Raged Focus Black Forest 29er MAC 10T 40A Build log!

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tomjasz   1.21 GW

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Re: MAC 8T or Direct Drive?

Post by tomjasz » Apr 07 2014 8:02pm

neptronix wrote:powerful front motors are trouble.
Got it, thanks.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: MAC 8T or Direct Drive?

Post by Rutiger » Apr 07 2014 8:11pm

Hey mate.

I was in the same mind as you when I was trying to decide which controller to get with my kit from em3ev, but ended up going with the 12 Fet 3077 for a few reasons.

A 4110 based controller allowing a higher voltage is fairly unneccessary because the MAC doesn't deal well with many more volts anyway, it would just make me more likely to break it.
The 3077 is more efficient, as you mentioned.
The 12 Fet 3077 is capable of more amps. I read a post where someone switched between a 30 and 40A controller and felt a noticable difference in accelleration, which tipped me over.
From my own experience now I'm probably going to turn it down to 30A on the CA anyway, just to make the battery and motor last longer anyway.

If it makes any difference to my info, I'm using a battery I put together myself from HK Lipo (first time) to make a 12s 30Ah pack, with an 8T motor, but only in a 26" wheel.

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Re: MAC 8T or Direct Drive?

Post by Raged » Apr 07 2014 9:13pm

Rutiger wrote:Hey mate.

I was in the same mind as you when I was trying to decide which controller to get with my kit from em3ev, but ended up going with the 12 Fet 3077 for a few reasons.

A 4110 based controller allowing a higher voltage is fairly unneccessary because the MAC doesn't deal well with many more volts anyway, it would just make me more likely to break it.
The 3077 is more efficient, as you mentioned.
The 12 Fet 3077 is capable of more amps. I read a post where someone switched between a 30 and 40A controller and felt a noticable difference in accelleration, which tipped me over.
From my own experience now I'm probably going to turn it down to 30A on the CA anyway, just to make the battery and motor last longer anyway.

If it makes any difference to my info, I'm using a battery I put together myself from HK Lipo (first time) to make a 12s 30Ah pack, with an 8T motor, but only in a 26" wheel.
Yeah that makes sense. I would already be hitting peak current for the controller and battery at 28A with just a 5% incline (going by the calculations earlier). Better to have a bit more wiggle room in case I hit a bigger incline. Is it by design that MAC motors dont take more volts? I'd typically prefer more volts and less current, but understand that isnt always possible.

I'm also sorta leaning towards a build your own lipo pack. I'm not unfamiliar with lipo and I'm quite familiar with electronics (I have a B. Eng in Systems... but it's been 12 years since I did proper nitty gritty engineering =( most of my day is documents and planning... ) the costs for batteries with extra shipping from em3ev adds a fair chunk since it tips past the $1k import tax threshold and I get slugged an extra $100 or so.
Focus Black Forest 29er - MAC10T 14S Lipo - 50km/h, 50km range. (dead)http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 91&start=0
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Re: MAC 8T or Direct Drive?

Post by deffx » Apr 07 2014 11:00pm

Raged wrote:

I'm also sorta leaning towards a build your own lipo pack. I'm not unfamiliar with lipo and I'm quite familiar with electronics (I have a B. Eng in Systems... but it's been 12 years since I did proper nitty gritty engineering =( most of my day is documents and planning... ) the costs for batteries with extra shipping from em3ev adds a fair chunk since it tips past the $1k import tax threshold and I get slugged an extra $100 or so.
For a reliable commuter, set and forget rechargable battery, i would be going with one of cellmans packs

RC lipo is a pain in the arse to charge, monitor, build into packs, spaggetti wiring, poor qc (hobbyking) and lets not forget the fire hazzard

In fact im just waiting for the day i burn my bike and whatever is around it down :-)

I have to tell family and friends, no i cant bring my bike inside your houses its a timebomb

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Re: MAC 8T or Direct Drive?

