What do I want, Stealth, HPC or something else?

Hej lads,

The reason I just became a member of this beutiful forum of yours is the very thread you're now reading, the reason for this thread is the fact that I'm a noob when it comes to E-bikes/E-anything.

I've known there is E-bikes for quiet some time but I've just passed it by as beeing a quiet dull experience. This was untill I accedently managed to surf my way straight into some clip of a Stealth bike, now, thats something far from dull.
So, what do you do when you just discover the earth isn't flat? You spend a metric shittonne of time googling the word "globe". So thats exactly what I did, I went on a quest for information about the more extreme levels of E-biking.

I pretty soon decided that I want one of these things, now, despite many hours spent investigating(mostly watching action clips and pretty pics) I am far from an expert when it comes to the more techy stuff of E-bikes. This is where you guys come in, I understand there is alot of knowledge/experience on these forums and I'd guess i get a better and less baised opinion if i ask you guys and not Stealth/HPC about what bike I want.

FOR LESS BACKSTORY, MORE QUESTION, START HERE.

So, I'm basically asking whats the best quality, most beastiest bike i could get.

To make the question abit easier to answer I'll tell you abit about what i want/dont want.

-I want a fully suspended, purpose-built-to-be-electric bike, this means no canvas/papier-mache battery compartments.
-I want it to ride just as well off-road as on-road.
-I dont want to build it myself, i lack the skill/knowledge and at the moment ive got my hands full with other half-way-done projects. This rules out anything along the lines of the Phasor bikes, unless 2nd hand.

My googling togther with the above list have left me wondering if I should just get one of the Stealth bikes(as powerful as possible of course so probably Bomber, wait some for the HPC Revolution(6kw) or wait even more for the Revolution with mid-drive(4kw).

Then again maybe I'm looking a things the wrong way, thats why i want to hear your thoughts/opinions/hints/tips/experience on the subject. Fire at will.


Thanks in advance for any help.

/Bejk

what about the greyp g 12 bike? 12kws sounds fun to me.
http://www.greyp-bikes.com/

What is your budget? Where are you in Americas, Europe Asia ? Different places different prices different solutions.

Welcome to ES****Do this before your first post or now (it's retroactive)*****
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Thanks for the answers so far lads!

@Falco
Thats new to me, I'll look into it for sure. Though at first glance, it looks slightly less rigid than the monocoque-framed bikes. Also, whats up with it topping out at 65km/h? does it use some super torquey motor/gearing?
EDIT: I just did some shallow reading about the Greyp and the number 12 in G-12 doesn't represent the power, which would explain the "low" top speed. The figure 12 is there because its the designers 12th E-bike(same guy that made the Greyborg bikes).

@Racer_X
My budget? Well, I could go pretty high if I think the bike is worth the money, still, I don't think i would buy an E-bike with a price-tag much higher than 10k euros. Of course, I wouldn't be sad if I didn't have to spend all that money. It's just that I rather pay a little more and get quality/fun that lasts compared to going cheapo and ending up wanting more right away.

@wesnewell
Thanks for the tip, I did state my country somewhere while signing up so I thought it already showed somewhere. It's fixxed now though.


/Bejk

Best thing is you let your other projects wait and take the time and build it self becouse if you buy a turnkey ready bike you will find in 90% no one who can repair or service it exept your self And if you want a powerfull ebike than the things geting broke are much higher and much frequently than in a low power pedalforced type ebike

zener said:

Best thing is you let your other projects wait and take the time and build it self becouse if you buy a turnkey ready bike you will find in 90% no one who can repair or service it exept your self And if you want a powerfull ebike than the things geting broke are much higher and much frequently than in a low power pedalforced type ebike

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I totally agree with zener. I really does help to build it yourself. Another good reason is that good luck trying to bring something like that into Sweden. If you get the parts and build it yourself you will have no problems with Swedish customs (Tullverket) 8).

Are you planing on riding it in the bicycle lane (cykelbana) If so I would consider as stealthy an ebike as possible. Mine slides right through all the cops in Stockholm no prob.

Racer_X said:

zener said:

Best thing is you let your other projects wait and take the time and build it self becouse if you buy a turnkey ready bike you will find in 90% no one who can repair or service it exept your self And if you want a powerfull ebike than the things geting broke are much higher and much frequently than in a low power pedalforced type ebike

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I totally agree with zener. I really does help to build it yourself. Another good reason is that good luck trying to bring something like that into Sweden. If you get the parts and build it yourself you will have no problems with Swedish customs (Tullverket) 8).

Are you planing on riding it in the bicycle lane (cykelbana) If so I would consider as stealthy an ebike as possible. Mine slides right through all the cops in Stockholm no prob.

