2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

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Alan B   100 GW

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by Alan B » May 13 2017 11:02am

Extrapolations from unloaded or calculated motor speeds are very subject to error, but extrapolating measured speeds from one wheelsize to another will be more accurate. We are already seeing 20 mph on level pavement with 20 inch wheels and light motor loading, changing to a 27.5 will undoubtedly be well in excess of 20 mph and will require a type III plate. If you want to ride on trails with a 27.5 you'll have to lower the voltage if you wish to be legal. This motor in a 27.5 wheel should produce 20 mph at 36V. At 52V the 20" wheel will provide better climbing performance than the 27.5 at either 36V or 52V. Hubmotors perform better in small wheels.

If you want trail performance the BBS02 or BBSHD may be a better choice. I view the Xiongda as a good choice for pavement, but at a disadvantage for unpaved situations. Certainly the BBSHD in 27.5 is an excellent choice, which I have done on the RidgeRunner.

The nameplate states 750 watts on the BBS02 motor, the dual geared says Lunacycle 48V 26". I've seen close to 750W already in very limited testing, and that was based on the display readout which updates fairly slowly. I suspect that a fast meter will show 750W or more for brief periods. The controller is rated at 20A so 1000W peaks should be possible at 50V.

These kits are sold at attractive pricing, might as well try one if that's your interest. The real problem is the dropout width if a disc is wanted, finding a bike frame that will handle that width is key.
Last edited by Alan B on May 13 2017 2:52pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: corrected nameplate values

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spinningmagnets   100 GW

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by spinningmagnets » May 13 2017 11:13am

After careful consideration, I agree with everything AlanB said in the above post.

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by leelorr » May 13 2017 11:15am

AlanB,

How would you describe the operation of the PAS system used by this kit?

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by Alan B » May 13 2017 12:13pm

leelorr wrote:AlanB,

How would you describe the operation of the PAS system used by this kit?
Excellent question. I have no answer for this now as the PAS hardware came in the box but have not tried fitting it, nor have I installed the brake cutout which, as we have discussed elsewhere, is advisable for PAS. I plan to try that later, though I am mostly a throttle guy. Trail riding requires PAS, for some silly reason, here in Kalifornia.

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by craiggor » May 13 2017 1:55pm

5 levels of PAS + 0 and low. It has 10 magnets so is fast acting starting and stopping. Almost no need for brake cut off's,I haven't had cut off's fitted for 3121 miles. Throttle does not work on level 0. I would like to add a switch to the PAS to turn it off,because sometimes when in low gear I like to go to no assist this means 6 button presses to get from low to 0.

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by ScooterMan101 » May 13 2017 2:35pm

At $ 350 it would seem so, I do live in California, so real cost is over $ 400, But that is not all when getting a Xiongda Rear Hub, then add in the fact that from what I have read the rear is 145mm wide , so add the cost of a new frame or custom made dropouts like what you see when someone has a modern MTB with rear through axle frame
so then I would be looking at costs , over the price of a Mid-Drive , Over $ 500 if getting custom rear plates made at a good price, $ 600 with hub kit and spokes and rim and tax and shipping on ... up to $ 900 or more if a new frame. And that is not including the cost of the rest of the bike parts. So you see I will have to see real tests with my wheel sizing to even start to consider buying the Kit from Luna.

I am leaning in direction of a Mid-Drive anyway since I already have 3 hub motors, I do not really need another one, I only am interested in the Xiongda because I have Mountains all around me. Presently waiting on some improvements on a few of those.

As far as legal speeds , I am used to riding a Motorcycle rated at 108 HP often on twisty Mountain Roads , in the mid range RPM/Powerband, meaning I do not have to use all the power out of anything in order to have Fun. I am already using different Series Packs for different rides now with my other Hub Motors, Using my 12 s pack for climbing , then unplugging that one and plugging in a 14 s pack for the flatter and descending part of the ride. That is Very easy to do with small lipo packs.

So for anyone reading this , If you get a Xiongda, you can use a larger S pack for getting to the Trails , then switch over to 10s when riding on the trails.


Alan B wrote:
These kits are sold at attractive pricing, might as well try one if that's your interest. The real problem is the dropout width if a disc is wanted, finding a bike frame that will handle that width is key.
My first conversion ...

