Struggling with BMSBATTERY motors

Hi, I'm new posting, but before posting I've already did a lot of research in this forum, thanks all.

After all the research I think I've founded the perfect kit for me, below you have all the components just in case someone want's to copy them.

But is not perfect and I'm a bit struggled with an ordered shipment to bmsbattery, so far the customer experience is more or less ok, but now after choosing everything, they tell me that is not possible to have a 328rpm motor for a 26" wheel so I'm trying to find the best alternative.

Purpose of the e-mtb:
Go quickly to work with not so many hills with a max speed of 25mph (40km/h) and go to the country with some hills. In the country I won't go all the time with motor so I need something not very heavy and also the motor without resistence. I prioritice go working (every day) than going to the country (w-ends)

The options I've check are:
a) Changing to a direct drive motor (Pros: Quicker going to work, cons:Heavy and resistance if it's off)
b) Changing the order to a 36v 500W 201rpm (That means overvolt and not sure if this is quicker than 48v 500 201rpm, Bmsbattery told me that the speed is the same, wierd :? )
c) Stay with the 48V 500W 201rpm (Cons: Bmsbattery told me to have just 19mph or 30km/h)
d) Buying a 328rpm motor without wheel and order it in a local shop (maybe expensive, or motor uneficient)
e) Changing the whole order to another supplier (more expensive)

What would you guys recommend? and why?
My perfect world is around 25mph (40km/h) cheap geared motor I think, to much?
Here there is a interesting post talking about rpms

The components are:

• Bafang BPM 48V500W Rear Driving RPM : 328 *Not available for 26" wheels (And maybe unecificient)
• 48v 10ah hight C rate * I know pings batteries are the best, but ordering from 2 diferent places is expensive for me.
• S12S controller * It's some kind of simulator, will see.
• S-LCD1 display * Not 100% sure if this will give me the battery discharge status.
• Disk brake * I think is compatible with the motor and the shimano gears below.
• 14-28 Teeth Freewheel 7 speed
• Half Twist Throttle - With a Button * Thinking about conecting that button to turn on/off the electric bike (to avoid problems with cops in special situations)
• Brake Grip * Not sure if I'll need it, but is inexpensive.
• A Pair of EBike Torque Arm - Size : M12
• Eight poles PAS * Not sure if I'll need it, but is inexpensive.
  
  Total: 579 USD + 224 USD shippement = 803 USD

Any other advice regarding the components?

Update:
I missed the speed sensor in the front wheel, a magnetic reed to use my hydraulic disk brakes and finally I neither used the spare disk brake nor the levers.
I changed the BMP freewheel motor with a CST cassette one so I could have to gears and more traction/speed.
And the Half Twist Throttle - Without a Button
The fan charger is very noisy, I should have been bought a better one without fan at least.
After 1,200 km the gears from the motor broke, I should have been bought spare gears for 19$ the 3 of them.


Thanks in advance and hope this post is interesting for the community.

Why not go with another vendor for the geared hub motor like Em3ev? you can get a MAC 10t that will hit your desired speed or an 8t and hit 50km/h. The best part is you can custom order motor built into an Alex wheel of your choice. my preference for 26 is the 24mm wide rim. You can also get the phase wire upgrade and the heat sensor installed incase you ever get a cycle analyst in the future.
You can still get the battery and accessories like the torque arm at bmsB.

I've never done business with bms battery myself, but that solution does come to mind. The real issue here is that 328 is a fairly fast winding, and it is less than ideal for a 26" rim. But if you have no hills, and don't stop every block, it could be fine. You could get a bare motor and then buy spokes to lace it. Ughh.

And the 201 rpm really is a slow motor. Great for climbing steep hills, but maybe a tad slow for you on the open roads.

EM3ev's Mac motor comes in a 10t 255 rpm version. Ahh, just right for many. It may be worth the money to just get the motor kit there. Before you decide bms battery is cheaper, find out what shipping will cost you.

Lastly, freewheeling in the motor is overrated imo. Once you strap on a ten pound motor and a 15 pound battery, I find it implausible that you will ever pedal far with the motor off. Unless you are already a very very fit cyclist. You can still remove the drag with just a 50w nudge on the throttle, extending range very far if you are that strong on the pedals.

