1200 km, 14 km of climbing in 90 hours - AM I MAD?

That's a big 4-day Audax cycle ride through Cork and Kerry next summer, and I am so tempted! I emailed expressing an interest, and the organisers seem happy to have me take part. 8)

Here's what's involved:

Audax is all about self-suffiency. There are no support vehicles so you have to do your own and find your own food (and in my case, charging points) along the way. It's not a race, so there are no prizes for finishing in a fast time, but the faster you go the more time you have for tea and cake - and sleep. :wink: . Some riders may spend twelve hours in the saddle on the longest days, others more than twenty.

Say you budget 16 hours a day travelling: that means an average speed of 12 and a half miles an hour. I think that's just about possible with my present kit. The only problem is that I'd need to spend the entire remaining 8 hours connected to a socket!

How fast you can go depends entirely on how fast you can charge. The ideal for me would be a battery that could supply 600 watt hours between stops and a charger that could fill it again in a hour, all in one neat package that I could just plug in and forget it until it was time to leave. I'd mount it on the bars, so I'm wondering if there was some way I could wire in the Cycleanalyst to record incoming charge? :?

The longest, steepest climb on the course is the Conor Pass; only 5.7%, but continuously at that for seven km. Will my MiniMight motor be able to handle that (I'm trying for an all-up weight under 115 kg)? I know from Justin simulator that an Ezee or a BMC Torque would be ideal, but I don't want to get anything heavier if I don't need it.

First, yes, you are mad, but that's ok--so are most of us here.

Second, that would be an interesting ride--I couldn't do it (unless I did it wholly electric), but I'd be interested to see what and who *would* accomplish it.

JennyB said:

. I'd mount it on the bars, so I'm wondering if there was some way I could wire in the Cycleanalyst to record incoming charge? :?

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Sure--if the CA is using an external shunt then simply connect the charger to the controller side of the shunt, and when you charge it records it as if you were using Regen--"negative" amps. The main amp reading will roll backwards down to (and probably past) zero as it reaches full charge. that's how I do mine.

If the CA is using the controllers shunt, then you just have to add charging wires inside the controller, one to the FET side pad of the shunt, and one to the Battery positive pad. Then it will read the power flowing back to the battery exactly as if it were regen current from the controller, just as with the external shunt.


The rest I don't know about. Charger to fast charge your pack is probably going to have to be bigger/heavier than your existing one, and/or have a pretty good cooling system (often a loud fan cuz it's moving a lot of air, but there's quiet ones that still do that in some sizes, for "silent PC" computers).

JennyB said:

...The ideal for me would be a battery that could supply 600 watt hours between stops and a charger that could fill it again in a hour...

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600wh is not that much. my a123 pouch cell 24s pack has 78v and 20ah. so it's around 1.5kwh. it can be charged in around 2h with a 10a charger which is an emc1000. if you don't need 78v and 12s lifepo4 is ok for you, that's something between 36v and 48v you would have a 40v 40ah pack that can get you very far if you keep motor below 1000w. the whole batter is 13kg. add 2kg for the charger.

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=38848&start=25#p691709

You just need something that can charge faster than a ping. But your ping can charge much faster than 8 hours.

You can get a 36v 5 amps charger, and fill that pack in closer to 4-5 hours. Something to consider if buying a new battery, the same watthour size in 48v will fill 25% faster. My ping 48v 15 ah pack filled in 3 hours, if I didn't let it have time to balance. Pings bms is the limiting factor btw, 5 amps input. But 5 amps of 48v is more watts than 36v.

The fastest charge would be with RC lipo, but not exactly plug and forget. However, my same old trusty ping 5 amps charger is what I use for my RC pack. Same old fill time, 3 hours. With separate packs, I can run two of those at once, and fill 48v 30 ah in 3 hours.

Measuring the charge in is easy with a stand alone CA, or you can use the cheap wattmeters you can get for 15-20 bucks us on ebay. The wattmeter is nice, particularly if you wish to get going again with more like a 90% charge. Soon as you see a 300w charger drop to 50w, no point in waiting another hour for the last 50wh. Charge partial, but more often, and your charger always runs at 300w.

Overnight stop, then you can get your full balanced charge.

JennyB said:

How fast you can go depends entirely on how fast you can charge. The ideal for me would be a battery that could supply 600 watt hours between stops and a charger that could fill it again in a hour, all in one neat package that I could just plug in and forget it until it was time to leave. I'd mount it on the bars, so I'm wondering if there was some way I could wire in the Cycleanalyst to record incoming charge? :?

