E-Cumbent Vision R40: 80v*30a, Xlyt 404, 20", C7220PF

I'm hoping to prevent a melted motor or blown controller. Any tips or comments on the limits I can put on an XLyte 404 20" front wheel with a 24-72v, 20a, XLyte 4110 fet pedal first ctrlr ?

I'm planning to upgrade the controller perhaps to recent Infineon and this 20 amp unit may become a backup and/or modified for higher current. What are 4110s doing in a mere 20a controller ? I chose pedal first because that makes a good backup that works without hall sensors.

This is my first e-bike build. My motor and controller should be here this week and I've started work on the battery pack. I've got 6 batteries of 20v and 6ah. So total in theory is 720wh. They are LiMn "Yardworks" batteries which are good for 30a continuous and switch off at 31a, or under 15v. I might go 4s, or 3s2p or buy more and do 4s2p (80v*60a)or 3s3p (60v*90a) .

My bike is an ATP Vision R40 recumbent with under seat steering. Me + bike + e-equipment might be 185 + 32 + 43 = 260 pounds. I hope to occasionally pull a good 2 kid trailer that might add up to 90 pounds for a total of 350 pounds.

Hills are an issue. I pedalled 50 km Sunday in heat and humidity with all 300+ pounds of us and 2 hills required getting out and pushing. I also live next to Gatineau Hills and some are quite difficult for this middle aged, low exercise smoker...

By checking hundreds of ebikes simulator graphs I came to the conclusion the best (least cost for needs) approach for me was an XLyte 404-405 in my 20" front wheel, paired with high voltage first, and high current second. Yes, current is like torque, which I need, but voltage helps to push it...

My main concern is, will I smoke the motor ? I guess that's a function of the heat generated within, which is the wasted power. So I ran some numbers, based on simulator results and that well know website equating watts with speed and incline. I've assumed 25 milliohms per battery and 10 milliohms controller resistance.

36v, 20a controller shows waste heat of 720 watts at 0 MPH. Is that right ? Just V*A at 0 ? At 5 MPH, good for 10% incline at full throttle I see 430 watts wasted. Is this sustainable on a 404 without killing the motor ? 430 watts ? Or perhaps just OK for 5-10 minutes ?

I'd prefer 72v at least at 20a though. 933 watts of waste at 5 MPH, but thats good for 17% incline, for average bike and rider I guess. Perhaps with my trailer I'd do much less like 12% maximum.

72v, 30a looks even nicer but wastes 1508 watts at 5 MPH full throttle. Of course you'll probably be quickly looking at 25 MPH where waste is only 555 watts, so this is only a brief peak.

I believe my pedal first controller should help relieve issues with 0 MPH stall currents.

Thanks !...

I don't think any hubmotor will last long on a 17% grade... even 12% is what any rational cyclist would call a "killer hill".

I would re-think the strategy and consider a 1000W cyclone kit or similar. You could really benefit from a through-the-gears setup.

Some pics:

Nice bike.

If you're dead-set on a hubbie, a geared BMC/puma might survive... lotsa torque, reasonable speed.

mikereidis wrote:

I believe my pedal first controller should help relieve issues with 0 MPH stall currents.

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Hi again Mike. I have the same bike except set up as LWB, and expressed some thoughts to you on another thread somewhere. I would never consider a pedal first controller, since I use my motor for the purpose of take-offs and hill climbing. Without the motor, trying to get going accross a street with a slight incline would kill me (probably in more ways than one!). Of course, I am old (68), not real fit, and have had a recumbent for less than a year.

On motors, I have to climb a hill that exceeds 15% grade to get back to my house from the village. the hill is about 1/4 mile so the motor and controller don't have a chance to warm up too much, but with a BD36 in the front wheel and using a 48V 20AH LiFePO4 on the rack, I can maintain 10 to 12 MPH up the hill with moderate peddling effort. I weigh over 200 pounds, so the total weight is probably around 275 pounds. When I add the BOB trailer with its additional motor and battery, I can maintain over 15 MPH with minor effort on my part. (Edit: the controllers are 35 Amp and they pull about 31 amps going up the steepest part of the hill at full throttle.)