You might find a dd motor from EM3ev, or even ebay will serve you just as well.

Thanks both for your answers, you're right about the rpm, 10t or 8t are perfect fit, but after doing some calcs, Em3ev double the price of Bms, so probably is the best solution, but it doesn't fit my pocket

So, clearing options:
a) Not so good, the option here is a direct hub Q11 48V 1kW with 370rpm that I think is even worst than the 328rpm geared, I don't understand why they do direct drive 370rpm but not 328rpm
b) Not sure if it'll reach the 40kmh but I see in the post that the rpm will increase 33%

When you run a code 11 at 48v, you get 33% more RPM than the same motor at 36v

Click to expand...

c) I don't like this option, too slow
d) If I'm not wrong it should be 13G spokes 210mm x 36 7,2USD + 26rim 8.58USD = 15,78USD + local shop to build it (maybe 30 USD) = 45,78 USD if I can go uphills with that maybe is a solution.
e) Too expensive so far:

• Bmsbattery --> 134USD + 86 shipment (difference adding the motor or not) = 220USD
  Em3ev --> 330 + 73 shipment = 403USD

My experience with BMSbattery and a motored hub wheel purchase was the wheel was untrue on arrival. Even when taken to my LBS it still wasn't perfectly true. RIdeable, yes, but there was still a noticeable wheel wobble. I improved it further by getting wider tires.

My experience with EM3EV was a trued rim on arrival. I think it was worth the extra $$ put into the purchase for the effort and quality you get in the end.

Getting the motor without rim & spokes gives you the option of choosing any rim your heart desires. If you don't know how to lace a wheel, it may be a nice opportunity to learn.

you have to account for the shipping charges when comparing prices when shopping from BMS battery. i think paul tells you up front what shipping will cost.

The 48v 201 rpm BPM that they ship is very slow, so avoid it. They normally ship the code 10 as the 328 rpm, which is actually about 315 rpm, which puts it right in the speed range that you want. I'm not sure that BMSB actually understand about motor speeds. You should ask them to check that it has 26(10) written on it. Somebody recently got a code 14 when he ordered a 328 rpm one, although it's possible that he forgot to click the box to select it. They normally ship code 13 for the 36v 201 rpm BPM, and code 14 for the 48v one, so the 36v one is quicker. Code 13 is 239 rpm and code 14 is 222 rpm. You have to run the 36v one at 48v to get a 33% increase in speed, not the 48v one.

You'll be pulling around 20 amps a lot of the time. Are you sure that a 10aH battery is enough. I use the 20aH shrink-tube li-ion batteries that are very light for their size and relatively cheap.

The free-wheel you've chosen will be too slow for 25mph. Depending what bike you've got (gears and brakes, I normally recommend the 500w Bafang CST motor because you can then use normal cassette gears with 11T top gear for more comfortable pedalling. It's a 36v 270 rpm motor, so does about 22 mph on the road.

Add a pair of the hidden wire brake sensors to your order if you want to keep your existing brake levers.

The disk brake that you've ordered needs to be the 180mm one. Then you'll need a 180mm caliper adapter.

There's often not enough room to get the half-throttle with button inside your gear-changers. You should get an additional one without the button because with that one, the wire exit can be in any position to clear the changer. You'll see what I mean when you try and fit it.

At the time of shipping,they'll probably ask for an additional $60 shipping because they need a more expensive courtier now, which their shipping calculator doesn't take into consideration. Best to sort that out with them now. It's not their fault: It's becoming very hard to ship batteries now.

Re reading and re thinking, 328 rpm is not so fast it will suck in 26" wheel. I think bms battery just doesn't get it that 20 mph isn't such a fast speed for mericans. Definitely, the 201 rpm is slow, unless you have need for slow.

Thanks master d8veh!!

Nothing best than good advice on time. I will add one half-throttle without button. Then the hidden wire brake sensors are not compatible with hidraulic brakes (I think are the ones I have) I hope I don't need 4 brake levers. :|

Then, sorry I didn't understand well why I need the 180mm disk brake and the caliper, as I already have 160mm disk and ad-hoc caliper.. is because of the motor? BMP and CST both need that?