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600Wh @ 48v = 12.5Ah.

That's a fairly powerful charger, but you also need to consider whether the battery will take a 1C charge.

Also, most chargers use a constant current mode for bulk charging, and a constant voltage mode once it gets near the top of its charge. What this means is that a 5A charger might do 80% of the charge at 5A, but then the remaining charge between 4.9A and 0.1A. So you could be getting 80% of your charge in the first 90 minutes, and still be waiting the next 2-3 hours for the charge to complete. If you can get the CA to record your incoming charge, it would make your charge time more effective. You'd just stay until you got the bulk charge, then go, preferring to take another short break again later when the battery gets low.

Yes is the short answer.

That's three and three-quarter days to cover 1,200 km which works out at 320 km per day.

You really need to be motoring at around 30kph on average to make it doable. That's ten hours, 40 minutes a day in the saddle which allows you time to eat and stop off. You can't afford to spend 16-hours for the guts of four days in the saddle. With such a long distance to cover any edge at all will be a big advantage. If you could lose an kilo or two, provided you have excess weight that you can lose in the first place, that would help. You could carry glueless patches - a lighter pump, clothes, fastest tyres etc. Every little... Or you could even use Schwalbe marathon plus tyres and bet on no getting no punctures and risk going without a pump or puncture repair kit.

Your biggest problem will be pacing yourself. Fatigue will be an issue as your body will probably be very conservative in its feedback. Contrary to the popular myth it is fatigue not lactic acid that causes that burning sensation. Fatigue will probably cut-in more prematurely than it would if you were replicating the event in training as your threshold would be lower. If your training hard your body would be much more aware of its limits.

Here are some good articles on fatigue by people who know what they are talking about.

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2008/04/fatigue-series-introduction/

Pacing will be critical and it's important that you don't start off too fast. You want to begin at a lower pace to your ideal average speed and gradually increase it. Maintaining a reserve until the latter stages. However, as this is a multi-day event you should always keep something in reserve until the very last day.

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2013/05/pacing-fatigue-and-the-brain-lessons-from-london/

Final word of advice make sure you go easy on the water. Only drink to thirst. If you take too much it can cause an electrolyte imbalance, causing a heart attack. A normal person can process between 800 and 1,000 ml but strenuous exercise reduces this figure drastically. People can easily run marathons without drinking any water and in fact before the drinks company sponsored 'research' that was a common occurrence. I strongly suspect that water intake played a role in the death of guy in my year a few months ago. He was running a half-marathon and had a heart attack.

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2007/11/sports-drinks-sweat-and-electrolytes/

Two other posts that are helpful:

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2007/11/muscle-cramps-part-i/

and

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2013/01/dangerous-exercise-the-hype-of-dehydration-heat-stroke/.

Your a human and of all the animals your body is the best built for endurance feats. Of course you can do it. It will be tough and you will have to think about your strategy carefully but you can do it.

Just thinking about the logistics of such a challenge. You would probably need to consume at least 3,000 kilocalories per day whilst cycling. You can eat the other half while off the bike. That's a lot of food to carry with you for four days.

One solution would be to send supplies to Parcel Motel locations along your route. You post them away and pick them up at planned stops. There are 12 spots in Cork and Kerry so you are bound to pass a few along the way.

http://www.parcelmotel.com/locations.html

Good luck.

Thanks for all the advice, folks

Logistics shouldn't be a big problem. The event is based on two centres, Midleton and Killarney, with beds prebooked and a (small) bag transfer if needed. First day is a 360km loop from Mildeton through Waterford and the Glen of Aherlow. Day 2 is 350km around the Cork coast to Killarney. Day 4 is the big one: 350km round the Ring of Kerry and Dingle, returning through Tralee, with some nasty-looking hills in the final leg. Day 4 is a 140km run back to Midleton via Millstreet and Mallow.

Looks like I'll need a new battery anyway. The old Ping is now tripping out at 12ah. I think instead of one big battery and charger I'll get a pair of NMCs in parallel, about 48v 15ah, each with its own charger, on the basis that one on its own should suffice for any normal ride.

the ping packs can be repaired by removing the cells that die and replacing them with other cells from parts batteries that still can store the full charge so the pack will hold the full capacity again.

Joseph C. said:

You would probably need to consume at least 3,000 kilocalories per day whilst cycling. You can eat the other half while off the bike. That's a lot of food to carry with you for four days.

