2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

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cycleops612   10 kW

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fyi bonnie from XD response

Post by cycleops612 » Apr 19 2017 3:05am

FYI, a response fr bonnie at XD

re "Last I checked, u dont have a 24" wheel & hub kit?

is this still so?

I would consider cast alloy wheel w/ integrated hub motor.

its for an adult tricycle, & they are mostly 24"

is it true rolling trikes backwards damages the xd hub?"


bonnie:

"now we have one 24inch black rim in stock.
so we can offer you one 24" wheel&hub kit.

But we do not have a intergrated 24inch rim motor for double-speed motor.

in the first year, we did not find the problem of the clutch,
so the clutch will get stucked when you pull the bike backwards.
However we solved this problem, you can push the bike backwards
as hard as you want, no problem."

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by cycleops612 » Apr 19 2017 3:22am

knutselmaaster wrote:The most interesting part is that it provides a lot of torque at 250w. Here in Europe 250w is the legal power limit so installing a bigger motor isn't an option.
even 1 kw hub motor sucks for the rockies or appalachian terrain.

I like mid drive too, but clearly, many prefer the simplicity and cost of hubs, & so, 2 speed beats the hell out of 1 speed.

pedaling isnt as effective on mid drives also - u r stuck~ with gearing the motor likes, which may not suit pedaling.

I did want to share with folks tho, that i dont like cucumber, since it seems ok here.

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by knutselmaaster » Apr 19 2017 3:34am

An aftermarket mid drive is harder to install and often one has to modify the bike frame. Also they are ugly/very visible. And they cause wear and tear on the drive train. Of course, for really heavy climbing they perform better because they take advantage of the bike's gearing.

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by Ykick » Apr 19 2017 10:27am

knutselmaaster wrote:An aftermarket mid drive is harder to install and often one has to modify the bike frame. Also they are ugly/very visible. And they cause wear and tear on the drive train. Of course, for really heavy climbing they perform better because they take advantage of the bike's gearing.
Don't agree. In fact, BBS02/HD systems readily swap around to different bikes with little trouble and fuss. Good luck doing that with a hub wheel motor. And let's not forget how often hub motors require filing the dropouts deeper, dishing of the rim, significant unsprung weight. Also require tools to change wheels/tires, fix flats, etc.

I have fondness for hub motors since that's what I used for over a decade and I resisted mid drive for a long time but Bafang BB drives have become my preference.
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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by bigoilbob » Apr 19 2017 10:44am

"I like mid drive too, but clearly, many prefer the simplicity and cost of hubs, & so, 2 speed beats the hell out of 1 speed."

Well said, cy.

An update. My 48 v, 15 a, XD on a 16" tire, mounted to a Bike E2 tandem, just got back from 2 months in Florida. It was just the thing for darting in and out of Ft. Myers beach bumper to bumper. We have ~900 miles on it. But when I got back it made a little noise. Took it apart, and had water in it - probably thru the wire bundle, and probably picked up while being racked home in rainstorms. All gears looked great, all clutches worked well. Dried it out, relubed with PTFE grease/oil, and reinstalled in one PM. Running well now. Lesson - maybe tape up the junction between the rubber bolt cover and the wire bundle, where the bundle enters the rubber bolt cover.

Separately, I don't think it's "junk". Some folks have gone many thousands of miles, ok. But I do think that hot rodding it is a bad idea. I also believe in the PTFE grease/oil, as suggested long ago in this thread.

As for the mid-drive/hub comparison, I'm with cyclops and kn. My motor is almost invisible to those not looking for it, and is VERY quiet. The low speed, especially with 16" wheel, gets 2 of us up and down fine, in a hilly city. The shifting is flawless. No extra drive train stress/complexity. My wife and SIL routinely rode the XD equipped tandem in Florida, and they have NO bike or e bike tech expertise.

I can see a mid in San Fran or truly mountainous terrain. Otherwise, hard to beat a hub at once so light and torquey.....

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by cycleops612 » Apr 19 2017 3:13pm

as i said, i like mid drives (PARTLY influenced by Oz having EU rules of 2-250w max power street legal), but since XD is unfairly slagged off here, then to be the devils advocate, midS achilles heel is the drive train. ~Delicate, non redundant & fiddly.

if a hub motor breaks on the road, u can pedal home. if chain/transmission breaks, u can motor home.

mid drive breaks its transmission, u walk it home.

and as i said, pedals can have their own separate gearing, appropriate to pedaling. If u r in the right gear, an easy brief spurt of pedaling is a very effective power/torque reserve & range extender.