And now another good question, BPM 125$ or CST 249$ 270 rpm, I've read more about this in another post of yours, basically CST is better because has cassette and the possibility of more gears (good point) but it worth the 124$ difference? It seems to be a similar motor maybe the CST has a bit more quality, both geared without resistance.

About the amps, I don't want to go max speed all the time, in the LCD panel I'll reduce the speed level, but if I'm in a hurry I'll want to have the possibility to go full. The problem is the battery, I went for that because is in a rack, so I can leave it from time to time in the street and is more difficult to steal it than the rest, if not I'd have been for pings.

So now I've reduced the options and added a new one:
b) Overvolt the 36v 500W motor 201rpm with builded wheel (code 13 239rpm x 33% = 279 rpm? correct me if I'm wrong)
d) A BPM 26(10) motor 328 rpm (if they have)
f) 500w Bafang CST 270 rpm

For options d and f I'd need to build the wheel, and I think the configuration is 13G spokes 210mm x 36 + 26rim

I'm starting to see the light 8)

The 500w CST motor comes ready-built into a wheel, but they have a nasty habit of centralising the wheel to the motor flanges rather than the axle, so you normally have to dish the wheel to get the rim central to the frame, but it depends how much off-set there is in your frame on the cassette side. So you might as well add one of their $1 spoke keys, which you'll need anyway to tighten the spokes. It'll stop you from wasting a lot of time to find one that fits. I forgot about that.
http://www.bmsbattery.com/ebike-kits/589-q11-48v1kw-front-driving-hub-motor-e-bike-conversion-kit.html

There isn't enough room between the disk rotor and the motor to fit the caliper. You need a 180mm rotor to get to the point where the motor tapers in It's the same on most motors unless you have a very thin caliper.

The 500w CST and BPMs have very similar power and torque. The Code 11 BPM is the same speed as well. Whether the CST is worth the extra money is debatable. You'll see what I mean about the gearing if you get the BPM. If you have a nice bike with nice cassette gears and changers, it is worth paying extra to keep them, but if you have cheap free-wheel gears, maybe not. I've not heard of a single CST failure yet, and BPM failures are rare now. The CST is better protected against water ingress.

The S12S controller has advanced settings, where you can switch to current control rather than speed control. It's what they call "torque simulation". The lower PAS levels on the LCD will then reduce your current more, which you might find useful.

You won't be able to use any of the standard brake sensors with your hydraulic brakes. The easiest solution is to fit a cable disk brake on the rear. Then you can use one of those hidden wire sensors, otherwise you have to make something out of a magnet and hall sensor or reed switch. It's not a good idea to use PAS without at least a rear brake sensor because of the slight run-on, an in case your throttle breaks, which is quite easy to do.

Welcome to ES****Do this before your first post or now (it's retroactive)*****
Please go to the User Control Panel, select Profile, and then enter your city, state/province, and country into the Location field (country minimum) and save it. This will help people help you. Example: Wylie, TX, USA. or just USA, but country as a minimum, and country is the most important. There are many cities with the same name all over the world. Without knowing what country you are in it's hard to make any recommendations. Thank you.

Want good advice?
Your weight?
Length of commute?
Commute speed?
Max speed?
Terrain?
Budget?
Bike size?

Saddly they don't have 26(10), I copy one of their emails to confirm that they don't know the relation from codes and rpm, this is crazy.

Sorry,we have no code (10) now,if you need,we can ask the engineer built for you Bafang BPM 48V500W Rear Driving E-Bike Motor Wheel - RPM : 328 Wheel(rim) size: wheel: 26
But the code is not (11) ,it is code (18)
These are the ones we have:
1) BPM 36V 350W 26(11)
2) BPM 48V 350W 26(18)
3) BPM 36V 500W 26(12)
4) BPM 48V 500W 26(18)
Looking forward to your early reply
Regards,
Rita

Click to expand...

