WOW! Brain overload.

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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ronnbot   10 mW

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Re: WOW! Brain overload.

Post by ronnbot » Feb 05 2014 12:45pm

wesnewell wrote:Simple way for 12s2p.
12s2p.jpeg
Indeed very simple, and can be accomplished by using 1 series adapter + 2 parallel adapter.

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Re: WOW! Brain overload.

Post by wesnewell » Feb 05 2014 1:04pm

You don't need series adapters at all. Just plug the positive red from one pack into the negative black from the second. The pack connectors split in half. Only other thing you need is a Y cable for the positive and a Y cable for the negative. I would recommend a couple of 2x 6s parallel balance cables to parallel the cell though. About $2 each from HK.
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Mongoose 26" Ledge 2.1 mtb bike $99, yescomusa.com 48V 1000W rear hub kit $200, Hua Tong 72V 40A controller $35, 10ah 24s lipo $217=~43mph, range=45 miles @ 20mph. 25K miles and still going strong.
Huffy Fortress 3.0 with MXUS 3000 4T motor, 24s lipo, 96V 60A controller. Total cost with extras <$700. Top speed ~50mph
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dogman dan   100 GW

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Re: WOW! Brain overload.

Post by dogman dan » Feb 05 2014 1:43pm

You will need one + and one - parallel Y cable for that method.

Wes shows the other way to get to the same place, his method has the virtue of taking less connectors. Parallel first is the way to go if you must split the pack to 6s to charge. Wes has a 12s charger, so he doesn't need to do that and can use a bit simpler way to connect them.

To each his own, the only wrong way is to parallel the balance leads while they are connected in series. You melt copper onto your hands when you do that.

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Re: WOW! Brain overload.

Post by ronnbot » Feb 06 2014 2:13am

wesnewell wrote:You don't need series adapters at all. Just plug the positive red from one pack into the negative black from the second. The pack connectors split in half. Only other thing you need is a Y cable for the positive and a Y cable for the negative. I would recommend a couple of 2x 6s parallel balance cables to parallel the cell though. About $2 each from HK.
No you don't need adapter at all, but you can buy them to make the harness. Here's what I mean (using Deans):
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P2052189.JPG
P2052189.JPG (113.05 KiB) Viewed 1162 times
Anyway, that's just another option to wire the packs.

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Re: WOW! Brain overload.

Post by worldpax » Feb 09 2014 1:03pm

Wow! Now I have too much time on my hands. Am I going to be satisfied with 12s? Now I'm thinking I might want to bump up to 15s. What does everyone think, worth it, not worth it, if my goals haven't changed?

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12 or 15s?

Post by worldpax » Feb 14 2014 10:36pm

Search doesn't work on 3 letter terms.

Yescomusa 48V/1000W kit. Plan is for 12s, but of course I'm wondering if I'm going to regret that I didn't go with 15s.

My goal is a commuter operating in the 20-30mph range and I'm not looking for an all out speed demon, but...

If the motor and controller can take it, is there any downside to going with a bit more powaaaaah!?

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Re: 12 or 15s?

Post by Drunkskunk » Feb 15 2014 12:14am

15s is fun. It depends on the controller, though. 15s is 63V peak, and most 48 volt controllers use 63v capacitors, so you'll be pushing the controller to the bleeding edge every charge. I do it on several bikes and have never had a failure.

If you can live with the risk, go for it.
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Re: 12 or 15s?

Post by heavymetalthunder » Feb 15 2014 1:19am

I use a 1000w 48v unit in my bike and I run on 12s batteries and except for climbing steep hills my speed range is 25 to 30 mph. With over 3000 miles I have not had any problems. I went for reliability over speed. I would hesitate riding an ebike much over 30 mph.

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Re: 12 or 15s?

Post by wesnewell » Feb 15 2014 1:57am

Going from 12s to 15s will be about 5 mph faster in speed. Only you can decide if that's what you want. Looking at 28mph to 33mph. Charging may be an issue. There's are no 15s chargers that I'm aware of, so you'd have to parallel charge the 5s packs assuming you went with 3 5s packs in series. And then you could get a 15s bms. 12s is simple. The controller LVC is perfect for 12s. Not high enough for 15s, so you'd need to monitor voltage closely as to not over discharge the pack. Just lots of options. 12s is the safest route imo. With it you'll never over discharge your lipo pack and you'll never over heat the motor. You can run it wot all day long, or until you run out of juice.
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Mongoose 26" Ledge 2.1 mtb bike $99, yescomusa.com 48V 1000W rear hub kit $200, Hua Tong 72V 40A controller $35, 10ah 24s lipo $217=~43mph, range=45 miles @ 20mph. 25K miles and still going strong.
Huffy Fortress 3.0 with MXUS 3000 4T motor, 24s lipo, 96V 60A controller. Total cost with extras <$700. Top speed ~50mph
My videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0KW4U ... _G2wQhptMg

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Re: 12 or 15s?