Post by Raged » Apr 12 2014 6:40pm

Just an update that I'm bought the MAC 10T kit from em3ev

Product Model Price Quantity Total
EB3 Program Cable EB3PRGM $10.00 1 $10.00
14S 40A Li Ion BMS 14S40LIBMS $50.00 1 $50.00
Upgrade EM3ev vers. Mac , 500/1000W Pick'n'Mix Kit
- Controller Type: 12 Fet 40A (36-52V, IRFB3077)
- Motor Speed: 255rpm loaded @36V 10T Upgrade
- Front/Rear Motor: Rear
- Wheel Type: 700C Alex DM24 Disc
- Throttle Type: Thumb Throttle
- Ebrakes: Yes UPMACPNMKIT $412.00 1 $412.00
Aluminium Case Charger 58.8V 5A,14S Li Ion/NCM (with Switch)
- AC Plug Type: Australia 14SLI5ACHARGE $60.00 1 $60.00


As you can see, I bought the BMS and Charger from there as well as the motor kit, as I will be building my own battery pack for my own specific circumstance. Most likely using 4-6 of the zippy 7s packs. Depending on what I can fit in the frame.

Thanks for all the help guys, It's been great to have information and support to help me make the right decisions =)
Focus Black Forest 29er - MAC10T 14S Lipo - 50km/h, 50km range. (dead)http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 91&start=0
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Re: MAC 8T or Direct Drive?

Post by Raged » Apr 28 2014 5:36am

Just an update on where I'm at... Ordered the parts from em3ev, but they had some issues with some stock, so it was only shipped yesterday. Shit happens and Paul has been pretty awesome about it so I'm still pretty happy =)

Image

But on that note... The order I put in at hobby king last week has already arrived. Set up my man cave ready to wire shit up :

Image

I ordered 4 x zippy compact 7S 5800mAH 25C packs. This is to make a 14S2P pack with 11600mAh pack... Theyre pretty small and will be pretty easy to fit inside a frame. Also picked up an extra 4 x 14S BMS adaptors (just in case) and a whole bunch of other spares, including a temp controlled soldering iron and a handful of 4S and 3S paralell adaptors.

Double checking the Zippy Compact 7S battery as it comes with a 3S and 4S plug, It seems that the 3S connector is the "main" one and the 4S is the 2nd part. This is done by checking voltages across the terminals :

Image

Stupid me didnt order shrink wrap and it's 8:30 pm... so I've got a ton of stuff and an itch to get it ready, but missing a few "important" parts (insulation).

To top it off, I'm on holidays in Thailand for the next 2 weeks, so no time (or updates) until after the 20th of May... It's a tough life =)

I'll try to update this as I go to help other newbs like me (I've done a metric ton of research since I started this thread though)
Last edited by Raged on Jul 29 2014 10:33pm, edited 1 time in total.
Focus Black Forest 29er - MAC10T 14S Lipo - 50km/h, 50km range. (dead)http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 91&start=0
Cube Reaction 29er Cyclocross BBS02 http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=70549

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Re: MAC 8T or Direct Drive?

Post by Raged » Apr 28 2014 7:15am

This is info in case anyone else buys a Zippy Compact 7S pack and wants to make a 14S pack for the MAC motors.

As you can see, I've got it in series and laid out how you need to wire up your 14S connector to your BMS.

Image
Focus Black Forest 29er - MAC10T 14S Lipo - 50km/h, 50km range. (dead)http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 91&start=0
Cube Reaction 29er Cyclocross BBS02 http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=70549

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Re: MAC 8T or Direct Drive?

Post by Raged » May 01 2014 4:47am

Had a spare 2 hours and put together the 14S balance adaptor for the 7S Zippy Compact (which have separate 3S+4S plugs). Everything worked first time!

With the Hobby King Soldering iron, what temperature are you supposed to use to solder stuff together? I left it at 375degC which seemed to be ok, but unsure if it's too hot that it might damage the wire?

Image
Focus Black Forest 29er - MAC10T 14S Lipo - 50km/h, 50km range. (dead)http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 91&start=0
Cube Reaction 29er Cyclocross BBS02 http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=70549

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Re: MAC 8T or Direct Drive?

Post by Rutiger » May 01 2014 5:47am

Coming along nicely there.

You may want to label the JST-XH plugs in your 14s balance adapter, just in case the wrong order will cause smoke to appear.