I agree with TD that a brushless geared hub motor with more torgue would help. If I ever wear out all my BD36's, thats what I think I would replace them with.

Good luck with your project. I am anxious to see how it works out.

mikereidis wrote:

72v, 30a looks even nicer

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The Bicycle Man wrote on his website:
http://www.bicycleman.com/recumbents/vision/vision.htm

Vision Recumbents is out of business. Their assets were sold piece-by-piece at auction in March of 2004. We still have seat covers and seat frames available for sale. Finding other replacement parts like USS handlebars and USS front forks is getting difficult

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IMO the front fork on this bike looks pretty delicate, and you might want to limit the amount of torque it has to take. I made my own torque arms, which I hope will help prevent any damage.

TylerDurden said:

I don't think any hubmotor will last long on a 17% grade... even 12% is what any rational cyclist would call a "killer hill".

I would re-think the strategy and consider a 1000W cyclone kit or similar. You could really benefit from a through-the-gears setup.

If you're dead-set on a hubbie, a geared BMC/puma might survive... lotsa torque, reasonable speed.

Click to expand...

Thanks Tyler. I will consider a beefier motor #2, if I'm unsatisfied with or blow up motor #1. I prefer to keep it working to put on my wife's bike at worst, if I get a bigger motor for my bike. Motor #1 is on it's way, so I'll be testing and thrashing it regardless.

I don't know exactly the hill inclines here. I will rig up some sort of inclonometer. 17% was just a calculated theoretical capability, and I hope I never see 17%, more like 10% max hopefully.

Also, I'm not averse to pedalling, pedals are all I have right now after all. I can help the motor with low geared torque through my legs for the worst hills. Heck, I need some exercise, so I'd be OK to pedal assist all hills. When I have trailer attached I can just avoid the worst areas.

On reason, besides cost, I'm avoiding gears is because they make more noise than hub and I enjoy rides as quiet as possible.

Hi again Rassy,

Yes, I bought this bike from the Bicycle Man back in 2001. Drove there from Ottawa, tested various bikes and paid I think $2000 Canadian for a $1500 US bike. Saw one used recently listed at $600 US though.

Yes, I've seen that page. Only recently realized ATP was out of business. I think they made quality bikes, perhaps one reason they didn't survive ? Specs say 4130 Chromoly for frame; no mention of front fork. Might it be same 4130 ?

Front dropouts look OK to me, but I'm a newbie to e-biking and never new much about bike construction. Would a close-up picture help in assessing it's strength ? I want e-braking/regen eventually so I'd like to have protection in both directions.

My plan is to somehow secure two 10 mm wrenches in there, and keep the volts to 36 and the throttle light until I complete some torque arms.

Rassy said:

mikereidis wrote:

72v, 30a looks even nicer

Click to expand...

The Bicycle Man wrote on his website:
http://www.bicycleman.com/recumbents/vision/vision.htm

Vision Recumbents is out of business. Their assets were sold piece-by-piece at auction in March of 2004. We still have seat covers and seat frames available for sale. Finding other replacement parts like USS handlebars and USS front forks is getting difficult

Click to expand...

IMO the front fork on this bike looks pretty delicate, and you might want to limit the amount of torque it has to take. I made my own torque arms, which I hope will help prevent any damage.

Click to expand...

Rassy said:

mikereidis wrote:

I would never consider a pedal first controller, since I use my motor for the purpose of take-offs and hill climbing. Without the motor, trying to get going accross a street with a slight incline would kill me (probably in more ways than one!). Of course, I am old (68), not real fit, and have had a recumbent for less than a year.