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by cycleops612 » Apr 19 2017 3:41pm

bigoilbob wrote:"I like mid drive too, but clearly, many prefer the simplicity and cost of hubs, & so, 2 speed beats the hell out of 1 speed."

Well said, cy.

An update. My 48 v, 15 a, XD on a 16" tire, mounted to a Bike E2 tandem, just got back from 2 months in Florida. It was just the thing for darting in and out of Ft. Myers beach bumper to bumper. We have ~900 miles on it. But when I got back it made a little noise. Took it apart, and had water in it - probably thru the wire bundle, and probably picked up while being racked home in rainstorms. All gears looked great, all clutches worked well. Dried it out, relubed with PTFE grease/oil, and reinstalled in one PM. Running well now. Lesson - maybe tape up the junction between the rubber bolt cover and the wire bundle, where the bundle enters the rubber bolt cover.

Separately, I don't think it's "junk". Some folks have gone many thousands of miles, ok. But I do think that hot rodding it is a bad idea. I also believe in the PTFE grease/oil, as suggested long ago in this thread.

As for the mid-drive/hub comparison, I'm with cyclops and kn. My motor is almost invisible to those not looking for it, and is VERY quiet. The low speed, especially with 16" wheel, gets 2 of us up and down fine, in a hilly city. The shifting is flawless. No extra drive train stress/complexity. My wife and SIL routinely rode the XD equipped tandem in Florida, and they have NO bike or e bike tech expertise.

I can see a mid in San Fran or truly mountainous terrain. Otherwise, hard to beat a hub at once so light and torquey.....
Glad u had a nice break & the bike was the boon i can quite believe it was.

I love the term "RV dingy" - an ebike strapped to the back of RVS as a runabout once arrived at campsite.

yeah, 16" (i would prefer bigger for the ride - 24"?) wheels should yield low gearing anyhow on any hub motor.

Just musing, but if u ever need a power boost for the tandem, a dd hub on other wheel would yield regen as a bonus, and could operate exclusively in its RPM comfort zone, since the xd is v low geared for getting rolling. Conversely, the; durable, single moving part, DD hub, takes some stress and heat away from the XDs gears, dropouts and spokes.

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by Alan B » Apr 19 2017 9:10pm

A good controller can limit the power properly at the higher voltage and prevent overheating.

What I'm looking for is a small, light hub that can still climb 15% gradients. Regular small hubs generate too much heat at the torque levels required for steeper climbing. The lower gearing allows this by reducing the torque required from the motor.

Like anything, there are tradeoffs, and some solutions are better than others depending on the situation.

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by Ykick » Apr 19 2017 11:15pm

Take a flat on hub motor with no tools you're walking home same as a busted transmission on a mid drive.

Humans tend to like/prefer what they know. Some folks have not extensively used both systems. I have...
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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by bigoilbob » Apr 20 2017 4:18pm

Ykick wrote:Take a flat on hub motor with no tools you're walking home same as a busted transmission on a mid drive.

Humans tend to like/prefer what they know. Some folks have not extensively used both systems. I have...

Have to defer to your experience, as mine is not "extensive". But have you ridden an XD? If not, then I think they are qualitatively better than anything you have "used", extensively or no. Seems like it should be app driven, and for the right niche, an XD wins out......

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by cycleops612 » Apr 20 2017 11:26pm

bigoilbob wrote:
Ykick wrote:Take a flat on hub motor with no tools you're walking home same as a busted transmission on a mid drive.

Humans tend to like/prefer what they know. Some folks have not extensively used both systems. I have...

Have to defer to your experience, as mine is not "extensive". But have you ridden an XD? If not, then I think they are qualitatively better than anything you have "used", extensively or no. Seems like it should be app driven, and for the right niche, an XD wins out......
e.g. my niche is, much as i love my ebike(s) & dislike the girth of a trike, the 50kg constant companion dog, is just too old to trot along on any decent journey now.

So am looking for a used 24" adult tricycle, & shall add a 24" XD front wheel, w/ its essential low gear.

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by Alan B » May 09 2017 3:45pm

Last Sunday the test motor from Luna was installed on my folding bike, and a brief test ride was made. The two speeds are selected by the PAS settings, "L" for low, and "0-5" for high in this 20" front motor wheel the speeds achieved on the level are about 10 and 20 mph with a 52V battery.

