2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby turbo1889 » Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:28 pm

The more I learn about these motors the more I'm getting an itch to try one.

Where are you guys sourcing these? Are you buying from the listings on alibaba dot com, or what? I keep hoping someone is going to pop up on e-bay selling them since I trust that sight a whole lot more then the alibaba sight system and it has better feedback confirmation and is more directed towards single purchase individual buyers rather then bulk wholesale buyers like the alibaba sight.

Also sounds like the smart thing to do is to open them up from the get-go and repack the gear grease preferably with a high performance high end quality gear grease before install to ensure quite long life service. Been reports that the stock grease isn't that high quality and they don't put enough in and you can start to loose adequate lubrication over time and they get loud (and obviously probably not good for wear on the gears).

The extra width isn't a problem for me, I use almost exclusively steel frames and often weld my own or at least modify existing steel frames so not an issue to widen up the rear drop outs.

I'm thinking this motor would be really good for an absolute minimalist and stealth e-bike commuter rear hub install with battery in a safe bag in a back-pack. Problem with that plan using a small geared rear hub motor in the past for me was that it didn't give good hill climbing help and top end help both it was either one or the other and even with choosing the slowest winding possible for maximum hill climbing help they still didn't give very good hill climbing assist. The two speed retro-direct gearing system this hub uses seems to solve that problem and in its lower gear it sounds like its a pretty good hill climber for its size and I like in an area where hills is the name of the game and climbing mountain passes is very much in the game as well. Before this motor became available the only option available along these lines was the SRAM rear hub but I really don't like its internal controller I much prefer an external controller and the ability to have a manual throttle and not be limited to pedal sensor alone (although PAS can be nice as well in some situations like in-town traffic where you don't want to have to think about anything other then what the yo-yos in their big metal boxes are doing around you and you just pedal and it all works automatically. So PAS with manual throttle over-ride would be my preference and it sounds like this motor can be set-up in that manner.

Anyway, Long Story Short ----- Where can I order one from?
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby d8veh » Wed Jun 25, 2014 4:17 am

I ordered mine through Alibaba, but it would probably be best to seal directly with the factory. They'll send you a pro-forma invoice that you can pay with Paypal. Try and keep comms short and to the point. Use links where you can. Their English isn't fantastic:

http://www.xiongdamotor.cn/en/index.html

Yona will sort you out:

yona@xiongdamotor.com.cn
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby cwah » Wed Jun 25, 2014 5:40 am

I'm ordering the motor in the uk. Anyone in the uk who is also interested by the motor just contact me we could reduce charge. Especially customs charge!
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby ferret » Wed Jun 25, 2014 6:14 am

d8veh wrote:
cwah wrote:you mean reversing phase wiring? I don't know any controller that can do that


No, it's done by software. These controllers have two additional jumper wires. When they're connected, the motor runs in one direction, and when disconnected, it goes the other way. The wires go straight to the CPU as an input. The software in the CPU changes the timing sequence.


I tried reversing a motor's rotation using the jumper wires (a Lyen 6 FET Infinion controller and a GNGm motor). It looked like the motor wasn't reaching the same RPM when the wires were jumpered as it was when they weren't. I ended up changing the hall and phase wire order to reverse the direction.
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby turbo1889 » Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:04 am

Thanks for the info on where to get buy from !!! Much appreciated !!!


As to controllers capable of reversing, I've seen a few direct drive hub motor controllers capable of accepting a reverse button often a simple plastic collar with button that mounts on the other side of the handlebar inboard of the hand grip opposite of the throttle control in position to be pressed and held to engage reverse. Often used on trikes especially to allow backing up under the direct drive hubs power. If such controllers could handle the electronic RPM of this geared motor I imagine they would work to engage the second speed by use of the reverse button. Not sure what all controllers out there have such a feature but I have seen it and ridden a bike that had it (accidentally pressing the reverse button when moving forward at speed was highly inadvisable unless you wanted to experience the ultimate in electric motor braking effect :shock: ).

So if one is intent on using a different controller then supplied with the motor such direct drive hub motors wired for such a reverse button might be an option. If it were me I would set-up such that the lower gear was the reverse gear so holding the reverse button would only be necessary when low gear was needed when climbing hills or for a short burst when pulling off from a dead stop. Better in my opinion then having to hold down the button when cruising at high speed.

The controller made for the motor by the company though is probably the only one currently capable of doing an automatic gear change between the two speeds. There are other controllers out there that have functionality for a manual motor reverse switch that with this motor results in a gearing change but I've never heard of one that does it automatically as a gear change except for the controller made for this motor and obviously the built in controller buried inside the SRAM hub which works on the same principle does the same thing but its built in and is listed as a non user serviceable part (which obviously means little to some with the skill levels on this forum but does mean it might be a little difficult to get that controller outside of buying the whole SRAM hub).