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Re: MAC 8T or Direct Drive?

Post by wesnewell » May 01 2014 11:52am

I'd go with a rear DD kit. And if I lived in AU, I'd buy it from an AU dealer to avoid international problems.
http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/Sporting-Goo ... _PrefLoc=1
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Mongoose 26" Ledge 2.1 mtb bike $99, yescomusa.com 48V 1000W rear hub kit $200, Hua Tong 72V 40A controller $35, 10ah 24s lipo $217=~43mph, range=45 miles @ 20mph. 25K miles and still going strong.
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Re: MAC 8T or Direct Drive?

Post by Raged » May 02 2014 7:19am

The 14S adaptor is color coded red and black on the sides, so I know which way it goes =)
wesnewell wrote:I'd go with a rear DD kit. And if I lived in AU, I'd buy it from an AU dealer to avoid international problems.
http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/Sporting-Goo ... _PrefLoc=1
No one sells a 29er or 700c kit locally. I had to order from EM3ev to get what I wanted. Additionally, from what I have researched, a DD won't give the torque I want with out going high power... Which has added problems and costs.

If you can find me someone who sells a 700c mac 10T rear hub, locally (Melbourne Australia). I might build another machine (swapping battery packs between).
Focus Black Forest 29er - MAC10T 14S Lipo - 50km/h, 50km range. (dead)http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 91&start=0
Cube Reaction 29er Cyclocross BBS02 http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=70549

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Re: MAC 8T or Direct Drive?

Post by Raged » May 20 2014 9:31pm

Just an update and some more questions...

The kit arrived from EM3EV about 2 weeks ago, but only got home this week...

Image

The unit came with some white grease... I put some on the blue gears, but it doesn't seem enough. What type of grease is it so I can get some more and lather it in a bit?

Image

I see a lot of people use grey epoxy to bed the internal cables down... Do I also need to do this to reduce the possibility of rubbing?

Image

First thing on my list is to complete the battery pack... instructions are pretty straight forward from em3ev

Image

Its slow progress, but getting there =)
Focus Black Forest 29er - MAC10T 14S Lipo - 50km/h, 50km range. (dead)http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 91&start=0
Cube Reaction 29er Cyclocross BBS02 http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=70549

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Re: MAC 8T or Direct Drive?

Post by Raged » May 27 2014 5:25am

Progress update... I GOT IT RUNNING ON THE TEST BENCH!!

First testing I just had it propped up and the throttle did not do anything... turns out one of the brake levers was jammed (ebrake?), so when that was adjusted I pressed on the throttle again... frocking wheel just went off pulling and twisting the chain of wires with it down the garage... I was both happy AND sad! So after I untangled the wires i took it slowly and things seem sweet so far. =)

The battery pack fully wired up is just under 4kg with the BMS and wires. it fits in a 35cm x 10cm x 6cm space. Not too big.

Again, it's a small pack of 14S2P (58V 11600mAh). I was able to charge it without anything blowing up, so I must have done it right =)

Image

Question 1 : With the em3ev kit, there seems to be a spare white wire that doesn't connect anywhere... Anyone else had this ?

Image

I used anderson 45 power pole plugs (borrowed my neighbours crimper) for the anti spark (supplied with the em3ev kit) as well as charger connections. I have 5.5mm bullets for everything else.

Question 2 : Do I need to disconnect the controller to charge the battery? If I do, then I'll swap over to some Anderson 75 Power Poles for easier disconnections.

I've got the motor and electrics set up but still don't have a suitable donor bike =( Anyone know of a 29er with disc brakes which has suitable dropouts for under AUD $ 600? I've been looking at the Norco Storm 9.1 (at $715) because drops are large and flat but frame clearance is low... or just going single speed for zero maintenance commuter with a Vitus Dee 29 ($630ish).


Thanks in advance!
Focus Black Forest 29er - MAC10T 14S Lipo - 50km/h, 50km range. (dead)http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 91&start=0
Cube Reaction 29er Cyclocross BBS02 http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=70549

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Re: MAC 8T or Direct Drive?