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by Alan B » May 10 2017 9:55am

As I set up to do these motor tests, are there any suggestions or requests?

There will be a separate thread for the full review, but this Xiongda motor from Luna Cycle is on topic here as well.

At this stage I'm organizing the wiring and working on mounting the tiny sinewave controller and making provisions for carrying the small Luna battery in the rear triangle. Goals include not interfering with the folding process and keeping the bike light. With the Xiongda motor in a 20 inch wheel the torque is substantial (for a small hubmotor), especially in low gear. The speed is moderate and legal at 20. The power peaks I've seen so far have been in the 600W region, but that is dependent on load and speed and will increase as I present it with various gradients.

I have not weighed the whole bike yet but it is refreshingly light, much different from the usual 50-80 pound electric bike. I just weighted the bike at 33.5 pounds not including battery and the Luna battery at 3.5. So all up weight will be about 37 pounds. It needs a side view mirror, I feel unsafe without one. The feeling on the road is very light and nimble, and I can pedal the 8 speed chain transmission without motor power just fine up to about 28 mph.

This motor wheel kit was provided by Luna Cycle for testing and review. I am providing the rest including a new bike and battery. The battery happens to be from Luna as well, but is a unit I purchased earlier.

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by leelorr » May 10 2017 10:21am

I would like your opinion on the noise level when accelerating and when cruising in high.

I will probably have to call Luna with this question, but does the motor width appear to be closer to 135mm if no disk brake rotor is used (I have an Aluminum framed "V-brake" bike that I am thinking of converting)?

Thanks,
Leelorr

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by Alan B » May 10 2017 11:09am

leelorr wrote:I would like your opinion on the noise level when accelerating and when cruising in high.

I will probably have to call Luna with this question, but does the motor width appear to be closer to 135mm if no disk brake rotor is used (I have an Aluminum framed "V-brake" bike that I am thinking of converting)?

Thanks,
Leelorr
So far the motor noise has been negligible in either gear.

Without disc brakes the motor width for a front motor is just slightly over the standard width, perhaps a couple of mm. I did spread the front forks very slightly to get the motor in (my forks are steel). I recall there are drawings on the Xiongda site showing dimensions, and the disc brake models were definitely wider than normal whereas the non disk brake models were less. Good to verify that, I don't have a rear motor to measure.

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by bigoilbob » May 11 2017 8:32pm

Alan B wrote:Last Sunday the test motor from Luna was installed on my folding bike, and a brief test ride was made. The two speeds are selected by the PAS settings, "L" for low, and "0-5" for high in this 20" front motor wheel the speeds achieved on the level are about 10 and 20 mph with a 52V battery.

Since this is the same shift process as is the XD, please clarify. Does your Luna shift automatically? If not, then how?

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by Alan B » May 13 2017 12:58am

The speeds are selected via the PAS settings, as described above. "L" for low gear, and any other PAS setting for high speed. This is controlled with the on/plus/minus switch typically by the left thumb.

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by knutselmaaster » May 13 2017 1:01am

Contrarily to the original XD, the Luna doesn't have automatic shifting.

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by Alan B » May 13 2017 1:06am

Comparing all up weight to same bike with BBS02, the Xiongda is about 2 pounds lighter.

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by Alan B » May 13 2017 1:17am

knutselmaaster wrote:Contrarily to the original XD, the Luna doesn't have automatic shifting.
This has been made clear from the outset. It is a choice that Luna made which allowed them to use different controllers and displays.

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by ScooterMan101 » May 13 2017 1:40am

What would be your estimate on a Rear 2 Speed Xiongda , laced to a 650b ( 27.5 ) Rim ?
In low
and High ?

Of main interest is what top speed on 650b ?

and

Even more important what speed would be the lowest when going up a very steep mountain , so as to not lug down the motor to the point of overheating/shutdown ?
Meaning what speed would you have to keep at or above at all times when riding up steep mountains ?

I would be interested in Luna providing rear extended dropouts since the Rear is something like 145 mm wide/ the Xiongda needs the dropout spacing to be 145 mm.
Rear dropouts adaptors , like the custom ones that people make when they have a modern mountain bike with through axle rear dropouts .

Alan B wrote:Last Sunday the test motor from Luna was installed on my folding bike, and a brief test ride was made. The two speeds are selected by the PAS settings, "L" for low, and "0-5" for high in this 20" front motor wheel the speeds achieved on the level are about 10 and 20 mph with a 52V battery.
My first conversion ... Sold

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=71378&p=1077497&hil ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, ( now 2019 ) lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by Alan B » May 13 2017 1:58am

You can do a simple proportion from the 20" wheel to the 27.5" and get a high speed of around 27 mph and a low speed of half that. Reality will vary by actual tire sizes and will drop at higher speeds due to motor loading.

