How far can you mod a 28mm (9C Clone) DD HUb?

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teslanv   100 MW

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How far can you mod a 28mm (9C Clone) DD HUb?

Post by teslanv » Apr 10 2014 10:09pm

Starting with a 48V 1000W Yescomusa Direct Drive Hub Kit.

I am curious to know how far anyone has upgraded or modified this drive (or similar inexpensive DD Hub) and what your results were.

I am considering the following:

* Upgrading the Phase Wires to 12ga (or maybe 10ga if I can sqeeze them through the bearing) for added current capability.
* Add a temperature sensor
* Seal the Drive with Permatex Automatic Transmission RTV Silicone and Fill the drive with ATF for cooling solution.
* Find a suitable Controller for higher voltage and current and see how far I can push this drive.
* Stock up on some HK LiPo, once the hardcase packs are back in stock.

I am hoping for 4000W or more and 45 MPH or more. So probably get there with 24S (100V) and 40 Amps...

Will a 12FET 4110 Controller be sufficient, or do I need to step it up to 18FET-4115? - Or perhaps a shunt & trace mod will be necessary...

Any flaws in my plan? Are my above mods capcable of greater power? 6KW? 10KW?
Last edited by teslanv on May 04 2014 10:27am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: How far can you mod a Yescomusa DD HUb?

Post by wesnewell » Apr 11 2014 12:35am

I thought about upgrading the phase wires a long time ago, then decided not to go into the motor and just do it on the outside from the motor to controller. But I haven't even done that yet. Something I might do when I put a new rear tire on in the coming weeks. I've had the new 10awg phase wires made for over a year. I'm also going to thread the left side axle a little more so I can get the jam nut I use on the inside in more so I don't have to spread the dropouts to get the wheel on. The problem is I ride it almost every day and well I would just rather ride than work on it. I think you could get 12awg through it with the hall wires, but I think 10awg would be too big. the stock wires or 1.0-1.2mm (16-18awg).
I've got over 3 years and 11K miles on the motor. Don't need a temp sensor.
Don't ride in rain so no need to waterproof it.
I put a 72V controller on it and ran it for close to a year on 18s. For the last 22 months I've been running it 24s with the same $35 1500W 40A controller. I usually don't ride over 35mph, but it will do well over 40. You shouldn't have problem getting close to 45mph unless you're 270lbs like me.

I use a 15fet 4410 72V 1500W controller. The difference in speed between 4410 and 4110 fets will be less than 1mph according to the simulator. RDSon isn't that critical.
Yeah, you can push 6-10kw into it for a short period, but if you're looking for cruising speeds over 35mph, get a bigger motor. There is one person in Florida that recorded 53mph on his using an 80A controller on 24s iirc, but he was probably only half my weight and didn't go far at that speed.
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Mongoose 26" Ledge 2.1 mtb bike $99, yescomusa.com 48V 1000W rear hub kit $200, Hua Tong 72V 40A controller $35, 10ah 24s lipo $217=~43mph, range=45 miles @ 20mph. 25K miles and still going strong.
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Re: How far can you mod a Yescomusa DD HUb?

Post by Punx0r » Apr 11 2014 3:42am

I assume this is a 9C clone where the wires enter through the end of the axle? If so, liveforphysics posted a thread a few years ago (2010?) showing an upgrade to 10 awg phase wires. But it required slight widening of the hole through the axle, very thin hall wires, lube, replacing the phase wire insulation with 3mm heatshrink and plenty of effort to pull the bundle through.

12 awg was suggested as a more sensible option.

Forget getting silicone insulated wire of any size in there - the insulation is too thick.

I ended up using thinwall PVC insulated wire and I was surprised how small the wire ended up being before I managed to get in there.

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Re: How far can you mod a Yescomusa DD HUb?

Post by dogman dan » Apr 11 2014 5:13am

That general type of motor is easy enough to melt down with an upgrade to only the wire outside the axle. I never melted the wires, but instead would generally roast at leas the halls inside first. I was doing this either without vents, or with fairly small vents in the hub cover.

I never tried the oil trick, that might have worked better, if for no other reason than more thermal mass would heat up slower. It should help transfer heat to the cover better, so it can radiate. But at some point, you can make so much heat nothing is going to radiate it fast enough.

4000w in those hubs would saturate the windings pretty bad, I just made more heat and not a shitload more power by increasing voltage to 110v. When I went beyond 72v 40 amps, the motor clearly heated up a lot faster. This was not subjective, I was seeing it on the temperature probe I had on the axle. At 4000w, the heating was nearly immediate.

Anyway, I feel that this type of dd motor is best kept closer to 72v, 20s, 22s, and 40 amps. At that level, you have a pretty solid 30 min of riding at full throttle before the motor really heats up. That's still a pretty fun run, around 10 miles worth at 40 mph or so. I've melted tires from the inside on runs of that length, by turning a lot. So there is that limit too.

However, if you ride less like me, and more like Wes, then more watts may do no harm. If you typically cruise at 2000w, the motor will do that for very long periods with no excess heat. Then when you need all 4000w, you can have it to keep up with traffic for a few min.

The bottom line though, is if you want 4000w continuous for a long time, this motor will not do it. At that level, the winding is saturating, and the power is just making a light bulb out of your windings. If you want 45 mph for 60 min, you need a monster motor.

Re the contollers, I have just the 12 fet controllers from Lyens. One for 72v, the other modified for up to 120v. Neither controller has ever given me problems, but the 120v one is programmed for just 35 amps. So I never quite reached 4000w.

