About my Animal and me, advice appreciated

Hello everybody,

Let me introduce myself, as i'm new here.
I'm from Holland but currently living in France, near Paris, since 2004.
Like all Dutch, I love riding bikes.
Besides the "normal" usage of the bike (going somewhere), I've been biking just for the fun of it since i was a little kid.
BMX in the Dunes and on the beach, playing soccer with the bike, and later on long distance (100/200km) on racing bike untill the MTB was developed.
MTB ever since, quite fanatic when I was younger and just for fun later on.
My style of riding is less devastating than it was before, but I have always loved using all kinds of obstacles for jumping (I love big 10m+ drops, but i won't do it anymore) and balanced riding, riding down stairways, etc.
When i just arrived in France, 10 years ago, i used to bike to work, about 25km from suburbs to the foot of the eiffel tower where i worked back then.
If you know your way around, there are great possibilities for biking in and around Paris.
But ever since, i just cannot find the time to bike a lot, other occupations consuming all my time.
So my physical performance on a bike ain't what it used to be.
Still, i can easily do a 45km "easy" road trip with an average of 20km/h
I would love to go to work on my bike, but it is quite far (about 35km)
When i tried the ebike my mother bought (euro restricted 25km/h max) i was in love with the possibility of such a system, but found it too slow for me.
Then i found out about the (endless) possibilities of bikes equipped with more powerful systems and soon after that, the existence of kits.
This means that i can transform my own bike!
This made me so happy, and i will introduce "the Animal" so that you can understand why and agree, i'm sure:

The Animal is the fruit of 2 years of saving, searching everywhere, dreaming and handwork.
I build it piece by piece, each time i chose the best quality at the lowest weight, to have a full suspension "Freeride" MTB (a therm that was new back in 2001) that could handle all i threw at it, without being too heavy to be used for simple cross country riding and daily commuting.
K2 Animal Frame (noleen shock) Marzocchi freeride fork (120mm f/r travel), Kooka Cranck, Shimano 16 spoke wheels, XT front and Ultegra rear derailleur, xt shifters with flight deck, avid disk (cable because oil was not reliable enough back then and impossible to repair in the field) Coda, Rond, everything is exotic
Weight of the bike: 14kg
Weight of the rider: 65kg




Now about my plan, and here is where i would love your input:

I want a bike that will reach about 40km/h when i pedal with the same force as it costs me now to go 20km/h, i want to pedal i don't need a moped.
Of course it will need to have some more power as i have off days too once in a while, but still have to arrive on time....
As i'm in Europe, and in a dense populated area, i need it to be the least noticeable as it can get, luckily my frame hides the hub a bit.
Main goal of the build will be get to work and back again, about 35km on mostly flat asphalt, 10% country side, 80% long straight bike path without any (!) need to slow down, and 10% in Paris.
Still, i would love to be able to use the bike for singletrack MTB stuff with short but steep climbs (where the motor might be used but preferably just to give that little boost needed to remain in a steady rhythm in particular hard moments, a little push in the back so to say.
It should be jump, water and dust proof, lightweight and reliable.

After a lot of reading on all kinds of fora and websites i have some ideas about what i need:

build Ideas said:

-A geared hub motor, i doubt between
Q100(h), 8fun (Vicky3), and the all new xiongda 2-speed that seems the best option but there is no feedback yet about it's reliability.
-A good Rim and spokes (really cannot accept the idea of having a cheap noname rim in there)
-Basic electronics:
Controller,pedal and brake sensors, thumb throttle and operation unit, i doubt that those in kits are good enough so maybe all bought separately?
-Battery:
Would love to be able to use one of them 46v bottle batteries as there are threaded holes under the frame, that would be a great place balance wise but i think that might be too small for my commute distance so it will be a backpack i suppose. I find it hard to decide what system is best for me. I don't want any risk of fire but don't mind having to build things.

Click to expand...

In the second post i will keep a list of the pieces I plan buying, it will evolve with the feedback you all give and the findings i do over time.

Post reserved for "actual state of the plan"

The commute part is easy. Just about any decent mid size rear hubmotor, dd or geared, and about 1000w. Generally that's 48v, and 20-30 amps of controller.