I'm planning on just using the controller made for the motor and buying the two together (might hold out a little longer hoping for a little better sourcing options but push come to shove I think I've just got to try one of these out).
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby panurge » Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:48 am

First picture!!!
DSCF3794.JPG
DSCF3794.JPG (145.39 KiB) Viewed 1991 times

.....pack delivered, via DHL.....5 days, week-end included...
Service is very good, shipping cost has been one of the cheaper I've seen from Asia, English is not perfect, but better than other experiences with Asian dealers/manufacturers and definitively understandable, maybe similar to mine :oops: .
I've purchased directly from the factory, but I think that the Aliexpress contact works pretty the same way.

You may note the customizations on both hubs, and the 2 different controller/display combos.

The Hub of choice for the 170mm fat dropout is a drum brake version (the wider of the 2speed) basically with threads both sides... I'll try to use a screw on adapter for the 44mm iso pattern and maintain the disc brake.
This way the dropout width is at about 166mm....

Cheers
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby sanzo » Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:50 pm

panurge wrote:First picture!!!
DSCF3794.JPG

.....pack delivered, via DHL.....5 days, week-end included...
Service is very good, shipping cost has been one of the cheaper I've seen from Asia, English is not perfect, but better than other experiences with Asian dealers/manufacturers and definitively understandable, maybe similar to mine :oops: .
I've purchased directly from the factory, but I think that the Aliexpress contact works pretty the same way.

You may note the customizations on both hubs, and the 2 different controller/display combos.

The Hub of choice for the 170mm fat dropout is a drum brake version (the wider of the 2speed) basically with threads both sides... I'll try to use a screw on adapter for the 44mm iso pattern and maintain the disc brake.
This way the dropout width is at about 166mm....

Cheers



Hi,
Could you tell me the price this motor kit??
I am very very interested in it. ^^

Thanks
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby spinningmagnets » Sun Jun 29, 2014 10:52 am

Wrote about these. Great idea, hope it gets developed further...

"2-speed hub motors, E-matic and Xiongda"
http://www.electricbike.com/2-speed-e-matic-xiongda/
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby r3volved » Sun Jun 29, 2014 11:20 am

spinningmagnets wrote:Wrote about these. Great idea, hope it gets developed further...

"2-speed hub motors, E-matic and Xiongda"
http://www.electricbike.com/2-speed-e-matic-xiongda/

Ha, I just read that last night.

This looks like it would be a sweet solution for my area. A few steeper hills but mainly flats. I went with a mid drive because I see a lot of scooters bogging down around the hills here and I like to trail ride, but I sacrifice silence and stealth...which is also the most common negative feedback that I get from others about my bike.
I'm looking forward to some reviews roll in
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby Tench » Sun Jun 29, 2014 11:38 am

spinningmagnets wrote:Wrote about these. Great idea, hope it gets developed further...

"2-speed hub motors, E-matic and Xiongda"
http://www.electricbike.com/2-speed-e-matic-xiongda/


That is an interesting article you wrote. I had never seen the Retro direct 2 speed system before, very ingenious, but you have a fact wrong, studying the system both freewheels drive when the sprockets are driven clockwise so would both be installed the same way round not opposite as you describe in the article. during normal pedalling the smaller one drives and the larger one turns anticlockwise so freewheels, pedalling in reverse turns the bigger one forward making it drive and the smaller on reverses and freewheels.

Any mid mount motor could be chained up this way with a reversible controller to make a 2 speed setup! :idea:
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby spinningmagnets » Sun Jun 29, 2014 5:43 pm

Thanks! the correction has been made...
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby panurge » Mon Jun 30, 2014 3:50 am

Thanks for the link to your article....

Anyway, since I already have a build thread for this 20" fatty....I will continue there with the 20" XD 2 speed motor updates....
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=59877&p=914152#p914152.

Cheers
Last edited by panurge on Mon Jun 30, 2014 3:50 am, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby endlessly_ending » Tue Jul 01, 2014 3:47 pm

I intend to buy the Lishui sine controller + KM5S display, but meanwhile I thougt it might be fun to give the s12s sine wave torque controller a try.

Sadly no luck.
At roughly the speed the controller changes to sine, the XiongDa goes loud and slows down immediately.