So now I have one option less:
b) Overvolt the BPM 36V 500W 26(12)
d) has vanished, althought I asked when they will receive it, I don't think will be soon.
f) 500w Bafang CST 270 rpm

I'll bike 2 disks 160mm and 180mm just in case.

d8veh, from your point of view I understand you are clear about the 500W CST motor. My bike is a Trek 8900 and was 900$ when I bought it, so maybe it worth it, but, it's getting pricely for me, could option b work? I not going to change the changers, trying to use the most as possible form the original bike. So I understand that it could be BPM 36V 500W 26(12) 250rpm x 33% = 332 rpm
So following your other post equation:

No load speed = Motor rpm/201 x ave batt voltage/nominal motor voltage x wheel size/26 x15

Click to expand...

So for a 250 rpm 36v motor with a 48v battery in a 26" wheel, you get:
No-load speed = 250/201 x 53/36 x 26/26 x 15 = 27mph - 10% (on road) = 24,3mph (39km/h)
Not sure about the amps for that speed, because my limit is 20a

And what happen BPM with gearing, is bad quality?

The lower the code number, the higher the speed, so the 36v code 11 would be the one you want. It's exactly the same speed and power as the 36v 500w 270 rpm CST. I've done side-by-side tests, so I know that to be true. As it happens I still have one, and I went out on it yesterday because I broke a spoke in my other bike. On the flat without pedalling hard, it runs at 20 to 22 mph. The 350w one should be OK if you're only going up to 20 amps.Your calculation looks correct, so over-volting the code 12 is also an option. You can see why I said avoid the 48v 201 rpm one. They send a code 18, which is out 160 rpm.

There's one more thing that you can do to get more speed. If you buy the complete BPM kit, they supply the KU93 controller in the 350w kit and the KU123 in the 500w one. Both have the three-speed switch connector, which, in the high position, gives about 10% more speed by changing the timing somehow.

If you only want 20 amps, you need to think about the controller. Ku93 is 22 amps, KU123 is 30 amps, S12S is 23 amps and S12P is 29 amps.Why do you want to limit to 20 amps?

Assuming you get a BPM, you need to sort out the gearing. You need something like 11T/48T to cruise at 22 mph. If you stick with the basic 14T rear set, then you need a chain-wheel of 52T or 53T, which you can find for road bikes. Something like a double 52T/39T one. This means that you have to move your front derailleur up and reset everything. You might need a chain-wheel spacer to move it outwards to clear the chain-stay because of the larger diameter. The other option is to get a DNP free-wheel with 11T top gear. Ideally, you want a seven-speed, but they're hard to find. 8-speed are more common, but they're a tight squeeze in the frame. Whatever free-wheel you get, you''ll need spacers on the axle - normally two washers 12mm inside dia and 20mm outside dia to go inside the end of the free-wheel to space it from the drop-out.

Hmmm it's getting more difficult.

I want the easiest and cheapest solution, I don't like changing the chain-wheel or moving derailleur as I'd like to conserve my old wheel just in case I want to go to some bike competition, so better if it's compatible.

You said that 36v 350W is ok in 26(11) but I better prefer to go 500w and 26(12), I'm already overvolting the 36v to 48v so I don't like to overwatt as well, just in case.

New options:

b1) Overvolt the BPM 36V 500W 26(12) + DNP free-wheel with 11T top gear
b2) Overvolt the BPM 36V 500W 26(12) + substitute the 14T from bmsbattery gears with a 11Ttop gear.
f) 500w Bafang CST 270 rpm + buy the same gears I have now

Are b1 and b2 factible? I mean, just buying a 11T gear or the whole gears without changing the rest?
I understand f) is the easiest as I can use an identical gears, but it's also the most expensive.

I don't want to go more than 20amp to save the battery life, there's no other reason, I like the S12S + LCD because as you said I can limit the current instead of the speed (I couldn't find it in the LCD instructions tough, are you sure? can I limit also the voltage?)

I think in the perfect world I would like to limit the current (to save battery life) and also the voltage with a 36v motor, so if I want to go quick I would increase the volts to 48v but if I want to go to the country I would be able to reduce to 36v and go happily uphill being more efficient.

You are helping me a lot, thanks again for that, sure more people follow this post to buy it's e-bike.

B2 is not an option. The only options are a standard free-wheel and pedal like a kid on a BMX bike, or the DNP free-wheel.