On motors, I have to climb a hill that exceeds 15% grade to get back to my house from the village. the hill is about 1/4 mile so the motor and controller don't have a chance to warm up too much, but with a BD36 in the front wheel and using a 48V 20AH LiFePO4 on the rack, I can maintain 10 to 12 MPH up the hill with moderate peddling effort. I weigh over 200 pounds, so the total weight is probably around 275 pounds. When I add the BOB trailer with its additional motor and battery, I can maintain over 15 MPH with minor effort on my part. (Edit: the controllers are 35 Amp and they pull about 31 amps going up the steepest part of the hill at full throttle.)

I agree with TD that a brushless geared hub motor with more torgue would help. If I ever wear out all my BD36's, thats what I think I would replace them with.

Good luck with your project. I am anxious to see how it works out.

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I had 2 plans: get a top of the line controller, or get a cheap controller to start with and later use as a backup or on wife's bike. EBikes was out of stock of the $285 controller, so I went the cheap controller route for now. But it wasn't the $95 cheapie, I decided to go for the $145, "24-72V 20A pedal first controller, IRFB4110 mosfets" one. I imagine I can up the current quite a bit with 4110 FETs.

I think pedal first is good for a backup controller because it will still work if hall sensors or wires are broken.

My strategy for starting up hills will be to start down the hill and turn. I've down that with foot power alone occasionally.
If I get the same performance as you do from your BD36, I'll be happy, for phase 1 at least.

I'm a believer in trying out a cheaper, simpler solution (DD hub motor & PF ctrlr) first, before considering more powerful, but more costly and complicated solutions. If I blow something up, lesson learned. If I'm unhappy with performance, I upgrade and resell the old parts, keep them for spares or swap to my wife's bike, after changing wheel rim.

See heat abused WE BD36 for what a hill can do to a hubmotor. Of course it was a 14.5 mile uphill run in 100f heat that did it, but the real hill on the route was, one mile of 10%. I put the bike on a bus to get up that hill now.

dogman said:

See heat abused WE BD36 for what a hill can do to a hubmotor. Of course it was a 14.5 mile uphill run in 100f heat that did it, but the real hill on the route was, one mile of 10%. I put the bike on a bus to get up that hill now.

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Hokay. I re-read the thread... Perhaps brushless XLyte and cooler Canadian temps might help me a bit. I was thinking of using a temp gage on the motor; infrared I guess.

Got my motor/wheel today, thanks to YPedal. Installing it now. There's a slight gap in each fork in that 10mm space for a torque arm. Hmm, should some shim be inserted if it can be with minimal force ?

That new BMC post is interesting. But even in canada, the point is, sustained hills are a problem. My windings are ok though, so maybe I just got a bad motor. What seems to be failing is the chrome coating on the magnets, when they pop, the chrome stays with the epoxy.

Newbie installs front hub motor.

Does it really matter if wire goes up or down ? Down prevents pinching and possible contact with hub.

Cheap 10mm torque arm component is of course not complete.
Torque arm on right ?

Motor feels resistant on bike but not on road.

My front V-Brake is going to need some mods.

Does it really matter if wire goes up or down ?

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Yeh. The wires have to go in the dropout slot. i.e. down.

You have the identical fork I have. Somewhere somebody on this forum used an open end wrench clamped onto the fork, and the wrench kept working up. The fork has two small tits at the bottom of the dropouts, to keep the original quick release spike from slipping down. To get a good flat surface to torque against, without altering the fork at all, I filed a couple of half moons on the edge of a washer so the washer would sit flat against the fork dropouts. If you decide to make your own torque arms, a piece of 2" by 3/16" steel about 6" long can be made to fit on both sides of the fork by cutting a large u shape out. I also put a small screw into each of the (fender) holes on the dropouts. They should work good for both power and plug braking.

Edit: I was going to reference a picture of the torque arm, but I guess I never posted one, so here is a picture:

Nice torque arms Rassy. You made those yourself ?

I have a somwhat "getto-ish" prototype of a torque arm made from two wrenches bolted together.

Think these might actually be useful, or can be made useful, or am I just fooling myself with this idea ?

The two wrenches and fork form a triangle, which I think should give some strength. The top wrench is restrained both clock-wise and counter. The two bolts and nuts I've used on top wrench would be replaced with something better.View attachment 2

Nice torque arms Rassy. You made those yourself ?