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Where are you getting your numbers from? 3000 kilocalories is 3,000,000 calories. No human could eat that much, that's 3000 calories a day for 1000 days. I think you have your units wrong

If pedaling hard I would suspect the daily calorie count could be higher based on the persons size. I have a friend who is 6'5" and weighs 220lbs who does triathlons and he has told me when training he can eat 5000-7000 calories per day.

zombiess said:

Where are you getting your numbers from? 3000 kilocalories is 3,000,000 calories. No human could eat that much, that's 3000 calories a day for 1000 days. I think you have your units wrong

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1 food calorie = 1000 scientific calories.

My bet is that he's an engineer or a scientist of some sort.

There was a joke going around about how it takes more energy to eat ice cream than you get from it based on the same misunderstanding. They calculated the calories needed to heat -4*c ice cream to 37*c body temp using a scientific calorie, then read the food calorie off the side of the ice cream tub.

Sunder said:

zombiess said:

Where are you getting your numbers from? 3000 kilocalories is 3,000,000 calories. No human could eat that much, that's 3000 calories a day for 1000 days. I think you have your units wrong

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1 food calorie = 1000 scientific calories.

My bet is that he's an engineer or a scientist of some sort.

There was a joke going around about how it takes more energy to eat ice cream than you get from it based on the same misunderstanding. They calculated the calories needed to heat -4*c ice cream to 37*c body temp using a scientific calorie, then read the food calorie off the side of the ice cream tub.

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You are probably correct. I just did some digging around and saw that 1 kilocalorie = 1 Calorie. I've never seen someone use kilocalorie when talking about food before. Maybe it's an Irish/UK thing? I know metric inches are smaller than US inches

zombiess said:

You are probably correct. I just did some digging around and saw that 1 kilocalorie = 1 Calorie. I've never seen someone use kilocalorie when talking about food before. Maybe it's an Irish/UK thing? I know metric inches are smaller than US inches

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Nothing like variety.

I'm after checking the labels on some food items to make sure. Food here is measured in either kJ or kcals. I assume it is EU-wide. Just looked it up to make sure and it does stand for kilocalorie. It avoids confusion between calorie and Calorie.

3,000 kcals while on the bike with the other half being eaten during the day. I'd say she would need 6,000 a day minimum.

I think you're mad, but I also think my father who is an ultramarathon runner in his 60s is also mad. (as in running for 6-8 days straight)

So long as you ask others who do such events about the best methods to pace yourself, you should be fine. No luck required.

Architectonic said:

I think you're mad, but I also think my father who is an ultramarathon runner in his 60s is also mad. (as in running for 6-8 days straight)

So long as you ask others who do such events about the best methods to pace yourself, you should be fine. No luck required.

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As I said, methods vary. The maximum speed between controls is about 18mph, but some go faster and take a break en route. Others just keep plodding on, with as little as 3 hours a day in total off the bike. I think my natural pace is around 15mph, which would mean I'd do the toughest day in 15 hours on the bike and use around 2kWh. Unfortunately, with my present setup that would mean I'd need to spend more than 8 hours charging.

As far as I can see, NMC can't be charged significantly faster, but if I had some quality LiFePo that could be charged at 600 watts or more it needn't weigh much more than I have at present, and I could look forward to 4 hours in bed at the end of the day! 8)

I really don't want to go faster or to carry more, so for now I've taken the motor of the bike and am seeing which of the local hills I can still climb.

you can charge while you sleep. the BMS will prevent it from overcharging and you should not have to watch it. if you can isolate the poor cells in the pack and replace them you should be able to restore almost all the original capacity and i see no reason you should not charge at 1-1.5C since the ping packs discharge at that rate easily. the charge rate slows down a lot when it gets close to full where the excessive charge rate would be a problem.

You might consider a battery fabbed using high-continuous-discharge rate (10C ~= 22A) INR18650-20R cells. Although the specified 'normal' charge rate for INR18650-20R is 0.5C, the Samsung spec allows a maximum charge rate of 2C (for 2Ah cell = 4A) with an accompanying small degradation in resulting discharge capacity to 98% (not noticeable).

Paul at EM3EV is selling these cells and can build a pack to your V/Ah specification, although he probably won't warranty the battery at these more extreme charge rates. On the other hand - these are nice cells and should give good service. This might be a way to press a new replacement pack occasionally for marathons and use it more conservatively on a daily basis to prolong its life.