Programming P5 with the LCD display differntly (85-250) doesn't seem to change anything. The wheel speed isn't displayed anyway.
A Xin Feng / MXUS hub runs fine on the S12S and the XiongDa 2 speed hub runs fine on the combo controller.
But the XiongDa does not seem to like the S12S - or vice versa

Any ideas anybody?
Last edited by endlessly_ending on Tue Jul 01, 2014 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby silviasol » Tue Jul 01, 2014 5:15 pm

This makes me want to build a 20" ebike now. However it seems to me the gearing may damage under stress, say I am mashing down a trail then hit a hill with tree veins, think the shock of that tree vein (or anything similar/bumpy) while downshifting will damage it after many times? Just seems to me a tiny transmission like that would break.
Last edited by silviasol on Tue Jul 01, 2014 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby panurge » Tue Jul 01, 2014 6:15 pm

2 questions make me think about these 2 speed motors.....
Basically the motor is a common motor....so you should expect it runs exactly the same reliable way as a similar 1 speed small geared motor does....the 2 new things are the second set of gears (almost doubling the reduction factor) and the 2way clutch assembly....I think that these could be the critical parts to look at....

Plus, from what I understand, mine, is one among the first 20" 2 speed motors they've sold....and the 20"x4 1/4 tires are more likely 22"+ than 20" :mrgreen:

The second motor I purchased is wounded for a 24" wheel but I will use it on a 700c....

So Both applications are close (or over) the motor's limits....that's what I'm looking for.....to prove if my requirements are too much or not for these motors....

Cheers
Last edited by panurge on Wed Jul 02, 2014 5:08 am, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby d8veh » Wed Jul 02, 2014 3:25 am

endlessly_ending wrote:I intend to buy the Lishui sine controller + KM5S display, but meanwhile I thougt it might be fun to give the s12s sine wave torque controller a try.

Sadly no luck.
At roughly the speed the controller changes to sine, the XiongDa goes loud and slows down immediately.

Programming P5 with the LCD display differntly (85-250) doesn't seem to change anything. The wheel speed isn't displayed anyway.
A Xin Feng / MXUS hub runs fine on the S12S and the XiongDa 2 speed hub runs fine on the combo controller.
But the XiongDa does not seem to like the S12S - or vice versa

Any ideas anybody?


I needed to test a KU65 controller, so I hooked it up to my Xiongda. It turned the motor, but it made it make a knocking sound. It would turn normally for about half a second, then knock, and then repeat. I can't think of any explanation. Normally KU65s are good at sorting out motors.
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby endlessly_ending » Wed Jul 02, 2014 5:11 am

Oh oh !

Thanks fr sharing your findings.
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby endlessly_ending » Wed Jul 02, 2014 5:19 am

endlessly_ending wrote:uhhh, those Xiongda 2-speed hub are big.
No chance to get mine married with a cannondale fatty for example, no matter with or without disk !

The attachment Xiongda_width4.jpg is no longer available



Here is what I use currently.
As I like front motors in suspension forks, I went after a Cannondale Moto FR. Was lucky to still get one.
Another Option would have been the AMP Research, also an "ancient" design, I have in use on an other ebike.


P7020015_2.JPG
(181.97 KiB) Downloaded 24 times



P7020014_2.JPG
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby panurge » Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:52 am

Just to report that Both my controller/dispaly combos (KT+KT and Lishui+KM) work well (just on preliminary bench tests) with both my XD motors. Speed Shifter, Assist level, speed and juice level are quite accurate. The lishui controller works well even if there's some noise variation during the speed curve, the 20" runs with little more noise than than the 24" at every power level....that's maybe due to the higher RPM....
Lacing all the 2 motors right now.... :D
The 137mm wide motor to a 700c SE alexrims with 14g Sapims 3crossed...
The 166mm wide motor to a weinmann DHL80 with 13g ALPINA 2 crossed,
I'm Waiting to find the new DHL101 in 406 size that differs from the DHL100 for the spoke's offset. As yet reported, the 52mm spaced hub flanges are closer than the spokes holes on the DHL100/occ rims while the 101 serie has the holes closer to the center, basically as the 80mm actually are....I'm tempted to try the Schwalbe enegizer solar tires in the 90-80 r16 size....would it fit the 74mm rim's beads of the DHL80?
From my calculations these tires should have a 21.6" outside dia and a 3.5 width, with this kind of rim maybe they settles more on the rim resulting in a lower profile but anyway stupidly fat wheel....than I could report how these supposedly energy saving tires (but not money saving eheh!) shave compared to the stock 20" x 4 1/4" tires.
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby docnjoj » Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:06 am

I'm giving these motors serious consideration for the rear wheel of my trike. Interested how the 20" wheel one werks. Noise level is important.
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby spinningmagnets » Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:55 am

d8veh reported that he tested the motor as soon as it arrived. Pulled it apart to get internal pics and was very disappointed at the factory grease. Not enough and poor quality (waxy).