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Thanks, yes. It did take several hours, but I only have basic tools and I think anyone could do a similar set. Of course you could use a hard stainless steel or temper the final product for an even stronger arm. The little BD36 at 48V isn't real powerful, and I have made torque arms for several other applications out of 1/8" steel, so I figure the 3/16" should be 50% stronger. None of the others ever showed any problems when I've removed them.

If you do decide to make your own, just make a pattern from a piece of cardboard for the cutout that snugs around the fork. Once you are happy with the pattern, transfer it to a piece of steel, drill a hole at the end of the long U, other holes along the cut line to help as you use a hacksaw to cut it out, and make a close fit using a file. Then you just need to drill the attachment holes and the axle slot. I make the axle slots by first drilling a 3/8" hole where it needs to be, then I use a tapered 3/8 round file to make the hole (exactly?) fit the axle. Whatever you do, good luck with it.

As far as the wrenches, even though the triangles are good, I think there are too many potentially weak points, and of course, I wouldn't use the brake mounts to attach it.

Hey Mike !

I don't think you want to run 80v on a 404 !!!!! unloaded speed would be something close to the sound barrier..

These 4 series clyte motors can take 1000w fairly hapily, i'm pushing my 409 at 2000w right now and it's ok but i run a 409, so 30mph on the flats, 25 mph up hills ( nothing extreem in NB for hills, at least, nothing that will bog down my 409 at 72v )

The 10mm wrench, make sure the sufaces are flat and not tappered, i'd suggest bolting the axle nut direct to the dropout and placing the wrench between the 2 axle nuts.

The chrome finish of those wrenches prevent a good friction fit, smooth hard surfaces don't clamp very well and tend to vibrate loose.

I'll dit up a pic of a torque arm i made for a similar fork.. brb

Ypedal said:

Hey Mike !

I don't think you want to run 80v on a 404 !!!!! unloaded speed would be something close to the sound barrier..

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Hey...

Sure I do ! I just don't want to go full speed, and need to be lighter on the throttle on flats and downhill. Yeah, it's off the right of the ebikes simulator graph for my config, but I guess it's around 72 MPH. I think I will NEVER go faster than 40 MPH, and expect over 30 MPH will be quite rare. Legal limit of 20 MPH will be fine for most cruising and saving watt hours.

I'm bucking the traditional hill climbing wisdom(s) of either (1) using a geared motor, or (2) using a higher wound motor. When using the simulator, and considering the physics, I come to the conclusion that the 404's torque and horsepower curves are always the same or better that those for a 406 (for example) for a given battery pack and controller. Some people point out the efficiency curves are better with lower performance volts and amps, but I think most are just looking at the full throttle efficiency. I find that when adjusting the throttle percentage to get the same watts from a motor, the efficiency curve moves left and everythings back to almost the same. There is a slight efficiency advantage with lower power, but not much IMO.

Yes, some throttle discipline is necessary. I'm even wondering if a non-linear or current based throttle might work better at higher power levels.

Ypedal said:

These 4 series clyte motors can take 1000w fairly hapily, i'm pushing my 409 at 2000w right now and it's ok but i run a 409, so 30mph on the flats, 25 mph up hills ( nothing extreem in NB for hills, at least, nothing that will bog down my 409 at 72v )

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Cool. I don't even recall what the "official specs" are for these motors. 350w, 500w ? At 36 volts ?

From at least one thread here, I've come to the conclusion the most important parameter for over-powering these motors is waste heat generated in the motor. I figure 72v at 20a will waste 933 watts at 5 MPH at full throttle, falling to 282 watts at 30 MPH. Of course once the throttle is reduced, waste goes down. I have a feeling these motors can handle such a run, on flat ground at least. I think I've heard they can handle 500 watts continuous waste heat, perhaps better when it's cool or raining and with decent airflow. I suspect that full throttle up a hill will kill a motor in a short time at 80v.