Hiding the battery to run 40kph for 25k gets tricky, but there is the backpack option. In general, the moderately large battery does look like something, but maybe not immediately recognizable as Ebike.

One problem you have, is carrying the battery on an old fashioned Y frame. Putting more than 5kg on a rear rack really degrades the handling. You can carry a shorter range battery on a rear rack, and carry more on the handlebars. I do that myself, for about 18 km range. I do that on my off road bike, about 2kg on the rear, 2kg on the bars. Not ideal, but my bike is also an old Y frame.

Making the bike work just as well on dirt or street gets trickier, I highly recommend you build a second e bike for off road, using your animal frame. The commuter can be a much cheaper bike, at least for the frame, and have an open triangle frame to locate the battery in the ideal place, in the front triangle. You can get a fairly cheap steel frame, likely a hardtail, for the commute. Later on upgrade some of the components, like the crank. Shifters won't matter much, you can leave it in one gear street riding.

Or, you might want to go with a cargo bike for the commute. Once I built my cargo bike, I rarely wanted to ride anything else. So nice to carry anything on the road bike.

Thank you for your quick reaction.
Is it not possible to use the screw holes on the down tube near the bottom bracket for a battery pack?
They seem very solid...
And that is why i like the idea of the two speed engine, i was not able to find the right balance as low speed and high speed won't really go together with a single setup and the two speed seems to solve that.

It's just that the size and weight of 48v 15 ah, enough to go the distance you want is not going to fit there well. You could carry some of the battery there. You'll be reading for months just on battery placement alone.

Here is a pic of how I carried a similar size battery on a y frame. This was strictly for dirt. Awkward to say the least, very hard to pedal, but on this bike I rarely pedaled at all.

Here is what I ride in dirt now, but the range is not enough for your needs. After an illness, I can't ride as long anymore, so I took off 1/3 of the battery. Edit, I pulled up the wrong picture. This one does not show the bag in front for 48v 5 ah of battery.

Ideally, a commuter will have a frame triangle. This will allow carrying the battery in a frame bag. EM3ev sells a really nice one, that I use to carry part of the battery on my longtail. This is my longtail.

Welcome to the forum. Your plan is certianly within reason. A MAC 500w motor combined with a 48v 15A battery will get the speed and range you need. combine them with a Cycle Analyst 3 and a THUN crank sensor would turn it into a pedelec, however I recomend just using the throttle to add power, as it can be more intuitive and offers a wider range of power choices.

The Andana Cute Q100 isn't an option for the speeds and power you want. It's a fine motor, but far too tiny for your needs. the other two motors are small and aren't suitable for offroad. 2 speed sounds nice, but isn't needed with a 500w MAC

Your Animal looks like a great bike, however battery placement is a problem. the 2 bolts aren't strong enough to hold a large battery, especialy off road, and a battery that size would be hit by the tire as your chock compressed over bumps. that would cause the tire to lock and the bike to possably flip. It is usualy less fun to face plant on a rock at 40kph than.. well, most anything.
There is also the problem of no bottle batteries made that can meet your needs.

As dogman pointed out, a rear rack would make the bike unstable. it's done often, but those who ride often have learned to avoid it. a handlebar mounted battery is a better option, as is a backpack.

However, I would recomend building a dedicated Ebike. something where you can mount the battery in the frame. Keep your current bike for days when you want a light weight unpowered ride, and have a second bike built to be an ebike without compromises.

I find the bike suitable to build. If you think of keeping its light weight handling and pedal-ability though, you need to use a small motor and minimal battery capacity. Looking forward to see what will come out of it.

Dogman, thank you for the pic, it helps me a lot imagining things

Drunkskunk, I'm kinda surprised by your engine advice.
In the reviews and articles I read and youtube movies I saw, the cute and 8fun motors are praised for their ability to be used in MTB.
The ability to bike freely without being slowed down by the engine when its off I really like.
The Mac i thought to be more powerful and able to do what I want without pedaling.
I really like pedaling (hard even)

Using a smaller engine also means the need of a smaller battery I assume...