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by Alan B » May 13 2017 2:50pm

It will be interesting to see how "trail worthy" the Xiongda is in the 20" wheels and low range. I'll be comparing it to the BBS02 which is a high standard, but at least it is a scale we can use.

Perhaps a "PAS off" switch could be added to remove power from the PAS sensor, presumably there's one wire that would do that. Punching all the way from PAS "L" to PAS "0" is a lot of button presses. There may be a 3 speed PAS mode that would drop out 4 and 5, but I haven't seen documentation on that. Seems like I saw fewer PAS modes on one of the videos. The displays often have 3, 5 and 9 speed PAS options.

The mid drive requires more rider input and attention, but in return will give a wider range of speed and torque. Riders that prefer simplicity will like the hubmotor.

I just got an EGO string trimmer, the 56V battery may be good for powering the double gear motor, and it comes with a fast charger and is available at a nearby hardware store complete with extended warranty.

I want to get a second Luna Mighty Mini battery, but no stock is shown at the moment.

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by bigoilbob » May 13 2017 9:49pm

Alan B wrote:Extrapolations from unloaded or calculated motor speeds are very subject to error, but extrapolating measured speeds from one wheelsize to another will be more accurate. We are already seeing 20 mph on level pavement with 20 inch wheels and light motor loading, changing to a 27.5 will undoubtedly be well in excess of 20 mph and will require a type III plate. If you want to ride on trails with a 27.5 you'll have to lower the voltage if you wish to be legal. This motor in a 27.5 wheel should produce 20 mph at 36V. At 52V the 20" wheel will provide better climbing performance than the 27.5 at either 36V or 52V. Hubmotors perform better in small wheels.

If you want trail performance the BBS02 or BBSHD may be a better choice. I view the Xiongda as a good choice for pavement, but at a disadvantage for unpaved situations. Certainly the BBSHD in 27.5 is an excellent choice, which I have done on the RidgeRunner.

The nameplate states 750 watts on the BBS02 motor, the dual geared says Lunacycle 48V 26". I've seen close to 750W already in very limited testing, and that was based on the display readout which updates fairly slowly. I suspect that a fast meter will show 750W or more for brief periods. The controller is rated at 20A so 1000W peaks should be possible at 50V.

These kits are sold at attractive pricing, might as well try one if that's your interest. The real problem is the dropout width if a disc is wanted, finding a bike frame that will handle that width is key.
Why would the XD be a worse choice than a BBSO2 or BBSHS in "unpaved situations". I am NOT disagreeing, and admit ignorance of the BB motors. And past problems with XD lubrication, if still extant, might be a good argument in your favor. But, given the Trumpian HUGE advantage of a 1.81 low range, which results in MORE ~540 watt XD torque than that available from a non geared 750 watt motor, what countervailing advantages do the other motors have?

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by fechter » May 13 2017 10:16pm

bigoilbob wrote:
Why would the XD be a worse choice than a BBSO2 or BBSHS in "unpaved situations". I am NOT disagreeing, and admit ignorance of the BB motors. And past problems with XD lubrication, if still extant, might be a good argument in your favor. But, given the Trumpian HUGE advantage of a 1.81 low range, which results in MORE ~540 watt XD torque than that available from a non geared 750 watt motor, what countervailing advantages do the other motors have?
A BBSxx drive will allow the rear wheel to have less mass and will likely handle better on bumpy surfaces. You can also get the gearing down even lower than the equivalent of the hub motor which is an advantage on very steep inclines.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by Alan B » May 13 2017 10:29pm

The BBS motors are geared mid drives which drive the pedal chainring. So on a typical bike it will have about a 3:1 range of gearing choices which is greater than the 1.8:1 range of the Xiongda.

Plus I believe the BBS02 can handle more power than the Xiongda, beyond the ratings and based on others previous experiments. The BBS02 weighs a few pounds more, which would likely correlate with greater power handling capability. From what I have read people frequently peak over 1000W with a BBS02. I haven't applied power to my BBS02 yet, but I have spent considerable time with the BBSHD.

The BBSHD is an upgraded BBS02 that has even greater power handling capability. I have read of folks putting in well over 1500W with the BBSHD, though the controller might require modification to get there. Even at the stock level with the standard controller, in low gear the BBSHD at full power will, on most bikes, lift the front wheel uncontrollably with the available torque. The double speed doesn't quite do that even in my 20" wheel.