Post by friendly1uk » Feb 15 2014 2:58am

Are you using lipo? If so, that is a 13s kit. If you don't use 13s the battery meter won't work. That's one ugly device to be taking up handlebar real-estate. If it didn't even work I would not be happy.

The number of cells in series presents no charging issue for you unless your trying to use radio control stuff. In which case I can only advise you to look at any of the fire threads to see why that is a bad idea.
bmsbattery sent me broken and incorrect stuff, and won't even talk to me about it.

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Re: 12 or 15s?

Post by TMaster » Feb 15 2014 3:53am

I started out with this kit. I ran 18S (59.4V nominal) A123's to start out. I'm not sure if I replaced the capacitors for 18S or not, but I'm sure I did when I went to 20S to 75V cap's. I had to lay the caps on their sides for them to fit. I also changed the power resistor inside to handle the more voltage step down. Normally the controller peaks around 25A to 35A. I can't remember exactly. I covered half of the shunts inside with solder to boost the peak amps to 60A. On the 60V I was able to go 35mph topped out on the flat. The mosfets inside were rated at 75V max, so when I went to 21+ A123's I bought a new controller. It wasn't worth upgrading everything inside, compared to buying a new Infineon. The Infineon controller runs the motor smoother and quieter. It's a much better controller with software programming capability. Had to swap 2 of the Halls to a different combination make the motor run correctly.

I would go at least 15S or 16S lithium. The motor can handle a lot of volts with no problem at all. Just keep the amps under 75 with the stock phase wires ;) I am still running 110A peak with 23S, 76V though the original motor (But upgraded phase wires to 12AWG). In fact the motor and the throttle are the only thing I have left that I am using from the yescomusa kit :D I just disabled the LED voltage meter inside the throttle. Same motor internally as the 9C and golden motor.

I still have the original controller, it has been sitting for a few years now. I need to do something with it!
Attachments
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Specialized HR - 75 lb's
A123 26650M1 23S4P(75.9V Nominal) 7500W Peak
Infineon Lyen 12 Fet/45amp controller heavily modded pushing 110 Amps peak
Yescom Motor with upgraged phase wires (Golden Motor/9C replica)

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wesnewell   100 GW

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Re: 12 or 15s?

Post by wesnewell » Feb 15 2014 4:13am

friendly1uk wrote:Are you using lipo? If so, that is a 13s kit. If you don't use 13s the battery meter won't work. That's one ugly device to be taking up handlebar real-estate. If it didn't even work I would not be happy.

The number of cells in series presents no charging issue for you unless your trying to use radio control stuff. In which case I can only advise you to look at any of the fire threads to see why that is a bad idea.
Don't listen to this crap. He has no idea wtf he's talking about. The LVC is perfect for 12s. At 13s it would let you over discharge the pack below 0% soc. And the idiot light led battery meter will still work, It's not very accurate in any case, As it's designed for SLA which has a much shorter voltage range. And it sure as hell won't be running 13s or higher. To keep better track of the voltage get one of these if you want to. Although with 12s, you'll never run your pack below 3% soc.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Waterproof-Digi ... 1078127200
Need Advice? https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=66302
Mongoose 26" Ledge 2.1 mtb bike $99, yescomusa.com 48V 1000W rear hub kit $200, Hua Tong 72V 40A controller $35, 10ah 24s lipo $217=~43mph, range=45 miles @ 20mph. 25K miles and still going strong.
Huffy Fortress 3.0 with MXUS 3000 4T motor, 24s lipo, 96V 60A controller. Total cost with extras <$700. Top speed ~50mph
My videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0KW4U ... _G2wQhptMg

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Re: 12 or 15s?

Post by friendly1uk » Feb 15 2014 5:09am

wesnewell wrote:
friendly1uk wrote:Are you using lipo? If so, that is a 13s kit. If you don't use 13s the battery meter won't work. That's one ugly device to be taking up handlebar real-estate. If it didn't even work I would not be happy.

The number of cells in series presents no charging issue for you unless your trying to use radio control stuff. In which case I can only advise you to look at any of the fire threads to see why that is a bad idea.
Don't listen to this crap. He has no idea wtf he's talking about. The LVC is perfect for 12s. At 13s it would let you over discharge the pack below 0% soc. And the idiot light led battery meter will still work, It's not very accurate in any case, As it's designed for SLA which has a much shorter voltage range. And it sure as hell won't be running 13s or higher. To keep better track of the voltage get one of these if you want to. Although with 12s, you'll never run your pack below 3% soc.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Waterproof-Digi ... 1078127200

Oh wow Wes, have you finally got one over on me? Your sure sticking the knife in lol
So what makes this 48v kit unsuitable for 48v, what is the lvc, I need to see the facts before I congratulate you
bmsbattery sent me broken and incorrect stuff, and won't even talk to me about it.