At 36 volts, however, I'd bet you could do almost anything without killing the motor, as long as you're going over about 4 MPH where maximum waste heat is about 500 watts.

Ypedal said:

The 10mm wrench, make sure the sufaces are flat and not tappered, i'd suggest bolting the axle nut direct to the dropout and placing the wrench between the 2 axle nuts.

The chrome finish of those wrenches prevent a good friction fit, smooth hard surfaces don't clamp very well and tend to vibrate loose.

I'll dit up a pic of a torque arm i made for a similar fork.. brb

Click to expand...

Thanks for the tips. You say "bolting the axle nut direct to the dropout", but I presume you are presuming I also have the lock washer and regular washer in there too. So I presume it's:

From center hub motor to far right side of bike:

Motor, Dropout, Washer, Lock Washer, Axle Nut 1, 10mm Wrench, Axle Nut 2.

BTW, why do these axles stick out so far ? For wider places like rear wheel motors ? Does anyone get them cut off ?


Yes, I'm concerned that an amateur level torque arm, made with basic tools, won't help much. I might consider having someone build one or two for me. But it would be nice if I (and others) could build something that works, perhaps with average e-bike torque levels, with inexpensive, or at least easily available parts like wrenches, nuts and bolts from Home Depot etc.

Of course it would be real nice to have a mech engineer look at it and say "Yeah, it should work to X Newton.Metres".

I think I'll slap something on the left side too, perhaps some variant of the adjustable wrench (they're bigger) and clamp idea.

Would be REALLY nice to have a torque arm with a gauge on it. Electronic strain gauge or just a BIG spring and lever. I've heard of PlastiGauge used as a one time deformation method of determing bearing clearances in combustion engines. I wonder if something like that could be used to at least guess how much force has been applied.

Should go

-Motor - fork - flat washer - lock washer - Nut -lock washer - flat washer - 10mmwrench - Nut

And yes, the long axle can be cut with a sawz-all or a hack saw or a dremel and cutting disks, angle grinder ( careful with the angle grinder, alot of heat, so do it in intervals to let it cool down)

Made this one for a 700C wheel in the front forks of a hybrid bike.

And this is the other side !!! ( wanted to make sure that sucker would stay put !! )

Ypedal said:

Should go

-Motor - fork - flat washer - lock washer - Nut -lock washer - flat washer - 10mmwrench - Nut

And yes, the long axle can be cut with a sawz-all or a hack saw or a dremel and cutting disks, angle grinder ( careful with the angle grinder, alot of heat, so do it in intervals to let it cool down)

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I just remembered/noticed/realized that my fork has those tabs/tits at the bottom to help keep quick release wheels in.

Flat washers sit at an angle with those there; not good. Do I recall most people grind these off ? With 10 mm open end wrenches the tabs are OK it appears. Can I avoid grinding by having those there ? Would four 10mm wrenches, two on each side be too wonky ? I.E.:

-Motor
- fork
- 10mm wrench
- flat washer
- lock washer
- Nut
- lock washer
- flat washer
- 10mm wrench
- Nut

And duplicated on the other side ?

I'd also like to get a big wrench of some sort on the big nuts on each side, one side for accel, the other for braking/regen. I think the inside nut would be better for securing the wrench to the fork.

Does anyone use a torque wrench to install these nuts ? I have a decent 3/8" drive I think, $100 one but my sockets aren't deep enough without cutting axle.

I figure 70-80 foot pounds of torque is the absolute maximum I will ever get from this motor (80v, 60a!). So, can or should I torque these nuts to 80-100 foot pounds ?

Thanks!

Quest for EMF continues...

Tuesday I went to a local bike shop with my new wheel for a new tube and tire. Realized when I got the wheel that my old almost 1 inch wide original front tire (Primo Comet or Racer) wouldn't fit on the 1.5 or so inch wheel on the motor. So local bike shop sells me 20" Schwalbe Kojak and a Presta valve tube that appears as if it's too big. I didn't want the French valve. So I used my original tube and the Schwalbe. Seems to work, and AFAIK isn't pinched. Only 80 PSI so far; good for 95.