Also - Grin tech is poised to release their new 'Satiator' programmable chargers which look very attractive for touring. These are 360W units that allow programming various voltages and charge rates - this should give you about 7A at 50v. So, if you have a 14Ah battery, a couple paralleled up should get you charged in an hour. Using a more aggressive charger could cut that in half, but the Grin units appear to be waterproof, lightweight, and designed for road vibration. Using a more conservative charge program in the Satiator would allow you to use the same charger for daily overnight charging without investing in an alternate lower rate unit.

Anyhow - just some thoughts....

teklektik said:

You might consider a battery fabbed using high-continuous-discharge rate (10C ~= 22A) INR18650-20R cells. Although the specified 'normal' charge rate for INR18650-20R is 0.5C, the Samsung spec allows a maximum charge rate of 2C (for 2Ah cell = 4A) with an accompanying small degradation in resulting discharge capacity to 98% (not noticeable).

Paul at EM3EV is selling these cells and can build a pack to your V/Ah specification, although he probably won't warranty the battery at these more extreme charge rates. On the other hand - these are nice cells and should give good service. This might be a way to press a new replacement pack occasionally for marathons and use it more conservatively on a daily basis to prolong its life.

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Interesting, but is that 2% degradation per 2C cycle, making 25% loss in just 16 cycles? I don't need 2C charging, but 1C would be nice - otherwise I'd have to carry an extra 5kg or so of battery to support the same charging rate.

Also - Grin tech is poised to release their new 'Satiator' programmable chargers which look very attractive for touring. These are 360W units that allow programming various voltages and charge rates - this should give you about 7A at 50v. So, if you have a 14Ah battery, a couple paralleled up should get you charged in an hour. Using a more aggressive charger could cut that in half, but the Grin units appear to be waterproof, lightweight, and designed for road vibration. Using a more conservative charge program in the Satiator would allow you to use the same charger for daily overnight charging without investing in an alternate lower rate unit.

Anyhow - just some thoughts....

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I really looks like the parts are coming together! 8) I might get away with using just one Satiator, but if I could use two, that's 2-3 hours a day that I would otherwise spend waiting on charge freed up for other use!

I'm planning to go car-free next year, so I'm looking to build a bike for everyday transport as well as adventure. I'm going thinking of a classic singlespeed winter training/urban cross/touring bike something like this:



At 57, I no longer care about spinning much over 20 mph, but I'd like enough power to get me up anything reasonable at as close to 15mph as possible.

JennyB said:

Interesting, but is that 2% degradation per 2C cycle, making 25% loss in just 16 cycles? I don't need 2C charging, but 1C would be nice - otherwise I'd have to carry an extra 5kg or so of battery to support the same charging rate.

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The normal charger cutoff will leave the battery at 98% capacity every time. EM3EV recommends running these cells at 80% capacity - charge to 90%, discharge to 10% - to extend the lifetime number of charge cycles. You can run them harder if you wish - which might be handy during a marathon. His 6A chargers have an appropriate switch to set the rate to 100%, 90%, or 'storage' but these are just different cutoff voltages. His chargers would certainly be less expensive than Grin's, but would lack the weather resistance and vibration proofing. The Satiators could presumably be programmed up with the same cutoff voltage choices.

JennyB said:

At 57, I no longer care about spinning much over 20 mph, but I'd like enough power to get me up anything reasonable at as close to 15mph as possible.

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I believe you live in the land of EU regulation and pedalecs, so you might need to get some motor advice from the Euro folks. It's a different world over here...

On the other hand, if you have some bucks to burn and power ratings aren't a big issue, the new Grin Tech eZee V2 might be worth a look. It just appeared in the simulator and has high torque and some impressive 83% efficiency ratings which would be useful for your marathon runs. I haven't run one - just throwing it out there. These were developed for Grin by eZee and I don't believe they are available elsewhere... a bit pricey, but reputedly very high quality...

teklektik said:

The normal charger cutoff will leave the battery at 98% capacity every time. EM3EV recommends running these cells at 80% capacity - charge to 90%, discharge to 10% - to extend the lifetime number of charge cycles. You can run them harder if you wish - which might be handy during a marathon. His 6A chargers have an appropriate switch to set the rate to 100%, 90%, or 'storage' but these are just different cutoff voltages. His chargers would certainly be less expensive than Grin's, but would lack the weather resistance and vibration proofing. The Satiators could presumably be programmed up with the same cutoff voltage choices.

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80% should be plenty. I'll only be carrying enough battery to get easily to the next meal. There's no way I could take enough to ride through the day and only recharge at night.