In unpaved situations I frequently find the need to crawl more slowly and need more torque on hand and the greater gear range of the mid drive is useful for that.

So far the steepest test I have made with the Luna double speed is about 15% on pavement. It slowed down but kept grinding along, and pedaling helped it considerably. It was capable but comfortable. The BBS's are in a different class if you have the low gearing to amplify their torque.

It really depends on bike's geometry, the gearing with the mid drive, and the wheel size with the hubmotor.

I think my wife and son will prefer the double torque geared hubmotor. Easy to drive and comfortable. No need to shift and have to worry about dropping power during shifts, being in the correct gear, etc (aside from selecting low for climbing). The BBS will likely be my favorite, with a bit more performance at the expense of having to pay attention to shifting.

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by bigoilbob » May 14 2017 7:07am

Thanks for indulging me, Alan B. My fault for not reading the thread from the start. I'll work on that.....

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by John in CR » May 14 2017 8:43am

Up to 58 pages now on this motor. My one question is, have they changed the design to make it as dependable as any quality geared hubbie? ie Have they given up on the clutch thing to make it a pure Retro/Direct drive and given up the ability to roll backward?

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by bigoilbob » May 14 2017 8:55am

John in CR wrote:Up to 58 pages now on this motor. My one question is, have they changed the design to make it as dependable as any quality geared hubbie? ie Have they given up on the clutch thing to make it a pure Retro/Direct drive and given up the ability to roll backward?

Short answer, not as far as I can see. But IMO, the "design" was always fine. The clutches, in particular, last and last, if they aren't stressed from being pitted against each other. They transmit power for thousands of miles, with no degradation. The problems, as I see them, are hot rodders pushing in too much power, and/or lubrication. Don't know if XD got wise on lubrication, but that's easily remedied.

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by craiggor » May 14 2017 10:31am

John in CR wrote:Up to 58 pages now on this motor. My one question is, have they changed the design to make it as dependable as any quality geared hubbie? ie Have they given up on the clutch thing to make it a pure Retro/Direct drive and given up the ability to roll backward?
Image Material and bearing holder on sun gear changed.

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by spinningmagnets » May 14 2017 10:42am

My one question is, have they changed the design to make it as dependable as any quality geared hubbie? ie Have they given up on the clutch thing to make it a pure Retro/Direct drive and given up the ability to roll backward?
I don't imagine they will ever have the reverse-roll capability, but...every other aspect of its design can easily be upgraded by the factory. If they were upgraded and marketed better, I imagine they would do well, as long as they understand that they must remain with a significantly lower price than the mid drive kits.

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by Alan B » May 14 2017 11:02am

They have been making these drives at least 3 years (the duration of this thread). If the failure rate was high I would expect they would have dropped them long ago. I expect most of the world runs them at 36V so at that level they must last long enough to not flood the factory with failures.

Most of the time the test unit will roll backward just fine, I try not to force it of course, but occasionally I forget.

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by Alan B » May 14 2017 12:11pm

John in CR wrote:Up to 58 pages now on this motor. My one question is, have they changed the design to make it as dependable as any quality geared hubbie? ie Have they given up on the clutch thing to make it a pure Retro/Direct drive and given up the ability to roll backward?
If it was pure retro-direct, it would lock up and attempt to break gears every time it was rolled backwards. They solve it with a fancy part-time clutch rather than a third clutch. Having a hubmotor that won't roll backwards seems like a bad idea, since the force will likely be sufficient to break gears.

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by bigoilbob » May 14 2017 2:19pm

craiggor, had you changed out your lube to PTFE grease and oil prior to your failure*? I ask because I too had gear failure more catastrophic than yours. But I'm pretty sure that it was the white "dry" XD lube that they used at the time. Since getting a new gear, gratis, I have gone a couple thousand miles, with 48 volts, heavily loaded (tandem), and have had NO problems. I've looked inside twice - mainly because I couldn't believe my good fortune - and all was pristine.

As for backing up, I'm like Alan B. I try to avoid it, but do so accidentally from time to time, as there is usually no resistance.

Admittedly just one more data point to consider.....

* Been awhile, but if you search d8veh, I believe it was him who prescribed this easy lube regimen.