More factors get involved when estimating motor torque and power handling on long gradients, it would be best to work from experience with a larger wheel, such as 26", rather than extrapolating from 20".

At this point I have not done any thermal testing.

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by ScooterMan101 » May 13 2017 2:25am

Since Eric said in another thread on the motor, he ordered the kit with a thermal shut off function , that engages when the motor reaches a certain temperature.

Riding up various hills at different speeds will get the results, however you are using 20 inch wheel, most people will want to put the Xiongda on a 26 or 27.5 inch wheel.

So any results from your bike will not be a good test / will not be good enough test results , of the motor for most buyers , in regard to going up hills.

Will he send you a rear ? That you will put on a 27.5 , since most bikes are coming with that size wheel these days.



Alan B wrote:
At this point I have not done any thermal testing.
My first conversion ... Sold

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=71378&p=1077497&hil ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, ( now 2019 ) lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by Alan B » May 13 2017 9:24am

The Luna version of the dual speed geared motor has an internal temperature sensor, presumably supplied by Xiongda. The display/controller (reportedly from different suppliers) combo reads this sensor and is programmed to protect it when the motor exceeds a set temperature. Eric and his crew apparently did the programming, according to his videos.

I have no plans for testing in larger wheels. The small wheels are an excellent fit for this small motor, and will provide the best climbing performance. The speeds will be reduced, but correspond nicely to the new California Ebike law speeds for type I and type II ebikes. In 27.5 wheels the speed would correspond to type III ebike and would not be allowed on bike trails.

A dual speed motor in a 27.5 would be interesting, perhaps someone else will do that test. A 2WD version might be especially interesting, with synchronized manual or automatic shifting. Overlapping the shifts might be used to advantage.

The bike I'm testing in has steel front forks and rim brakes so the slightly wide non disc motor is not a problem to fit, and torque arms are not needed. The much wider disc versions are more difficult to fit into a frame due to the required width. Perhaps titanium or steel frames would be best for that situation.

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by ScooterMan101 » May 13 2017 10:22am

Alan,

Real Tarmac Speeds and Calculated Speeds are different I have found , by experience with two other brands of Hub Motors.

Calculated Speeds are only reached a very small percent of the time, Very Small Amount , You must have all / many of the perfect conditions like

Flat Ground/ More like slight down slope like 1% or more down .
No Wind
Fully Charged Battery ( Speeds go down as the battery charge is used , even after just a few miles )
You did not pump up the tires to recamended or high pressure, or you have touring tires like me that have high rolling resistance ( but good long life)
No Debris or Sand or Dirt on the Road
No high drag items like panniers ,
Etc.

So that 2 speed Xiongda should/would ... really still be within Type I and II , especially when you factor in the low wattage of that motor .

Now keep in mind that I, and many other people don't go all that fast on trails, I never have gone 20 mph on a trail, unless it was for a very short distance down a very steep mountain , and I mean for a very short distance because there are always turns, rocks, ruts, debris , hikers coming up the Mountain, etc. And over 15 mph down hill really beats up your body .
There are some young adrenaline junkies that will go over legal speeds on trails, most all of them are on , Non Motorized Bikes .

Add to that , I and most people slow down to even under 15 mph when riding on bike paths and trails , I do typically 12-14 on bike paths , even less when passing people, out of plain and simple courtesy to other path and trail users.
I do go speeds like the Young/Fit Serious Lycra non motorized , Roadie's when I am on back country roads, ... not on Paths or Trails.
So that Xiongda will be legal .

I understand the smaller the wheel the higher the torque and slower the speed equation/theory ,
However
Eric is looking to sell products, to do that he has to market/and sell to what the customer market is , and wants .

While there are a few people in the country that ride 20 inch bikes, and would convert a 20 inch wheel bike to electric.
there are Thousands/Millions , that ride 26" / 27.5" / and 29 er bikes.

You might have no interest in the Main / Larger Market for that motor.
So
Who is interested in testing and reviewing the Xiongda in a 26"/27.5"/29er wheel ? ( I am, but I would have to buy a new bike frame, or have custom made , wider rear dropouts )
My first conversion ... Sold

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=71378&p=1077497&hil ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, ( now 2019 ) lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

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