I love my bike so much that carrying on my back seems a small sacrifice to make to be able to keep riding that one and only, my precioussssss

Keep your hands off preciousss and build a ebike from a used mtb with a space in the triangle comoly frame.
Keep precioussss. Don't muck it up.

Why using a worthless "incapable" basis bike will be better than a bike that is made to fit my morphology and driving style?
A not so good basis without character can never turn into a fun bike to ride after conversion?
The result I want is a bike I can ride all day without having sore bodyparts , that is fun to ride.
Yes I will use it for commuting a lot but I really not like the idea of having a different, motorised vehicle that I only use for commuting.
And if I have to invest in another bike, it will cut on my budget for the electronics.

Please give me some more arguments on this matter

knutselmaaster said:

When i tried the ebike my mother bought (euro restricted 25km/h max) i was in love with the possibility of such a system, but found it too slow for me.
Then i found out about the (endless) possibilities of bikes equipped with more powerful systems and soon after that, the existence of kits.

Click to expand...

knutselmaaster said:

Drunkskunk, I'm kinda surprised by your engine advice.
In the reviews and articles I read and youtube movies I saw, the cute and 8fun motors are praised for their ability to be used in MTB.

Click to expand...

The Q100 is a "Cute" motor, but you wanted something non slow. The q100 is a tiny little motor that isn't going meet those needs. Also, it's not built rugad enough for off road riding. The only youtube I could find of a q100 ebike being rode off pavement was in russian and on an unpaved forest road.

the Bafang 8fun could do it, but the little 350 watt wouldn't be much of an improvement over the EU compliant motor, and could bvery easily be overheated or damaged. a 500 watt bafang 8Fun could do the job. The MAC is just a much better motor.

you will only use more power with a larger motor if you choose to. they aren't like a petrol engine. biger doesn't mean less efficent. It means they are stronger, more robust, and more capable. They only use more power if you chose to twist the throttle harder and put more power into them.
Granted, when you have more power, it's hard not to use it

True, it is my profession and I was too stupid to think for myself, a watt on the wheel is a watt on the wheel, no matter the size of the engine, and the efficiency of the motor is what makes the difference in power needed. (Of course an engine twice as heavy will be harder to start but on the total weight this is not very important)

After seeing the quote and your reaction to it I realise that I was maybe to brief on my moms bike.
When I say I want more speed, it is because the bike is brutally capped at 25km/h.
It has enough power, even at 24,5km/h it gives me more than enough assistance (on the high setting) but it just stops working at 25km/h.
If this restriction wasn't there I'm sure it has enough power to be enough of a support until about 30 km/h as at 25 it is largely sufficient for me.
I'm not sure (will ask info) about the power it has but I assume it is 250w.
So, my newbie thought was, if I had the same power, non capped, on a more sport oriented bike (moms has a too small Dutch lady bike where you sit very up straight) it would almost be enough for what I want.
In my theory, passing from 250w to 350w, in combination with a better bike and personally picked and optimised parts (on semi-slicks), would be able to crate a bike that gives me a little push to help my legs reach 35-40km/h.
That speed I want to reach on the 80% part of my commute, straight, flat and fairly protected from wind, I don't need to reach that speed in Paris, where 25km/h is already a nice speed while having to navigate through dense traffic. I might even turn it off when in town to save battery as I have enough power myself for that.

I'm afraid of all the weight on my hub, 2kg more should already affect the bike a lot, if I remember well a Mac is 5kg.
I'm afraid of taking the bike out of the bike and having some kind of electric vehicle instead.
I would love to keep the characteristics of the result as close as possible to the bike I rode for more than 10000 km.

It should be jump, water and dust proof, lightweight and reliable.

Click to expand...

Definitely don't want to be jumping with a mac. The gears put up with some rough housing but not straight up abuse.

VTT electrique Freeride by OZO: http://youtu.be/fth9v39m7t4

kit freeride BPM: http://youtu.be/KOXIrLg_z5g

I think that is a bafang @400w.
This is not a good idea to do with it?

knutselmaaster said:

VTT electrique Freeride by OZO: http://youtu.be/fth9v39m7t4

kit freeride BPM: http://youtu.be/KOXIrLg_z5g

I think that is a bafang @400w.
This is not a good idea to do with it?

Click to expand...