The S12S advanced settings allow you to change between current control and speed control for the 5 levels. Personally, I prefer speed control, which gives a better and more logical power algorithm. You can download the advanced settings instruction from the "download" tab at the bottom of the page when viewing the S12S controller.

If you going with BMSbattery make sure you are willing to get used to the art of bicycle wheel truing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcZ1jjB_AdQ
D8veh, dunno why your so eager to help this guy he wont even say what country hes in.

Sorry, TheBeastie, I didn't know it was so important to know where I live, I thought was not relevant, but if you are curious I live in the UK. Thanks for the wheel truining video tough. Also d8veh is not only helping me but probably a lot of people with the same questions.

d8veh Now they do have 48v 26(10), because I insisted them but now I think I like better the CST, I've read several problems with the BPM with the free-wheel etc.. so I'll go for a more consistent CST. So I'm almost done, any suggestions to order the CST, are they going to make me crazy as with the BPM codes?
Also, is not too inneficient the 36v 500W 270rpm for a 48v battery? It would be 359rpm for 48v and maybe drains the battery too fast.
No load speed = Motor 359/201 x 53/36 x 26/26 x15 = 39mph?? (60kmh)

I'm going to see if I can find a voltage regulator, so if I go in the city I run 48v and in the country side 36v, I think it's a good idea right?

Thanks again

Your calculation isn't correct. Speed is 270/201 x 53/36 x 15 = 29 mph. You'll use a lot more battery at that speed because efficiency will be low below 15 mph at full throttle.It would be better at 36v. Nothing is easy, is it? There's only one speed version of the 500w CST, so nothing to make you crazy, although the 350w one is slower and a lot less powerful, so make sure that you order the right one. The 48v code 10 BPM gives you exactly the speed you want.

I learned a lot from this thread. Very informative.
I was initially going to go this route, but decided instead to go the D.D. route. Hills, Heavier body weight = 3 Bills.

So a little tangent.......

You wrote.......
•Half Twist Throttle - With a Button * Thinking about conecting that button to turn on/off the electric bike (to avoid problems with cops in special situations)

Honestly, if you are not goofing around, acting a fool, "speeding" I doubt any cop will even bother, now you install a gas powered bicycle engine thats loud then theres a slight possibility the copper will flag you down when "acting normal", here where I am at, we got a substantial river with bike paths all along it on both sides, that I ride, we have a "State Park" = Provincial Park within the city (pop. = 1.1M) with tons more single track, paved paths that I ride. This is the primary reason I am going electric. Silent, hidden and quiet, stealth as they say. But for the kill switch, might be wise to have, in case the cop does flag you down - on a donut sugar high power trip and write you up a ticket....you can say to the authorities prove it was engaged.

I know a little off topic, but hey it got me thinking.

Thanks calab for your advise, but you never know and better be ready for the unexpected.

The kit just arrived correctly, BMS service although the communications was a bit weird (either I couldn't explain myself correctly or they don't understand very well), after several emails, everything was understood. Of course I had to wait for the package to arrive, TNT is 5 days and Bmsbattery 30 days (forget about availability in the website, that is not always true)

I charged the battery, tested and everything it's ok so far, today I'll do more wiring and test the whole kit.

1) I've found that the wiring is very bad, I'm thinking about changing everything, a bike is not something that it's going to be free vibrations and I'm afraid some wire will unplug unexpectedly. Any suggestions about it?

2) Also the brakes I bought are not the ones with the magnetic stuff, so not sure how I'll do this to use the original hydraulic brakes, I'll probably try doing a research in ebay, any other cheap website?

3) The controller s12s comes with 2 more wires that are not in the bmsbattery diagram, both are plugged to their selves, not sure how to say it, probably if I disconnect them the controller will turn off, or the speed will be cut, not sure.

The controller is out of the battery package, I'll buy a water proof small bag also to put all the wires.

I still have to check about the disk brake.

]

tronne said:

1) I've found that the wiring is very bad, I'm thinking about changing everything, a bike is not something that it's going to be free vibrations and I'm afraid some wire will unplug unexpectedly. Any suggestions about it?

Click to expand...

I think I am just using all the supplied plugs for the 12S controller + CST Bafang motor etc and nothing has ever fallen out of its plugs. I have done about 500km worth of traveling now on my setup.