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Re: 12 or 15s?

Post by friendly1uk » Feb 15 2014 5:41am

I'm sorry, I'm just playing with you Wes. Your not right at all, the meter is centered on 48v and what has the lvc got to do with anything. I state quite clearly that I can only advise if he is not using RC stuff. I build ev packs as you well know, so they have there own lvc, the one in the controller is of no consequence.

You would send him off to build an RC pack for his EV, which would mean it matters to you. Me though, I build EV packs for my EV's. Something you know full well.

Again... My advice is not relevant if your not building an EV pack. I thought I had made that quite clear. So while you have to drop to 12s to make it work at the expense of top speed and battery meter, I keep the meter working and the top speed intact by doing it properly, which I understand is something you can't grasp.
bmsbattery sent me broken and incorrect stuff, and won't even talk to me about it.

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dogman dan   100 GW

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Re: 12 or 15s?

Post by dogman dan » Feb 15 2014 6:47am

Down boys. We got enough to do with the 2-300 spammers that hit the forum this week. Opinions on tech welcome, but keep the fight on tech issues.

12s is not 48v. I tend to call it 44v, 3.7v nominal voltage x 12. It charges to 50v.

48v charges to about 56-58v. If it's lifepo4, 58-60v. 14s RC lico charges to about 58v, if you charge it to 4.15v.

I say 15s works, but a bit tight on the max voltage for a controller built with 63v capacitors. 15s RC chargers don't exist, but 14s ones do.

If you don't like 12s, buy a couple inexpensive 2s packs and try 14. But if you really want a bump up in speed, then you do need to change controllers, and then a 72v controller will work good on 18s. If you had some 2s laying around, then there you are, at 20s. Perfect for that 72v controller. :mrgreen:

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Re: 12 or 15s?

Post by whereswally606 » Feb 15 2014 6:53am

Agree with dogman, running lico (lipo) you should monitor cell level else you cannot be sure you aren't over discharging a weak cell. If you are monitoring at cell level the lvc on the controller becomes a little irrelevant since you shouldn't be hitting it.
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dogman dan   100 GW

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Re: 12 or 15s?

Post by dogman dan » Feb 15 2014 7:20am

Right. But for many, 12s is a very convenient size. Works well if you have only a 6s charger for example.

So if you do prefer 12s, it will work fine with 48v controllers lvc. Many of us have 36v controllers we run on 48v, in that case, you have an lvc set around 30v.

I don't see lvc playing much of a role in the decision. Ask yourself what charger you will use, what speed you want, etc.

In my case, I run my bike a lot with a speed limiter engaged so I can be sure of getting extreme range. At 14s, this means much of the ride will be at 16 mph. With 12s, much of the ride was 14 mph. I chose 14s, so I could ride 16 mph even on the last miles of the pack.

And with 14s, I get 33 mph with the limiter unplugged, when the pack is really full at 58v. :mrgreen: I got about 30 mph on 12s.

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Re: 12 or 15s?

Post by Eskimo » Feb 15 2014 7:45am

With 200W and 400W RC-chargers it"s just so easy, you can have any cell number pack you want. Shure, a bit more plugging when charging but can"t keep the cake and eat it. For me my wattmeter is my LVC. How much it takes to gaze the numbers occasionally while you ride? Effortless. 12S is good, i am going for 13S this spring after i made shure that local shop has spare controllers in stock. (5+5+3). 13S is like fresh 12S when half-empty. Guys here order packs only from EU-warehouse anymore, new HK international mail deal is not working well for customers.
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Re: 12 or 15s?

Post by worldpax » Feb 15 2014 8:57am

friendly1uk wrote: You would send him off to build an RC pack for his EV, which would mean it matters to you. Me though, I build EV packs for my EV's. Something you know full well.

Again... My advice is not relevant if your not building an EV pack. I thought I had made that quite clear.
Sorry, I should have clarified that I was talking about RC Lipo. I appreciate your concerns and passion for what you do. I think it will be a great day when we reach that tipping point where EV's are popular enough that the market is flooded with inexpensive quality choices that meet the varying needs of many different customers. Until then, the attractiveness of arguably less ideal solutions will remain and we can only hope that those, like myself, who choose that route heed the "potential" dangers.

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Re: 12 or 15s?