Bought $25 rear-view mirror clips on glasses. Too pricey but works well. Got $12 3 LED headlamp today and seems to work sell. I think this is fine for most of my night-time cruisin'. At local tool shop bought $12 shaded safety glasses that strap and almost seal and look cool.

With these 3 items I'm looking pretty Borg-ish;... Hmm, what sort of cool helmet paint scheme would complement that ?

Consumers Reports likes Bell helmets. Bell owns Giro, but CR doesn't like so much. Local bike shop has Giro, no Bell. Giro is 2nd to Bell ? Never used a helmet before.

Contractor tool shop had $30 combo pack (for builder, construction etc, type people) that had a "tote bag", knee pads and gloves. Tote bag is triangular and should hold at least 2 batteries (220 WH) and controller and can go behind my upright seat.

Tool shop had WONDERFUL selection of nuts, bolts, hard to finds, etc, etc. Got extra axle bolts M14x1.5 fine thread, washers, lock washers, and some other sizes.

Tool shop had $40 "magnetic digital saw bevel angle indicator" that seemed ideal for an inclinometer so I can see exactly how steep my hills are, and doubles as a nice level addition. I might have to re-orient sensor to see display head on though. It does FULL 360 degrees, to 0.1 degrees, so I can accurately measure all points of the loopety-loop. My only regret is that I'll eventually need one with a USB port to go with the GPS equipped tablet PC I'm typing this on right now...

Canadian Tire had half price to $50 on a remote temperature reader. I'm not sure how good it is, but it seems OK in my limited testing today. I will use this on the motor, batteries and controller, as well as anything else I can think of around the house.

10 gauge wire, shrink wrap, connectors I hope will fit the batts, 30a auto fuse in holder, 30a breaker, colorful 690 tie wraps, red electric tape to match bike, variety connector kit and strippers.

2 22mm wrenches, 2 types of 10 mm wrenches, 4 stainless clamps, 2 calling birds...

Ebikes is annoying me with their "We'll ship it when we get around to it policy". I ordered parts last Wed., 9 days ago, and partly because 1 item was not ready, and I wasn't told that until late Friday after placing order by phone on Thurs. So they "can't ship till Tues" and the package wasn't picked up till Wed after they placed the order late Tues. So even though it's "expedited", here I am on Friday and it ain't here yet. So I won't have it till Monday at EARLIEST. That's 12 days after Internet order and 11 days after Telephone follow-up.

I'm not going to use Ebikes anymore for parts I need soon (like within 7 days even), unless I can't find a faster vendor. End of mini-rant w/ no exclamation marks.

So I hope Canada post can come through Monday with my controller and throttles. I have the batts and motor but can't test the motor yet. Maybe that's a good thing though given that I already rode 2 KM at midnight with the motor on and the washers hung up on the "lawyer lips"...

Back to the garage to mull over electronics bag placement and conversion of wrenches and pipe clamps into faux torque arms. 10 mm fasteners are now the rule as I'll always have a wrench or two handy.

Can you hook a bike computer to hall sensors ?

LMAO... yeah.. you will fit right in to this group lol....

Ypedal said:

LMAO... yeah.. you will fit right in to this group lol....

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Bag fits all 6 batts. 60v at 60a = 3600 watts for 10 minutes at 600+ WH. Should be enough for at least one 0-50 MPH test. Will calculate.

Time to ride...

Wrenches for torque arms....I saw that done elsewhere a few days ago as well. Kind of a cool "Gearhead" look, IMHO.

As far as the motor wire ... "Does it make any difference if it goes up or down..." the proper way is for the wire to go down from the hub and then turn back up to its' destination. This is called a "drip loop" and it does just that. Water won't run up the wire and have any chance to enter the motor.

I will still have a hefty plug of RTV packed around the wire at the entry. But then, I wear a belt with my suspenders.

Just can't be too careful....

BC