Post by teklektik » May 27 2014 5:57am

Raged wrote:Question 1 : With the em3ev kit, there seems to be a spare white wire that doesn't connect anywhere... Anyone else had this ?
This is the signal wire from an LM35 temp sensor. Measure the voltage from the white wire to controller ground (hall Gnd - black wire - is best but throttle, ebrake, or controller (-) will do). Temp in degC is read directly as voltage - just move the decimal point. If you have a CA V3 this temp can be displayed and configured to automatically roll back power to prevent motor overheating.
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Re: Raged 29er MAC 10T 40A Build log! (with pics)

Post by Raged » Jun 11 2014 10:52am

Just to give everyone an update... My bike came in. A Focus Black Forrest 7.0 and I managed to make everything connect up properly. No one told me until after I had everything in place that I needed a 2.5mm brake disc spacer to actually make the rotor fit.... but anyways...

I spent 2 days mounting shit up into a box on a rear rack and managed 2 good rides out of it... 28km round trip from 58V charge and still had 53V in the pack (measured as soon as I got to garage). Decided to take it on the first trip to work... And I got doored by a kid getting out of the car. Zero warning and not parked at all... the car was waiting at a red light and I got doored on the passenger side between another parked car. No where to go =( Flipped over the bike and door and landed on the other side. Thankfully I was going slow had a backpack full of clothes to absorb the fall but still got a few bumps....

I'm off to Europe this week, so no e-bke updates until I get back. I'll post some snaps I took during build and you can see my failed version 1 box before I went to metal tool box =)

Bike all new :
Image


Mac motor disc mount doesn't line up. you need a 2.5mm spacer to make it work... I used 3 machine washers for each bolt to get by...

Image

Version1 mount ($4.50 plastic box) was a MEGA FAIL :
Image

I strapped it own but bumpy road pretty much ripped the bottom of it out and the box fell to pieces. =(
Image

So I went to Bunnings and spent $9.50 on a metal tool box...
Image

This box was good until I got doored... Box is battered now =(... so I'm designing the in-frame version 3... I currently have 11600mAh of 14S Zippy Compact LiPo battery. With the new design In frame I can get another 14S 5800mAh in there, so after my holiday I'll get back to fabricating some parts. The gap between the pedals on the Focus Black Forest is 150mm. I only need 140mm of clearance to fit 4xLipo Batteries (taped up with some cardboard between them) which measures 100mm x 120mm x 170mm (space for wires up top).

Image
Focus Black Forest 29er - MAC10T 14S Lipo - 50km/h, 50km range. (dead)http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 91&start=0
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Re: Raged Focus Black Forest 29er MAC 10T 40A Build log!

Post by Rutiger » Jun 11 2014 3:20pm

Sucks to hear about the accident, I hope the battery box is the only damage to the bike and kit, and that you heal quickly.
You must have been going quick to flip right over the door.

If you're going to do dangerous stuff on the bike like lane splitting (that isn't legal) you need to be extremely careful. Something you learn fairly quickly from riding a motorbike around on the road is that you have to assume everyone is trying to kill you.

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Re: Raged Focus Black Forest 29er MAC 10T 40A Build log!

Post by Raged » Jun 11 2014 6:45pm

No lane splitting or anything... All cars were stopped at the lights (about 10-15 cars deep) and I was on the left cruising in the bike lane. Passenger in a stopped car (in traffic lane) just opened the door to get out and collected me while I was in bike lane. 100% avoidable if the driver took the 5 seconds to pull over or looked at my flashing 800lumen light approaching. Shit happens, and I'm ok. It's one of those things where it's not "if" it's going to happen but "when".
Focus Black Forest 29er - MAC10T 14S Lipo - 50km/h, 50km range. (dead)http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 91&start=0
Cube Reaction 29er Cyclocross BBS02 http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=70549

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Re: Raged Focus Black Forest 29er MAC 10T 40A Build log!

Post by Rutiger » Jun 11 2014 7:08pm

Fair enough.

If you were in the bike lane, I would have taken their details and spoken to police about the incident.

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Re: Raged Focus Black Forest 29er MAC 10T 40A Build log!

