is more robust than a glass, but that doesn't mean you can't rely on the glass to always hold your juice morning after morning. It just means that the day you have an accident and knock it off the table, it won't survive as well. And if you decide you want to throw it against the wall, the plastic cup will just bounce and will continue to serve as a cup for many more years, while the glass will just break.
The MAC motor should serve for many years/decades without trouble if it's used propperly and not abused. A direct drive will serve many more years/decades, but will hold up to abuse.

josaphine30 said:

The Samsung battery from Em3ev says discharge Current, recommended 35A or less. So will this one be okay with the 30A controller
Do you know of any 12v or 24v Samsung 14.35Ah batteries I could get to use in series to make it faster? (in the future)

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That battery should be good for the 30 amp controller.

You could also get 44.4v nominal 10 amp hour battery made from Turnigy lipo packs plus a charger for under $350 shipped. That battery will easily run 30 amps, it's light and compact. It's also simple to increase the voltage or capacity later on. Just use a decent balance charger to charge them and store them somewhere safe when unattended.

The 48v 15 ah pings work ok with 20 amps controllers, but a 25 amp should work ok. But less ok with that fast winding motor.

But now that you say you will be riding less than 25 mph, why do you need a fast motor?

FWIW, the fast motors draw big amp spikes leaving a stop sign. It costs you range by wasting power into heat, and your battery will hate it. If you aren't going to cruise at 30 mph, then just get the slower rear dd motor. The way you make fast windings perform nice in 26" wheels is to throw heaps of power at them. This gets pricy for the battery.

That one will start up very nice from stop signs, and will take you farther, on a cheaper ping battery.

I've been speaking to my parents and they don't like the idea of me going 30mph on a bike so that's that messed up. I think they would be okay with a maximum speed of 25.

I would like to reach 25mph but still have quite a bit of torque. The 10T Mac motor will give me 25mph top speed but will it also give me more torque than the direct drive kit? (at whatever rpm it would need to be to reach 25mph)

I think I have decided on a battery too. The 50v 10.25Ah Samsung Rectangle Pack. The recommended discharge rate is 25A or less, so it would be fine with the 25A controller on the Mac motor. The ebikes.ca simulator says I will get a range of 13 miles, this is with the throttle at 100%. I wont be at 100% all the time and I'll be pedaling a little bit most of the time too so range isn't going to be an issue with this battery.

If the Mac motor is the one that will give me more torque then it's just reliability of the battery and motor that I am unsure about. Can anyone who has had experience with either the motor or battery tell me if you have had any problems with them? How long could I expect them both to last.

Just just received a kit from cellman so far like a great kit.
Installing it now with only a few problems and it is my first build.
Will have a full install report on the Mac 10 motor and kit when I have everything put together and figured out.
I feel the kit is high-quality and easy plug-and-play if you order everything from cellman.
Major problem for me was the brake caliber was catching on the hub and I had to realign everything took forever to get the spacing just right.

Yea that's the only thing I've noticed about the kit that may be a problem. I believe there is 15mm space between the hub and the inside of the disc, I'll have to measure my caliper today.

Did you get a battery from him too?

EM3ev's 10t mac kit with battery is a hard to beat combination for most riders. You don't need more unless you do severe steep hills.

10 t a much better choice then. Lots of people are very happy with them. The only mac I ever rode was the 8t, and it struck me as very sluggish to get moving, just like a fast wind (6t) dd motor. With what batteries cost, it's best to get a motor that doesn't waste your available range.

A slightly slower wind will ride much nicer in towns, and climb hills more efficiently. And 25 mph is still darn fast when you can keep it up for miles and miles and miles.

If you still like the ping better, a 15 ah ping will run the 10t motor ok with a 20-25 amps controller. With the amps spikes lessened by the slower motor, the ping will tolerate it. My experience with pings is they don't mind 15 amps draw continuous, but they hate a 30 amps spike.

If you get the cellman battery, it's higher discharge rate will be fine with the motor too, even though it's smaller.

I think that's it then. I'll get the Samsung battery and 10T Mac motor. It will be cheaper too as I will get it all from the same place.

Thanks for all the help.

josaphine30 said:

I've been speaking to my parents and they don't like the idea of me going 30mph on a bike so that's that messed up. I think they would be okay with a maximum speed of 25.

I would like to reach 25mph but still have quite a bit of torque. The 10T Mac motor will give me 25mph top speed but will it also give me more torque than the direct drive kit? (at whatever rpm it would need to be to reach 25mph)

I think I have decided on a battery too. The 50v 10.25Ah Samsung Rectangle Pack. The recommended discharge rate is 25A or less, so it would be fine with the 25A controller on the Mac motor. The ebikes.ca simulator says I will get a range of 13 miles, this is with the throttle at 100%. I wont be at 100% all the time and I'll be pedaling a little bit most of the time too so range isn't going to be an issue with this battery.

If the Mac motor is the one that will give me more torque then it's just reliability of the battery and motor that I am unsure about. Can anyone who has had experience with either the motor or battery tell me if you have had any problems with them? How long could I expect them both to last.

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You (and your parents) are aware of the 15mph speed limit in the UK?

Beyond that there is nothing to stop you getting a lower power controller now then upgrading to higher power one later if you find that you need/want it (or get a programmable one). Getting a battery that is above your minimum will mean that you will have the opportunity to get more performance later if needed. And it will be less stressed now so should last longer. Also a stressed battery will lose performance more quickly which includes lowering the range you have. Get a bit more battery than just enough to do what you want.