I believe you live in the land of EU regulation and pedalecs, so you might need to get some motor advice from the Euro folks. It's a different world over here...

On the other hand, if you have some bucks to burn and power ratings aren't a big issue, the new Grin Tech eZee V2 might be worth a look. It just appeared in the simulator and has high torque and some impressive 83% efficiency ratings which would be useful for your marathon runs. I haven't run one - just throwing it out there. These were developed for Grin by eZee and I don't believe they are available elsewhere... a bit pricey, but reputedly very high quality...

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That seems to be exactly what I'm looking for, running at 36v 25a. I think the best way to make distance comfortably and efficiently is to stay as close as possible to your cruising speed. That's why I don't need more than 36 volts, and a singlespeed will do me nicely. I'm aiming for simpler, tougher and faster up hills than what I've got now, while being more comfortable to pedal.

I love what you've done with the Yuba, BTW. So far, I've just been riding lashups - time for some QUALITY!

Sounds like you have the ability to put in a little extra money, which can be good from a Quality of Life perspective. If you go with an ebikes.ca, EM3EV, or Lyen Infineon controller, you can get plug-and-play connector for a Cycle Analyst V3. This will get you Ah and all manner of monitoring which may prove useful during your marathons to budget your power or pour it on if it looks like you will have a surplus for some leg of the run (no point in showing up with unspent electrons!).

There are other means to monitor, but the point here is that the V3 is not primarily a monitoring device - it's a control device that sits in between your throttle and the controller and lets you hook up other stuff. In your case, I'm thinking of PAS. It will support either torque-based sensors (more assist according to RPM and pedal force) or simple PAS wheels (more assist according to RPM). I frankly was not a big believer, but I was completely sold on the different riding experience after adding it to my V3. Since you are thinking of going 'auto-free', this might make your bike 'nicer' for daily use.

This, of course, can be added at any time and could be gotten from Grin Tech director or perhaps a European reseller - cycle-analyst.de is such a retailer and who also sells plug-and play pots and such to use as the 'PAS Assist Level' adjustment if you don't want to cook your own.

Again, there are Euro folks who might be able to step up with specialty controller recommendations with integrated PAS, but since you are thinking of a higher powered unit (relative to EU restrictions) and a Grin Tech motor, one-stop-shopping comes to mind....

OK, this is ON!

New battery coming from Schwibsi, chargers and other bits from Cellman. In the meantime I've been getting in some 100k+ unassisted rides. Finding it easy so long as I don't attack the hills too hard, but, boy, is it slow! :lol:

Strange to see a uk organisation using the registered name of a french company. A cycling group using the name of a drivers group infact. Although loudspeaker drivers to oem's mostly

friendly1uk said:

Strange to see a uk organisation using the registered name of a french company. A cycling group using the name of a drivers group infact. Although loudspeaker drivers to oem's mostly

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I think you'll find the cyclists got there first.

From Wikipedia:

In the late nineteenth century Italy, day-long "challenge" sports became popular. Participants aimed to cover as much distance as possible and prove themselves audax ("audacious"). The first recorded audax cycling event took place on June 12, 1897, twelve Italian cyclists attempted the challenge of cycling from Rome to Naples, a distance of 230 km, during daylight hours.

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Time for an update. I am definitely mad! :lol:

I've lost a lot of weight - back under 90 kg for the first time in at least 5 years - got a lot fitter and a bit faster. Bought a decent bike at the end of March and have put well over 1000km on it, including a 200k and a 300k Audax. I'm still very slow up the hills, but I can keep up a rolling average just over 20kph all day. I even finished the hillier 300k at a slightly higher average because I was riding it more at my own pace and not constantly trying to chase back onto the wheel of slightly faster riders. There's a 400k coming up at the end of the month. We'll see how that goes.

With assistance, I find 25kph possible using about 5 wh/km over even the toughest conditions. To ride a 400k without en route recharging I'd need 2kwh - about 12kg - of batteries. Better to take some breaks during the day and recharge at 420 watts. So now the big ride is beginning to look (barely) possible for me unassisted. With batteries, and arranging for charging stops, I'd get round in about the same time each day, but have maybe three hours more off the bike.

It's been fun storming up the hills with lots of power, but I paid the price yesterday when the clutch in my motor broke. I should have limited the controller; 36v 20a looks like being the sweet spot. Now I'm looking for a new hub motor: front (not to interfere with the gears on the new bike), light, free-running and utterly reliable at that power level, disc-compatible and preferably 32 hole so I can lace it into a quality rim.

Recommendations?