Post by Raged » Jun 11 2014 7:18pm

Thinking back, I should have done that... But at the time I was in shock just lying on the ground holding my hip. I collected the stem or door as I flew over and have a massive bruise there now. I have the guys number and I'm getting the bike checked out at the LBS today and just gonna send the guy the bill. If he doesn't pay, I'll ask the police to give him a buzz.

I'll know for the second time (hopefully no second time).
Focus Black Forest 29er - MAC10T 14S Lipo - 50km/h, 50km range. (dead)http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 91&start=0
Cube Reaction 29er Cyclocross BBS02 http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=70549

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Re: Raged Focus Black Forest 29er MAC 10T 40A Build log!

Post by Rutiger » Jun 11 2014 7:22pm

Good luck with it all!

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Re: Raged Focus Black Forest 29er MAC 10T 40A Build log!

Post by PRW » Jun 11 2014 7:25pm

Raged wrote:No lane splitting or anything... All cars were stopped at the lights (about 10-15 cars deep) and I was on the left cruising in the bike lane. Passenger in a stopped car (in traffic lane) just opened the door to get out and collected me while I was in bike lane. 100% avoidable if the driver took the 5 seconds to pull over or looked at my flashing 800lumen light approaching. Shit happens, and I'm ok. It's one of those things where it's not "if" it's going to happen but "when".
this almost happened to me this morning - luckily I was slowing for a red light, a passenger in a car about 3 back from the front got out without looking, then bent over as she had dropped some money - all without looking. I waited until she stood up, then said "Oi!" as loudly as I could - she went "oh! and fell back onto the car door - hopefully she remembers to look next time...

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Re: Raged Focus Black Forest 29er MAC 10T 40A Build log!

Post by Samd » Jun 11 2014 7:29pm

Ouch! Nice build fella.

What did you do for torque arms?
http://ballaratebikes.com/

ImageImageImage
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Re: Raged Focus Black Forest 29er MAC 10T 40A Build log!

Post by Raged » Jun 11 2014 7:45pm

Samd wrote:Ouch! Nice build fella.

What did you do for torque arms?
No torque arms yet as I was gonna head over to Joe Zolin's place (run's Frankencycle in Caulfield) to see what he had in stock that would work the best. There isnt that much thread left on the ends after the bolt and washers are in place, so need to go see and test fit at the shop before I buy anything.

I gotta say that the Focus frame is tough as nails. It's not a steel frame, but it's god dammn solid and the bike (in original form) is light. Easily lift and carry upstairs if you had to. With the red box, motor etc installed, I could still lift the bike up to hang on the bike rack at work.
Focus Black Forest 29er - MAC10T 14S Lipo - 50km/h, 50km range. (dead)http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 91&start=0
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Re: Raged Focus Black Forest 29er MAC 10T 40A Build log!

Post by jateureka » Jun 11 2014 8:23pm

Raged wrote:No lane splitting or anything... All cars were stopped at the lights (about 10-15 cars deep) and I was on the left cruising in the bike lane. Passenger in a stopped car (in traffic lane) just opened the door to get out and collected me while I was in bike lane. 100% avoidable if the driver took the 5 seconds to pull over or looked at my flashing 800lumen light approaching. Shit happens, and I'm ok. It's one of those things where it's not "if" it's going to happen but "when".
I would seriously report that dooring incident to the police, it is an offence (rule 269 (3)) and the fine is around $352.

There was another post recently about a man that died as the result of a dooring and someone had a youtube video of a woman that was doored. That was published in the latest edition of Ride On magazine on page 40. Well worth the read to know your rights. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=60490

Hope you are well on the way to recovery.
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Re: Raged Focus Black Forest 29er MAC 10T 40A Build log!

Post by Samd » Jun 11 2014 8:42pm

Raged wrote: No torque arms yet as I was gonna head over to Joe Zolin's place (run's Frankencycle in Caulfield)
I would get that done fast. The frame is probably 7005 AL from what you describe. If so it's hard but brittle. Joe is a good operator and a good mate.

I also have some flat 7mm laser cut torque plates if you need a few posted over. Might need some grinding to suit but gives you a lot of meat to work with. A geared hub generates a lot of snatching torque from standstill. Be careful.
http://ballaratebikes.com/

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