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I won't build it myself, it will have to be a turn-key/plugNplay setup, I simply do not have the time. Now, repairs/service I'm sure I could figure out on my own with some help from google/ES.

And I want it powerful, the reason for me looking at E-bikes is not because im to lazy to pedal or thinks my otto-powered bikes are just too much. I simply find the idea of speed/power while almost no sound awsome. Besides, I've allways wanted to ride something that was in the middle of MC vs. pedal-powered-bike, which mean i dont want a Zero MX or anything like that, that would be to heavy and would just feel like a straight up otto-MX in the way it handles(they still seem awsome when doing what they were ment to). I can't really believe a Stealth(or the likes of) would break/need maintenance more often than what I ride now or have ridden in the past.

Now, about getting one here, I know it wouldn't be easy, but I could sure make a go for it, I know it's been done in the past.

I'm planning on riding it both in the cykelbana and on any good looking trails i come across. Would probably end up with more km on pavement tho, as im planning to do some commuting on it. I can totally see your point about the pros of having a more stealthy(not stealth) bike, but from my point of view and E-bike is stealthy. Besides, do you think cops would get mad and throw a bunch of fines at you if you just used ur head while riding this "green means of transportation" and put on a bit of a "dummy act" if ever pulled over?


/bejk

IMO, stealth bomber, and greyborg do cross the line towards motorcycle. Big power means a big heavy motor on the hub.

If you have good budget, and like a more bike like ride with lots of assist up hills, maybe you should look into bikes with a bottom bracket motor.

Not the add on stuff, but the motor actually part of the crank. Europe is where this design is being pushed forward, and you are there.

So far out of my price range I can't tell you any brands.

dogman said:

IMO, stealth bomber, and greyborg do cross the line towards motorcycle. Big power means a big heavy motor on the hub.

If you have good budget, and like a more bike like ride with lots of assist up hills, maybe you should look into bikes with a bottom bracket motor.

Not the add on stuff, but the motor actually part of the crank. Europe is where this design is being pushed forward, and you are there.

So far out of my price range I can't tell you any brands.

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sometimes dogmans comment make me want to puke :x

Fair enough. I just saw a bit of dual personality there in his wish list. He seems to want motorcycle performance, but not motorcycle weight.

He was not considering anything not hub, but wanted a powerful hub to be lighter than it is, or so it seems to me.

Maybe a Cromotor or Stealth Bomber type approach is just what he wants. I just think he doesn't know how it can be, to have a 25 pound rear motor. It never feels like a "bike" to me. 15 pound hubmotors suck bad enough on a serious single track trail. While a blast on streets or moderate dirt, I cannot buy into "Rides just as well dirt or street" with the larger hubmotors. I AM biased about this, there is virtually NO easy dirt in my area. It's all a bitch, even on trials motorcycles.

I just thought perhaps he should take a peek at motors that go through the chain, if that would be more like what he wants. With gear selection, you do get the best of both worlds.

The stealth and the greyp come with 250w legal modes. so you just flick the switch if you get pulled over. But most people never get pulled over.
65km/h is plenty fast enough for what these bikes are designed for. Being in europe i think the Greyp will be cheaper for you too get. The stealth will be more expensive as it has to travel the world to get there and the currency conversion dealers ect.

I'll try to clarify this a bit.

I'm not expecting supermoto power.
I'm not expecting BMX weight.

My experiance with motorcycles comes mainly from MX/sumo/enduro(with the exeption of some stunt rig). Now, thats usually a 35-70hp 90-140kg bike. What I'm asking about here is something completly diffrent. I know i cant get these kind of power/weight/range ratios with electrics and so i dont search for them.

What I want is something bike-like, which still got the power to get me my daily dose of adrenaline. Does it have to have 50 horse to do that, nope. So looking at the Stealth bikes i can admit that they are pulling towards beeing a motorcycle more than a bicycle, however that doesn't boughter me much, i want something where I assist the motor, not the other way around.

To your next point, the fat hub motors, now thats one of the reasons I started this thread, i need input from the vise guys. I mean thats an insane amount of unfeathered weight, how would it behave? I know you just stated that it ran like shit on your bitch(even on trials motorcycles) trails, but how does it go about in the less extreme?

I mean, one of these things(hardcore MTB ebikes) have no specific job to be great at, do they?

If i wanted to ride bitching hard jungle ditches, I'd hop onto an enduro bike.
If i wanted to tear the streets a new one, I'd go with the a sumo setup.
If i wanted to blast down some narrow and technical DH trails, I'd go with a DH bike.

What im looking for here is something which can do abit of each but do not come to close to any of the already existing task-specific bikes.

Besides I really want to try something electric, it seems really awsome.

Now, the bomber is on the edge of beeing to heavy when looking at it on paper. Its still about half the weight of what ive previously ridden when it comes to motorbikes, the question is, is that light enough to make it feel bicycle-like, even if its like riding the hulk of bicycles?

The HPC Revolution on the other hand is stated to be much lighter on release, then again, that weight on the bomber isn't there just because it's fun, but maybe the Revolution would lean more towards bicycles feeling-wise, though it still has a huge hub motor.

And speaking of not wanting to have that unfeathered weight, I'm pretty sure I mentioned the Revolution with HPC's not yet released mid-drive as one of my options.

New question: motor/power, what do i aim for in general and in specific?
Do i want as much power as possible out of these big hub motors (Bomber 4.5kw vs. revolution 6kw) or is there some sweetspot, I guess there must be othetwise Stealth would probably have cooked up something even more beast by now since hot-rodders do it all the time. Also, would the previously mentioned mid-drive at 4kw beat a hub motor at 6kw in every category? Ride wise that is, i understand there is more service and such with a mid-drive.


/Bejk

Have you read the stealth owners thread? all the opinions you want are already there. This is the largest thread on this forum i believe.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=23996
The stealth bomber has a big motor compared to HPC.
The Greyp g12 has a custom made motor and the full specs aren't out yet.

Bejkon said:

New question: motor/power, what do i aim for in general and in specific?
Do i want as much power as possible out of these big hub motors (Bomber 4.5kw vs. revolution 6kw) or is there some sweetspot, I guess there must be othetwise Stealth would probably have cooked up something even more beast by now since hot-rodders do it all the time. Also, would the previously mentioned mid-drive at 4kw beat a hub motor at 6kw in every category? Ride wise that is, i understand there is more service and such with a mid-drive.
/Bejk

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Get the revolution 6kw and you can give us your opinion on how it turns out for you. Since no one here has experience with that ebike.

I think a new Stealth Fighter might be a very good choice. Around 34 kg & 3 kW, more agile & extremely capable on any surface. You have the choice of 2 gear Schlumpf simplicity or multiple gear derailleur. Priced considerably less than the Bomber with dealers in Europe, Stealth Germany might be the closest.

Bejkon wants the Stealth Bomber and is looking us to give him the green light.
Who am I to tell the guy to get something less.

Go buy one buddy and tell us how much fun it is.

I know its not a bike, but check out outriderusa.com Might be something unique enough for you. I know you said you dont want to build it, but 20 min to toss a hub wheel with a tire rack that holds the battery/controller with a slip on throttle doesnt really seem like "building" something. I get not wanting to have some long project. I build drag cars but i can take an hour and change a rear tire on a bike and install a bike rack. Gng 60volt kit and ping battery. again an hour for complete install. 1 hr of work and save 3 grand. just my 2 pennies

I'm with Remf, a Fighter sounds like it would be a better fit for you. Lighter than the Bomber, with practically the same power/weight ratio when stock.
The smaller profile of the Fighter helps it blend in that little bit better, and the lower top speed means your less likely to accidentally fly past the wrong person at ridiculous speeds.
I think Dogman's right, the Bomber leans more towards a motorbike than a mountain bike, however the Fighter leans more towards a mountain bike than a motorbike IMO. I think it mainly comes down to weight. Once you go much over 35kg, it becomes increasingly difficult to make anything feel 'bike like'.
That being said, the Fighter certainly doesn't lack power.
The stock Fighter controller programming prevents most rear wheel spin and lifting of the front wheel, but it's more than capable of doing both. Once I swapped in my own controller, the Fighter (even at stock power levels) is very capable off road.
Once I put together my own battery upgrade and started pushing 5-6KW through it, it turned an awesome bike into what can only be described as a pocket rocket. This thing flies, and at less than 40kg, it's still very nimble and capable.

Hope that helps.

Cheers

I needed to be more sure what your expectations were, before recommending a huge hubmotor bike.

I love my medium huge hubmotor, but I don't ride one in dirt anymore. I have the now unavailable crystalyte 5304 on my cargo bike, where it's weight is barely noticed. It rides street great, or even dirt roads that are not made of loose rocks the size of grapefruits. It's a great motor, with so much more grunt in it than I normally use, that I never worry about melting it.

So get a nice greyborg, or stealth bomber and enjoy it. I'm sure now you will love it. But it will not feel bike. It will feel like the funnest, lightest motorcycle you ever threw a leg over.

I was not aware that HPC was coming out with a chain drive. They have been doing high power hubmotor bikes for years, using lighter but more vulnerable to overheating motors. They must be gunning for Optibike now.

If you wanted a more bike like ride on serious trails, the bottom bracket drives are the future for sure. Those are aimed for people that come from pedaling, rather than motorcycles. Motorcycle people have no problems loving a big hubmotor. It will handle fine on any normal dirt road. Here, we have mine roads that are pure rocks, and power line roads that take a beeline regardless of terrain. For those I came to prefer a lighter hub, but it's DIY stuff since I melt a motor a year riding that way.

Hi,

educate yourself:
http://www.electricbike.com/2014-mid-drive/

10 Factory Mid Drives for Electric Bikes in 2014

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http://www.electricbike.com/mid-drive-kits/

Some of the most refined electric bikes on the market are mid drives. And until recently, if you wanted a mid drive electric bike you were stuck buying an under-powered and overly-priced 250-watt Euro electric bike. Or…if you wanted a powerful bike, your only choices then were a $10,000 plus USA bike (either the Optibike or the Hanebrink). Recently, several notable mid drive kits have come onto the market which allows someone on a budget to build a mid drive electric conversion that’s even more powerful than the factory mid drives.

Suddenly electric bike builders have a lot of choices between putting together a hub motor E-bike, or a mid drive…which to choose?

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http://www.electricbike.com/ten-most-expensive-electric-bikes/

The 10 Most Expensive Electric Bikes

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http://www.electricbike.com/10-fastest-electric-bikes/

Top 10 Fast Electric Bikes

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http://www.electricbike.com/specialized-super-charged/

Its ironic that in the same month that Specialized announced the release of their first electric bike and touting it as the “fastest ebike ever” (read Specialized Turbo article here), a DIY electric bike builder, Simon Howarth out of the UK converted a Specialized downhill mountain bike frame into one of the best (and fastest) full suspension ebikes ever created. Specialized spent hundreds of thousands of dollars, had infinite resources, and took 4 years with a secret team in Switzerland to create the Specialized Turbo.

Simon converted his Specialized Big Hit into an electric bad ass in under 3 months time and on a tight budget. In all, Simons development and build cost him less that the $7,000 price tag of what a single Specialized Turbo would cost the consumer to buy. What is ironic is what Simon built out of his garage is probably more desirable to most consumers (and much faster) than the expensive big company creation the Specialized Turbo.

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http://www.electricbike.com/stealth-hot-rod/

Many would wonder why anyone would want to modify such a well-proven package like the Stealth Bomber or the Stealth Fighter and I suppose the simple answer is “because we can”. In my case I wanted to differentiate both my Bomber and Fighter from the standard offering, but in two completely different ways. In the case of the Bomber, the project was all about in your face grunt and speed…however with the Fighter, modifications were practically the inverse and they were all about making the E-bike as light and nimble as possible. Both E-bikes relied on the installation of Lithium Polymer batteries (LiPo) and custom controllers to achieve the desired results. Read on to see how these two very different objectives were reached

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http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=57161

That is another learning curve, however. I can tell you I want to minimize drive system weight as much as possible while containing the juice for 60 to 80mph power wheelies.

This first scooter is an exercise in what is possible with a scooter platform. A scooter is cheap to buy, cheap to insure, and small as well as light. This makes a relatively reasonable project to build. We will judge the market for high performance E scooters by building and showing it off.

The I C guys cannot comprehend the power available in a scooter size electric package. The most powerful Ruckuss I have ever seen used a 600cc maxi-scooter engine and was roughly 40hp. It weighted a friggin TON and was very long (it looked awesome, though). This thing should be way over the top, while being real life useable.

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I'd also check some of Matt's (recumpence) ebike build threads.

Well, been sitting in a skilift all weekend, with very litte time to hang out at the forums.

So, I've read most of the links and also done some more thinking and now I'm no longer so sure the biggest is the better. As most of you have said the bomber might feel too much like a motorcycle, and when thinking more about it, if I wanted to go about at a steady speed of 50mph+ I'd be better of with my sumo anyways.

Now I'm turning more towards the Fighter or even the HPC mid-drive(if only they could release some more info/spec...) However im still abit unsure about the whole no-throttle deal, having to pedal to get the juice as the deal seems to be with most middies..

awww, my brain hurts.


/Bejk

If I wanted to cruise at 50+mph, this is what I'd buy.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Electric-Motorcycle-Conversion-Kit-3000W-Brushless-Motor-w-gear-disc-brake-/251471666735

wesnewell said:

If I wanted to cruise at 50+mph, this is what I'd buy.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Electric-Motorcycle-Conversion-Kit-3000W-Brushless-Motor-w-gear-disc-brake-/251471666735

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They use a motorcycle rim then lace it radially!! and the picture of one installed in a Bomber has a different rim and spoke pattern, I would trust these people!