I am a fan of easy cheap solutions so what I did to hide excessive wiring was to wrap it around my seatpost and then cover it with this Velcro waist belt I got from ebay for $6.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Universal-Waist-Belt-Neoprene-Support-Protection-Wide-Band-Velcro-Exercise-Sport-/330880668568?pt=AU_Boxing_Sporting_Equipment&hash=item4d0a065398&_uhb=1
View attachment 1

tronne said:

3) The controller s12s comes with 2 more wires that are not in the bmsbattery diagram, both are plugged to their selves, not sure how to say it, probably if I disconnect them the controller will turn off, or the speed will be cut, not sure.

Click to expand...

Is it the blue/black wire? I asked BMSbattery what the blue/black wire they have jumpered out of the controller does and they said cruise control. This seems true, if you just hold throttle at a certain speed for a period of time the controller just sticks at that speed, pretty sure that is how it works.

There is a fair amount discussed about the S12/S6 controller on this thread, I kind of made a mess of it because it was my first time hooking it up and got snagged on a simple brake sensor I installed wrong.
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=46608&start=75

FWIW, you really need 3 bikes.

One is your pedaler, and likely is your best bike.

The second one is your commuter. Depending on your choices, it might do the rides in the country. Nearly any hubmotor can get up 10% grades.

The third one is a dedicated trail bike, if riding steep trails is what you had in mind. Fortunately, multiple e bikes can run on one battery, one at a time.

Right now, my stable has 5 pedal bikes, and 5 running ebikes. It's your future too.

After some work, truining, painting, wiring.. here is the first version of the bike. I know the wires are messy, I'm waiting for a spiral to put them all togheter, I also have to protect the conectors from the dust/rain.


And here the detail where I put the controller:


To use the hydraulic brakes I bought 2 reed swith or proximity swich in ebay for 2usd, like the ones you can use for the door sensors for the house alarm.

The last thing, not that good, is that for some reason the highest speed is 20km/h, (with 500W CST motor and s12s 20amp controller) I read the instructions and set up the limit to 75km/h but still 20km/h, not sure if I'm missing something, the battery is 48v and the tester indicates 52v so I'd expect more that double speed. Here the LCS panel

I might have to configure something in advance settings? But I think better not to touch if I don't completely understand it, and I couldn't find info about these settings.

These are the settings I have:

• Max speed 72 km/h
• 26inch

• P1 214 (No idea)
• P2 1 (I don't understand, wheel rotating?? when? for what?)
• P3 1 (I don't understand)
• P4 0 (THis is OK, without PAS)
• P5 12 (I think it should be around 17)

I hope I won't have to go 20km/h for ever

tronne said:

These are the settings I have:

• Max speed 72 km/h
• 26inch

• P1 214 (No idea)
• P2 1 (I don't understand, wheel rotating?? when? for what?)
• P3 1 (I don't understand)
• P4 0 (THis is OK, without PAS)
• P5 12 (I think it should be around 17)

I hope I won't have to go 20km/h for ever

Click to expand...

Yeah you got the exact same kit I got, I got mine installed on a 700c wheeled bike though.
for P1 setting the number is 140, or so I am told. Its based on the pole count of the motor. I had it wrong for a fair while and doesn't seem to effect speed noticeably but I think it does effect battery efficiency/range.
P1 = 5 x 28 = 140
P5 should = "2" which is the setting to tell the controller you have a v48 battery, you can go "0" which is some kind of automagic/whatever setting but you can't count of any kind of controller based LVC to kick in, but your battery will do that anyway.
The other P settings I just have on "1", dont seem to do much from memory.

Weird you can't go past 20km/h. Have you got your speed sensor installed on your front wheel to the controller? Try riding with your brake sensor wires unplugged. Have you got thumb or twist throttle? Try installing your PAS and seeing if it is just some kind of problem with your throttle. If you haven't got a PAS yet I recommend 8 pole PAS or higher.

I use my S12S with a BPM at 36v. I didn't have to change anything. I just connected it up, and it worked. I have the PAS and the wheel-speed sensor connected. Could you post some pictures of the connectors on your S12S because I've heard of some differences, or can you confirm that yours is exactly like this: