2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

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2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Postby d8veh » Sat Mar 29, 2014 1:06 pm

I have the Xiongda 2-speed motor with internal gearbox. This is to me the most exciting thing since I've been involved with hub-motors. No fancy marketing BS. The technology works and could be adapted to any hub-motor. It's only a 15amp controller, but it can climb steep hills without pedalling. The internal gear-changing is fully automatic. It's just amazing. It even works with a 160mm disk. I hope they make a 500w version.
Last edited by spinningmagnets on Tue May 10, 2016 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby rp3 » Sat Mar 29, 2014 5:39 pm

......................
- BEONE HORNET PLUS - Bafang BBS02 750W -16kgs-(unpowered) - 12s 5.8Ah LiPO- 23kgs
- "Flight" DS bike - Bafang 500w rear (code11) soldered controller for 1.85kW. EM3ev triangle bag holding 14s 9Ah LiPO. CA v3. -28kgs-
- Giant Rincon 2002. Bafang 500w rear (code13) soldered controller for 1.35kW. 12s 4.5Ah LiPO. -23kgs-
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby Gregory » Sat Mar 29, 2014 6:24 pm

Cool.

Who sells them and how much do they cost?


1) x5305 Hub Motor in a 24" Sun rim with 10G spokes, Kelly 72601 controller, 74V 10Ah Turnigy LiPo 20C Battery and CycleAnalyst
2) Mac 10T rear hub in a 700C "comfort bike" 15S 5Ah LiPo, stock 28A Xie Cheng controller
3) 38" Longboard, Turnigy 6374, CC Mamba XL2 ESC
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby MitchJi » Sat Mar 29, 2014 7:29 pm

d8veh wrote:I have the Xiongda 2-speed motor with internal gearbox. This is to me the most exciting thing since I've been involved with hub-motors. No fancy marketing BS. The technology works and could be adapted to any hub-motor. It's only a 15amp controller, but it can climb steep hills without pedalling. The internal gear-changing is fully automatic. It's just amazing. It even works with a 160mm disk. I hope they make a 500w version.

To summarise, it works perfectly, doing everything that I had hoped. I'd be happy to use it as my only motor (at 44v). I'm now going to put it on my main bike to see how it gets on long-term. That'll be with a 36v battery. The only negative point is that it does make a it of mechanical noise - not like the normal geared motor noise.

Hi,

If it's so much nicer at 44V, why are you going run it long-term on 36V?
Last edited by MitchJi on Sat Mar 29, 2014 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
Best Wishes!

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby spinningmagnets » Sat Mar 29, 2014 7:31 pm

Tried my hand at removing a watermark:

Xiongda2Speed2.png


d8veh, is there anything I could do for you...to get you to pull your motor apart and take pics, plus measurements? I think we will be hearing quite a bit about this motor soon. I agree about wishing for a larger motor, perhaps 8-inches diameter...

Xiongda2Speed.png
Xiongda2Speed.png (180.4 KiB) Viewed 23955 times


Theres a parallel thread in the technical section, one page at this time:
"Xiongda 2-speed motor"
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=59369
Last edited by spinningmagnets on Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:07 am, edited 2 times in total. View post history.
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby Miles » Sun Mar 30, 2014 1:01 am

Abstract from the patent doc:

The utility model discloses a double speed hub motor which comprises a main shaft, a hub outer shell and a motor. The motor comprises a stator and a rotor, wherein the rotor is connected with an identical-direction identical-speed transmission chain which is connected with the hub outer shell through a clutch. The clutch comprises a clutch outer ring, a clutch seat, a big inner gear ring, and a small inner gear ring, wherein the identical-direction identical-speed transmission chain drives the big inner gear ring and the small inner gear ring respectively according to big transmission ratio and small transmission ratio. The small inner gear ring is located inside the clutch outer ring, the clutch seat is arranged between the clutch outer ring and the small inner gear ring and is fixed with the hub outer shell, and the big inner gear ring is fixed with the clutch outer ring. The inner wall and the outer wall of the clutch seat are both uniformly provided with a plurality of in-built balls along the circumferential direction and wedge-shaped grooves where the balls are stuck in the same direction, and further provided with ball modified gears in one-to-one correspondence to the balls in the wedge-shaped grooves of the outer wall of the clutch seat. Each ball modified gear comprises a push rod jacking one ball to a wide portion of one wedge-shaped groove and an electrical execution mechanism used for driving the push rod to move. The double speed hub motor is simple in structure, and speed variation can be completed without the need of forward rotating and reverse rotating of the motor.
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby d8veh » Sun Mar 30, 2014 4:04 am

spinningmagnets wrote:Tried my hand at removing a watermark:


d8veh, is there anything I could do for you...to get you to pull your motor apart and take pics, plus measurements? I think we will be hearing quite a bit about this motor soon. I agree about wishing for a larger motor, perhaps 8-inches diameter...

Xiongda2Speed.png


Yes, I'll do that if I can get it apart. I think it dismantles like a Q100. I have a lot on my plate already this week, and then I'm going to the Shanghai show, so it'll be about three weeks before I can do it.
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby d8veh » Sun Mar 30, 2014 4:11 am

MitchJi wrote:Hi,

If it's so much nicer at 44V, why are you going run it long-term on 36V?


Good question. I tried with a worn out 5aH 6S pack first. It was sagging to about 42v most of the time, and performance was still adequate for me. In my main bike, I have a nice light 20aH 36v battery, which is useful for the extra range and won't sag much at 15 amps, so I'll see if it gives enough power. I might solder the shunt for a bit more torque. If it's not enough, I have about 15aH of new 12S hard-packs to try.
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby cwah » Sun Mar 30, 2014 5:15 am

How does it compare to a BPM torque, efficiency and noise wise ?

Is it better to have a dual BPM set up for a 30Mph bike, or with this motor? :mrgreen:
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby d8veh » Sun Mar 30, 2014 12:20 pm

It still only has 15 amps, so there's no comparison with two BPMs at 30 amps each. It can only have a quarter of the power. Most of the time the noise is similar to any other 250w geared motor. Only when it's under a lot of stress and going slowly does it make a bad quality noise. The only way it'll do 30mph is if you throw it off a cliff. It's only a 250w motor.
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby melodious » Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:20 pm

Simple question: Does it gear up (speed) or gear down (torque) when the 1st gears threshold is reached :?:

From your original post, it seems to translate to gearing down to torque but still unsure.

Edit: Got off my lazy ass and found your opinion on the Pedelecs forum:
"Success! It works perfectly. It was fun riding round on my £5 bike. The whole bike and electrical kit only cost about £250.

I started with an old 9aH 36v LMC battery with Panasonic cells. In low-speed position, it was able to drag my 100kg up our 14% test hill without pedalling at 8km/hr. It didn't sound too happy at that speed.Once below 10km/hr, it started to male mechanical noise like resonance/dry bearing noise. Power is about the same as a normal 250w motor, but you can get more power out of due to the changing gear. In top gear, it'll pull its full 15 amps at 25km/hr like a 328 rpm Q100.

I then switched to a lipo pack that I haven't touched for about a year. It was averaging about 44v. That immediately transformed it into a really nice motor. It cruised up the 14% hill at 12km/h without the horrible grinding sound, and just felt more comfortable.

I then experimented with the switch positions. Left fixes high speed, right low speed, and middle is auto. It's so clever in auto, where it automatically shifts to low when climbing and high when the speed picks up. Top speed is about 35km/h on the flat without pedalling (5km/h less at 36v). I did about 4 miles without pedalling including up and down some steep hills at full throttle all the time. The motor and controller were barely warm afterwards.

To summarise, it works perfectly, doing everything that I had hoped. I'd be happy to use it as my only motor (at 44v). I'm now going to put it on my main bike to see how it gets on long-term. That'll be with a 36v battery. The only negative point is that it does make a it of mechanical noise - not like the normal geared motor noise." D8veh

This would make an interesting mid-drive :idea: when they start making bigger motors. A simple 3 speed IG hub combined with this would make interesting gear choices.
Last edited by melodious on Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby d8veh » Mon Mar 31, 2014 3:56 am

I'm not sure if I understand that first question. When you put the rocker-switch in the middle position, it's fully automatic. I'm not yet sure of the exact conditions under which it changes, but when a hill slows you down, it changes to a lower internal gear so that you get more torque and efficiency. As you speed up again after the hill, it changes to a higher ratio. It feels exactly the same as when you change an external gear on my GNG crank-drive bike. You can fix the gear ratio with the rocker-switch in the left or right position.
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby Rodney64 » Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:11 am

Where did you buy it from
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby WhatcomRider » Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:20 pm

Gregory wrote:Cool.
Who sells them and how much do they cost?

The manufacturer's website is: http://www.xiongdamotor.cn/en/index.html. For sales information contact bonnie@xiongdamotor.com.cn.
Back in September 2013 Bonnie quoted me $108 for the double-speed motor. I have not purchased one yet but may in the future.

I found out that the dropout widths available are 100mm (front) and 135 or 145mm (rear). The rear motor axle length is about 220mm which would work well for a fat bike.

There is more info on the double-speed motor at Alibaba: http://www.xiongdamotor.com.cn/custom_p ... Motor.html. I am glad to see this motor getting attention on ES. Thanks d8veh for taking the plunge on a new product. I look forward to learning more about it from users experiences.

P.S. I am wondering if a sine-wave controller like the S06S or S12S from BMS battery would work well with this motor to reduce the noise.
Kona Minute midtail cargo bike w/ dual 350W MAC kits, 36V/15Ah Headway battery kit, and CA V3 - heavy but very stable, eats hills.
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby friendly1uk » Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:55 pm

43Nm sounds healthy enough.

Anybody site any relevant motors torque?


Edit: With an 82% gain in torque, that first gear is worth maybe 200 watts. You can stick that into a few hubbies though. The real question is if it can ditch heat as well as normal designs. Although that totally ignores efficiency.

Edit: Side by side on abibaba the 145 motor looks a poor choice. Like they just moved the gear thread out a bit from the 135 model, meaning 5mm more dish to center the wheel
Last edited by friendly1uk on Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:20 pm, edited 2 times in total. View post history.
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby Gregory » Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:05 pm

Thanks WhatcomRider. Price is very good.


2 Speed hub motor
Last edited by Gregory on Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total. View post history.


1) x5305 Hub Motor in a 24" Sun rim with 10G spokes, Kelly 72601 controller, 74V 10Ah Turnigy LiPo 20C Battery and CycleAnalyst
2) Mac 10T rear hub in a 700C "comfort bike" 15S 5Ah LiPo, stock 28A Xie Cheng controller
3) 38" Longboard, Turnigy 6374, CC Mamba XL2 ESC
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby d8veh » Sat Apr 05, 2014 4:45 am

I've now done about 40 hilly miles on it- nearly all with 12S lipos at about 46V. I found out that if you put it on level 4 instead of 5, and then pedal it around, it's as quiet as any hub-motor. Level 5 is always noisy. As a European type pedal assist bike, it's pretty good. There's plenty of torque for climbing steep hills and good speed on the flat. Don't try and compare it with a 500w MAC at 40 amps. It's not a torque monster, but it's low internal gearing means that it can keep running fairly efficiently when climbing steep hills. Neither the controller nor motor have been anything more than warm enough to know that they've been used. I can't do any efficiency comparisons until about 2 weeks time because of other commitments.

I think that the controller uses two conditions to detect when to change gear: Current and speed. I'm still sure that it changes gear by changing rotation direction. I will get the definitive answer in about 2 weeks, when I get another one to disassemble unless someone beats me to it.

I think that these motors are going to make a lot of Europeans happy.
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby Miles » Sat Apr 05, 2014 4:54 am

d8veh wrote:I'm still sure that it changes gear by changing rotation direction.
Not according to the patent info I posted.....
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby Miles » Sat Apr 05, 2014 5:27 am

Patent drawing dimensioned.

17mm stator stack. 96mm airgap diameter.
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2-speed-hub-section-dim.gif
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby Miles » Sat Apr 05, 2014 5:50 am

Miles wrote:
d8veh wrote:I'm still sure that it changes gear by changing rotation direction.
Not according to the patent info I posted.....
Well..... you may be right, D8ve :)

Another patent has been uploaded to the database which wasn't there when I looked before.....
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby Miles » Sat Apr 05, 2014 5:53 am

This one is indeed a retro-direct type.

The utility model discloses an electric vehicle double speed motor which comprises a motor, a shaft, a bearing, a stator and a rotor. Rotor output is respectively in transmission connection with a forward transmission chain and a reverse transmission chain. The forward transmission piece of the output end of the forward transmission chain and the reverse transmission piece of the output end of the reverse transmission chain are in transmission connection with an output transmission piece through a clutch. The electric vehicle double speed motor is characterized in that the clutch comprises an output gear, a reverse clutch seat, a forward clutch seat and an inner gear ring, wherein the inner wall of the reverse clutch seat is provided with grooves which are uniformly distributed along the circumferential direction, the inner side of each groove is provided with a roller, the grooves are ladder-shaped, the outer wall of the reverse clutch seat is provided with check blocks which are uniformly distributed along the circumferential direction, the check blocks are located in notches of the inner wall of the forward clutch seat, the notches and the check blocks together constitute an attached idle running mechanism, the outer wall of the forward clutch seat is provided with wedge-shaped notches along the tangential direction, rollers are arranged in the wedge-shaped notches, one end of each roller is provided with a poking block capable of poking the roller, a protrusion capable of poking the poking block is arranged between each two check blocks of the reverse clutch seat, and the protrusions abuts against the poking blocks. The electric vehicle double speed motor has the advantages of being simple in structure, few in used parts and components, stable in operation, low in manufacturing cost, convenient to install, and low in noise.
Attachments
RD-2-speed-hub-section.gif
RD-2-speed-hub-section.gif (119.41 KiB) Viewed 23121 times
RD-2-speed-hub-section-2.gif
RD-2-speed-hub-section-2.gif (163.38 KiB) Viewed 23121 times
CN202696363U.pdf
(419.83 KiB) Downloaded 239 times
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby Miles » Sat Apr 05, 2014 6:35 am

Dimensioned section
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RD-2-speed-hub-section-dim.gif (150.67 KiB) Viewed 23113 times
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby Miles » Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:25 pm

As far as I can make out (solely from the drawings!):

Sun gear [5] is connected to and turns with the rotor [4] of the motor.

Sun gear [5] is engaged with compound planet gears [6] which rotate on bearings [8] on planet carrier [7] which is keyed [9] to the central axle [1]

The minor planet gears engage with ring gear [10] and spur gear [18].

Ring gear [10] and spur gear [18] are both connected to the hub shell via opposing roller ramp one-way clutches [12 & 16].

The difference between low and high gears is set by the ratio of ring gear [10] to spur gear [18].

Any flaws so far?
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby spinningmagnets » Sat Apr 05, 2014 8:37 pm

This thing is bugging me, and I really want to understand it...I get a feeling that the rocker arms that de-clutch the balls between blue and red are the key. If the orange hollow shaft is spinning Clock-Wise (CW), then both of them would be coupled.

Between the green and blue elements, there are three tangential-acting coil-springs. I suspect they are very strong.

I can't tell if the blue element is one piece or three pieces...if three: The shape of the three blue elements near the rocker arms seems to indicate that when the green element moves in a relative CW direction, the curve of the green mating surface pushes the blue elements outward like an old cars brake shoes, while the three rocker arms de-couple the balls.

I suspect the red element is the edge of a bowl shape and it is the face of the bowl that the planet gears are attached to. When the planet gear mounting face is free to spin, the combined ratios of the dual reduction is the roughly 8:1, and then...when the planet-gear mounting plate is stationary, it is the 4:1 ratio?

2SpeedFreewheel.png
Last edited by spinningmagnets on Sat Apr 05, 2014 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby WhatcomRider » Sat Apr 05, 2014 11:29 pm

Here are the external dimensions of the 135mm and 145mm dropout versions of the Xiongda rear motors.

Xiongda2speed135mm.jpg
Xiongda2speed135mm.jpg (88.14 KiB) Viewed 23000 times


Xiongda2speed145mm.jpg
Xiongda2speed145mm.jpg (92.46 KiB) Viewed 23000 times
Kona Minute midtail cargo bike w/ dual 350W MAC kits, 36V/15Ah Headway battery kit, and CA V3 - heavy but very stable, eats hills.
GT Timberline MTB w/ integrated torque-sensor motor, sine-wave controller, and LCD display - nice, smooth, quiet ride.
Ultra Motor Europa pre-built - good range, but noisy brushed Heinzmann motor struggles up hills.
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