Post by worldpax » Feb 15 2014 9:13am

wesnewell wrote:Going from 12s to 15s will be about 5 mph faster in speed. Only you can decide if that's what you want. Looking at 28mph to 33mph. Charging may be an issue. There's are no 15s chargers that I'm aware of, so you'd have to parallel charge the 5s packs assuming you went with 3 5s packs in series. And then you could get a 15s bms. 12s is simple. The controller LVC is perfect for 12s. Not high enough for 15s, so you'd need to monitor voltage closely as to not over discharge the pack. Just lots of options. 12s is the safest route imo. With it you'll never over discharge your lipo pack and you'll never over heat the motor. You can run it wot all day long, or until you run out of juice.
Thanks Wes, that's what I needed to hear. I'm building a commuter so I should consider reliability first. I hadn't thought of the LVC. I had thought of only charging to 4.1V to keep the total volts under the controller limit.

All evidence points to 12s being adequate for my needs, but where I got into trouble is that my other hobby is driving a 125cc shifter kart. The part of my brain that likes doing that was trying to steer me wrong. It's the old point of diminishing returns and 12s seems to currently be that point.

Someone had a good point though. The easy solution that makes all the parts of my brain happy is to just serial in an additional 2 or 3s pack when ever I want a bit more oomph.

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Re: 12 or 15s?

Post by Ykick » Feb 15 2014 9:17am

I went back and forth between 12S/15S RC Lipo over several years.

15S (62-63V) is the upper limit for stock 48V controller/motor. And a lot more work/trouble to care & feed. I tried many brick combos too - 3qty 5S, 2qty 6S+3S, 6S+5S+4S.

12S works almost perfectly with 48V gear and you may also get lucky with 48V SLA LVC setting. 2qty 6S bricks make for a simple series/parallel arrangement. Easy...

Over the years I've upgraded all my controllers and chargers to handle higher voltages so with the recent bargains for USA HK 4S 20C 5Ah hardcase bricks - I've bumped my preferred voltage up to 16S or 66.4V (4.15V/cell) hot off the charger.

Just be aware that once you climb above 60V with stock 48V motor/controller the associated power level(s) in hot weather and majority WOT riding may begin to soften insulation on motor phase wires.

Some sort of "limiting" in hot weather and/or long rides near max power levels should be considered.
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Re: 12 or 15s?

Post by wesnewell » Feb 15 2014 9:34am

friendly1uk wrote:Oh wow Wes, have you finally got one over on me? Your sure sticking the knife in lol
So what makes this 48v kit unsuitable for 48v, what is the lvc, I need to see the facts before I congratulate you
That's the problem you have. You don't know what you're talking about, and even after being told, you still don't know. Pretty much all generic controllers set the LVC the same at 10.5V per 12V sla battery. That's 42V for a 48V controller. Great for a 48V sla pack or 12s rc lipo. Terrible for 13S and above rc lipo since it will allow it to discharge below 0% soc.
Need Advice? https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=66302
Mongoose 26" Ledge 2.1 mtb bike $99, yescomusa.com 48V 1000W rear hub kit $200, Hua Tong 72V 40A controller $35, 10ah 24s lipo $217=~43mph, range=45 miles @ 20mph. 25K miles and still going strong.
Huffy Fortress 3.0 with MXUS 3000 4T motor, 24s lipo, 96V 60A controller. Total cost with extras <$700. Top speed ~50mph
My videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0KW4U ... _G2wQhptMg

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Re: 12 or 15s?

Post by Drunkskunk » Feb 15 2014 1:55pm

I should point out here that the LVC of 42 volts for a 48V controller would cut out at 2.8v per cell for a 15S pack, 3.0V for a 14s pack, 3.23v for a 13s pack, and 3.5v for a 12s pack. ALL of those voltages are above the 2.7 absolute minimum voltage for Lipo, so safe.

I should also point out that anyone relying only on LVC for safe guarding Lipo is operating in an unsafe manner and needs to up their insurance. At the very minimum, you need some device that gives you the pack's actual voltage while you're riding.
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Re: WOW! Brain overload.

Post by wesnewell » Feb 15 2014 7:37pm

While correct. Don't get the impression one should actually run rc lipo cells lower than 3.5V LVC. All you're doing is as the song says, killing them slowly. The best $4 investment you can make.
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Mongoose 26" Ledge 2.1 mtb bike $99, yescomusa.com 48V 1000W rear hub kit $200, Hua Tong 72V 40A controller $35, 10ah 24s lipo $217=~43mph, range=45 miles @ 20mph. 25K miles and still going strong.
Huffy Fortress 3.0 with MXUS 3000 4T motor, 24s lipo, 96V 60A controller. Total cost with extras <$700. Top speed ~50mph
My videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0KW4U ... _G2wQhptMg

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