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by craiggor » May 14 2017 3:01pm

bigoilbob wrote:craiggor, had you changed out your lube to PTFE grease and oil prior to your failure*? I ask because I too had gear failure more catastrophic than yours. But I'm pretty sure that it was the white "dry" XD lube that they used at the time. Since getting a new gear, gratis, I have gone a couple thousand miles, with 48 volts, heavily loaded (tandem), and have had NO problems. I've looked inside twice - mainly because I couldn't believe my good fortune - and all was pristine.

As for backing up, I'm like Alan B. I try to avoid it, but do so accidentally from time to time, as there is usually no resistance.

Admittedly just one more data point to consider.....

* Been awhile, but if you search d8veh, I believe it was him who prescribed this easy lube regimen.
First failure was with factory grease.I then changed to dry PTFE spray.The second brake was I think caused by the sun gear deforming(why it deformed I don't know,roll back ? I try not to.) And picking up the rubber and metal bearing seal and jaming in the sun gearImage I have filed a slight chamfer on the sun gear so it should not do that again.Using the wet PTFE now.

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by spinningmagnets » May 14 2017 3:44pm

Personally, I don't find a lack of rolling backwards to be an issue, but if that is significant to a potential customer, nothing wrong with that affecting their choice.

Wasn't the "locking up when you want to roll it backwards" only an issue in low gear? If yes, I'd tell the marketing department it's a "feature"

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by Alan B » May 14 2017 11:05pm

Failing to roll backwards wouldn't be much of a problem. I think the problem is breaking the synthetic gears when rolling backwards.

When I roll mine backwards it seems random. Sometimes it rolls, and sometimes it stops. I'm very careful to avoid pushing it when it stops, so I don't know how it would react. I suspect an unladen bike would just slide the tire (or the clutch might unlock and allow the rotation), but if the operator was still on the bike the forces applied to the gears might be enough to cause damage (if the clutch did not unlock).

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by knutselmaaster » May 15 2017 12:34am

If you have an accelerator, just give a very brief acceleration to unlock in that case (or use the walk assist), too short to make the bike advance and preferably in H.
To prevent the lockup phenomenon, always go back to H a bit, just before parking the bike. (Just enough to make it engage)

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by ic3wall » Jun 06 2017 6:58am

Guys, I sent an email for a quote for a kit (motor+controller etc) to this address yona@xiongdamotor.com.cn on Sunday and still no news. To the people who delt with them, what kind of delays should I expect in communications?

Thanks

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by craiggor » Jun 06 2017 7:40am

ic3wall wrote:Guys, I sent an email for a quote for a kit (motor+controller etc) to this address yona@xiongdamotor.com.cn on Sunday and still no news. To the people who delt with them, what kind of delays should I expect in communications?

Thanks
Try Bonnie@xiongdamotor.com.cn. Bonnie replied within a few days when I sent a message to Yona.She said Yona had left.

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by d8veh » Jun 06 2017 8:55am

Yes, Yona left a couple of years ago. Bonnie will sort you out.

To clear up a couple of points. You don't need a custom frame. Most frames can be stretched a bit to accomodate the motor. If I as going to install the motor in an OEM bike, I'd design the frame 145 mm with the correct offset.

There have been some improvements to the reliability during the last couple of years. Both the ring gear and the sun gear have had some attention according to Bonnie.

My motor has now done 4000 miles without any problems, though it's probably in need of a re-grease because it sounds like it did when it was new. It has a sort of resonance, that went away when I greased it last time. The controller has developed a fault recently, so needs replacing. It won't change into low gear anymore. It just ignores the instruction. I tried various ways of resetting it, but no joy. It also stoped showing the power a few days before, and about a year ago, it started wrongly displaying the voltage. It says 64v instead of 54v, though the battery display symbol still shows the segments correctly.

My system is 48v 15A. It has no problem climbing the steepest hills, similar to a BBS02, except it climbs more slowly. It'll maintain decent torque right down to about 3 mph, though I normally keep the speed at about 4 mph on the steepest hills, which keeps the efficiency above 60%.

The jamming of the motor is only when you push it backwards, and not every time. You don't have to do anything to unjam it other than go forwards or use it normally.

The motor isn't suitable for trikes or lowriders, where you need to paddle backwards while sitting on the bike. That's what does the damage when the clutch locks.

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