Cleaned and repacked with quality grease (I recommend automobile synthetic front disc brake wheel bearing grease). Front disc brakes can get very hot...front wheel bearings get freezing in winter and boiling hot when braking on a downhill in the summer, so...this is very good grease and at a low price too.

d8veh made sure to mention the motor ran much quieter after repacked with proper grease.
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby panurge » Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:59 am

spinningmagnets wrote:d8veh reported that he tested the motor as soon as it arrived. Pulled it apart to get internal pics and was very disappointed at the factory grease. Not enough and poor quality (waxy).

Cleaned and repacked with quality grease (I recommend automobile synthetic front disc brake wheel bearing grease). Front disc brakes can get very hot...front wheel bearings get freezing in winter and boiling hot when braking on a downhill in the summer.

d8veh made sure to mention the motor ran much quieter after repacked with proper grease.

YesI know that, thanks for the advice.
Have you guys (spinning/d8veh and others) a specific grease brand/type yet used with these and/or other geared motors to suggest?
XD declared to use UNICAL MOLTH GREASE B52 actually...
Last edited by panurge on Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby docnjoj » Wed Jul 02, 2014 3:28 pm

spinningmagnets wrote:d8veh reported that he tested the motor as soon as it arrived. Pulled it apart to get internal pics and was very disappointed at the factory grease. Not enough and poor quality (waxy).

Cleaned and repacked with quality grease (I recommend automobile synthetic front disc brake wheel bearing grease). Front disc brakes can get very hot...front wheel bearings get freezing in winter and boiling hot when braking on a downhill in the summer.

d8veh made sure to mention the motor ran much quieter after repacked with proper grease.

Thanks S/M I really need to get someone to record the sounds it makes. The shift to high gear should slow it down and make it quieter?
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2x16000 Multisport from HK now gone as they died after 2 years
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby turbo1889 » Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:44 pm

If anyone is looking for what performance level this motor is capable of with the stock controllers I was able to find a 36v dyno-test sheet included in the image galleries of a few of the alibaba listings for this motor such as this listing (scroll down to the bottom)

http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Double-Speed-Motor-Electric-Bike-Conversion_1195155734.html

And I zoomed in on it to see as many of the numbers as I could and then manually entered them into an Excel spread sheet and then graphed the results and then put in a few TLAR (that looks about right) guesstimate numbers for the front half of the motors power curve from dead stall to the top of the power peak that isn't included in the test data which only includes the back half of the motors power curve from the peak of the power curve down the back side to free spinning no load top RPM.

I then added in a few simple linear approximation columns to scale the motors test curve to other voltages then just 36v and added in my standard load and equilibrium calculations.

Anyway, here is an Excel spread sheet which you can use to approximate the motors performance capabilities in both Low and High gear when operated with different batteries and under different conditions. The further you go from the original 36-volt system voltage that the test data is from the more error will creep in and this only applies to a motor with the standard winding configuration that the test data is from:

Calculator for XiongDa 2-Speed Hub Motor.xls
(123.5 KiB) Downloaded 260 times


If anyone finds any more test data for the other winding options like the faster 20" wheel winding please post a link. So far only been able to find that limited data for the standard bigger size wheel 36-volt system test data.

It looks pretty good for a light weight speedy stealth build to me if I were to push the voltage up on this motor in the standard 36v winding in a 26", 700c, or 29er wheel size bike to a 14s Li-Poly or 16s LiFePO4 pack voltage which is probably about as far as you can safely push their 48-volt stock controller.
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Postby panurge » Thu Jul 03, 2014 4:45 am

docnjoj wrote:Thanks S/M I really need to get someone to record the sounds it makes. The shift to high gear should slow it down and make it quieter?
otherDoc

Hey Doc, I will post soon a full report for this 20" fat build, with sound too.... :wink:...just a week to wait....
I'll be glad to share infos on the sphere, as usual.....I got so much of my actual elecrtic knowledge here, that should be the minimum I can do....
Anyway, actually, I found the motor not so different from other similar geared hubs about noise....but 'cause I've some hearing disturbs and I'm biased by the high freq noise of my Astro :mrgreen: I will post to you a video with audio so you can judge yourself :wink:

Also I'm planning to make a small production run of the superlight aluminum 700c tourer frames, and I hope to offer these bikes with the XD, so I'm fully opened to suggestions from all you guys.....

There's also an e-bike rental shop here in Florence center town, that is in love with the small fatbike, they say it is the ideal bike to be rented, when electrified.....It has appeal, low to 0 maintenance in the cycle side, no suspension but good absorption from tires, durable tires, strong wheels and spokes and low cost and is relatively small...They would like to fund a Frame production for a small 10 bikes fleet like the Massif with a slightly longer wheel base....could be interesting...but we can only TIG weld Alu & Ti....
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