Prooves my point. The first motor, the "freeride" I don't recognise, but it's the size of a 500 watt geared motor.
The second is a BPM. MAC started as a clone of the BPM, but they improved the clutches, and increased the thickness of the geares and windings by 20% to make them stronger and more robust. Parts are interchangable between the two still.

The Q100 Cute is tiny. Its the smallest, and one of the least powerfull motors made. If you want to build a light weight on road bike and were happy with almost the power of your mom's 250 watt motor, then a Cute motor would be a choice. If you want to ride off road like those videos, you need a motor like they are using, one of the 500 watts jobs with the gears and parts that can survive.

I definately get your point drunkskunk, but what do you think about the jumps, as vptech seems quite convinced?

vptech said:

Definitely don't want to be jumping with a mac. The gears put up with some rough housing but not straight up abuse.

Click to expand...

I will do some more research on the mac, as I only have had a brief look at it, judging it too big for my needs before looking further.

I can't see your pics of the bike ?

http://www.intenseclan.com/_Private/DSC_0141.jpg

OK, i've been reading about the mac.
It seems a very powerful and robust motor (especially the upgrade version), but twice as expensive for the motor and I imagine the controller for it will be more expensive than a "cuteable" model, and I wonder if it will let me keep my rear brake caliper, as it is really sticking a lot to the inside (I'll include a picture)
So there is a big cost difference, not to speak about the 4.3 kg of hub (non suspended) weight.




Offtopic
(And yes the wheels actually are strong. The bearings wear but I never had a single problem. Readjusted the tension after a while when they were new, and never touched since. They survived 5m drop off jumps, stairways, crashes and never moved a single bit.) /offtopic

For the dual suspension frame battery mount, one of the ideas I had been playing around with is mounting it to a standard bike rack crossbar designed for transporting dual suspension bikes on car carriers. I thought here would be a good place to throw this out there:



These are incredibly strong and connect via the seat post and a cotter pin to the headset. I'd custom build a battery pack around a piece of PVC tubing that could slide onto the bike rack crossbar for easy removal. Springs could be added to the headset and seat post to further elevate the bar and provide some extra protection for the batteries.

As for the motor, one thing many overlook about the dd motors is that they will essentially freewheel if you provide them even a tiny bit of throttle to overcome the resistance. I'm wondering if a cruise control setting with very low throttle could provide a dd hub freewheeling capacity without noticeable power assist. I agree with the others that a geared hub wouldn't tolerate the punishment of jumps etc.

That is quite a good idea.
Although it will be hard to do that in a stealthy way...
If a non geared hub engine can run "friction free" than I must look into that too, but the disadvantage of the method you discribe , is that the bike will always need a battery, even when not using the motor.

I recommend looking at Falco E-motors. There is some controversy regarding their "marketing spec" claims at the moment. But they appear to have the lowest rolling resistance at least from 0 speed and by far carry the best warranty. The price is high but I believe the warranty justifies it a bit as well as a very high quality product. I will be ordering a kit from them at the end of this month. It will be compared to the Mac which I use exclusively at the moment and have no complaints about as I know and operate it in its limits, mostly..lol :lol:

It's not sinking in really is it?

Yes, make a great ebike from your beloved animal. Yes, a freeride bike. Perhaps a hubmotor, perhaps a bottom bracket drive. Make it light and nimble and fun, rather than able to go 25k.

But NOOOOOO, don't ruin it by making it your commuter. Unless you just bought an even better bike for the freeride.

Make some other bike carry that large heavy battery for commuting. One with a large frame triangle for that. Or at the least, carry a small battery for freeride, and put a second one in someplace else to do the commute.

Now you have to decide what's more important, freeride or commute. Happily, the bike and motor for commuting can be cheap, and the same battery you freeride with can be part of your commute pack.

Would like to see how he laces a frock motor your all suggesting to those high end wheels he's running...

Bottom bracket drive, gng or cyclone imo back pack of Lipo..done

KiM

P.s welcome to ES

Yes if you use a packback for the battery and you could use that bike.
I still do a first bulid on a old colmoly mtb, there a 80-100usd. Daimondback, treck ect. Then you could transfur it later and back of working bike.