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Re: How far can you mod a Yescomusa DD HUb?

Post by teslanv » Apr 11 2014 6:55am

In the ebikes.can simulator, which motor would the Yescomusa motor match best? The Golden 500W or 9C 2807 or other?
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Re: How far can you mod a Yescomusa DD HUb?

Post by wesnewell » Apr 11 2014 8:08am

teslanv wrote:In the ebikes.can simulator, which motor would the Yescomusa motor match best? The Golden 500W or 9C 2807 or other?
Definitely not the Golden 500W Speed wise, probably the HS3540. From what I've read from someone that had both, the Golden 1000W motor is more durable than the 9C with larger phase wires. I don't have a 9C to compare to, but I have compared the 500W and 1000W and the 1000W has a lot bigger phase wires and a lot more power.
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Mongoose 26" Ledge 2.1 mtb bike $99, yescomusa.com 48V 1000W rear hub kit $200, Hua Tong 72V 40A controller $35, 10ah 24s lipo $217=~43mph, range=45 miles @ 20mph. 25K miles and still going strong.
Huffy Fortress 3.0 with MXUS 3000 4T motor, 24s lipo, 96V 60A controller. Total cost with extras <$700. Top speed ~50mph
My videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0KW4U ... _G2wQhptMg

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Re: How far can you mod a Yescomusa DD HUb?

Post by migueralliart » Apr 11 2014 8:54am

teslanv wrote:In the ebikes.can simulator, which motor would the Yescomusa motor match best? The Golden 500W or 9C 2807 or other?
2807 is what I've been using and the speed matches pretty close.

Also on a side note those yescomusa kits have recently been made out of all black (with no chrome rings).

They also started selling geared kits, has anyone else noticed this.

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Re: How far can you mod a Yescomusa DD HUb?

Post by teslanv » Apr 11 2014 1:44pm

How are the bearings on the Yescomusa Drives? I would think if they are low quality, they might be a failure point.

Sounds like shooting for 4kW is about the max for these hubs, so I'll probably try to source a 12 or 15FET 4110 Controller. 20S or 24S LiPo at 40A should just about get me there.

Wanting to do some how-to videos and this seems like a fun project to start with.

Thanks for the feedback, gents.
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Re: How far can you mod a Yescomusa DD HUb?

Post by wesnewell » Apr 11 2014 2:13pm

I've got over 3 years and 11K miles on mine with absolutely no problems with the bearings or anything else. Obviously the older model with the GM part number on the motor.
Need Advice? https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=66302
Mongoose 26" Ledge 2.1 mtb bike $99, yescomusa.com 48V 1000W rear hub kit $200, Hua Tong 72V 40A controller $35, 10ah 24s lipo $217=~43mph, range=45 miles @ 20mph. 25K miles and still going strong.
Huffy Fortress 3.0 with MXUS 3000 4T motor, 24s lipo, 96V 60A controller. Total cost with extras <$700. Top speed ~50mph
My videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0KW4U ... _G2wQhptMg

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Re: How far can you mod a Yescomusa DD HUb?

Post by evolutiongts » Apr 11 2014 3:58pm

I am using the yescomusa kit 1000w on 20s so thats 3600W at 40mph+

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Re: How far can you mod a Yescomusa DD HUb?

Post by e-beach » Apr 11 2014 4:41pm

I rewired my 36v 800w Yescomusa phase wires with 11awg solid motor wire (magnet wire) and 26awg motor wire for the halls. I was even able to use one wrap of electrical tape and two layers of shrink tubing around the wiring bundle for extra protection. Once I got the whole bundle through the axle I used colored shrink tubing on individual wires for extra protection and identification. It's not a project for the faint of heart. As stated above 10awg and Silicone wire won't fit. If I do it again I will not use one solid wire per phase, I will use a bunch of smaller gauge wire strands bundled to equal 11awg for (perhaps) better flexability. Haven't put a lot of miles on it yet due to lack of funds to finish the bike properly but it will happen sooner, or later.... :lol:

I have been meaning to post a thread on the experience for a long time. Anyway here is a few pics.
wire bundle.JPG
wire bundle.JPG (230.33 KiB) Viewed 4248 times
Bundle pulled.JPG
phase wires with shrink tubing.JPG
:D
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Current Build: ProFlex 757 Expert full suspension. Yescomusa 36v 800w Rear DD, upgraded 10AWG solid core through axle phase wires. 15ah Headway, 1000+ cycles, 80% DOD 30A Tronsung controller.

Past: Trek 4500 Yescomusa 36v 800w front DD.
Liahona, Yescomusa 36v 800w generic front DD.
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Re: How far can you mod a Yescomusa DD HUb?

Post by Dauntless » Apr 11 2014 8:02pm

evolutiongts wrote:I am using the yescomusa kit 1000w on 20s so thats 3600W at 40mph+
You're saying that at maybe 74v you're feeding nearly 50a and the Yescom holds up? From your videos I'd say you keep some substanial power on for at least crosstown distance. Is it the stock controller?

Your video points out why most people wouldn't survive on such a bike. When you're passing to the right there was the guy with the blinker going and you moved to the left, so many people would have run right in there as he turned and tried to blame the driver. He's in front, he owns the road. For most people it's best to keep them under 20mph.
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Re: How far can you mod a Yescomusa DD HUb?

Post by evolutiongts » Apr 11 2014 9:24pm

I have the side covers drilled and vented, and the I only burst up to 3600w for a few seconds, maybe up to a minute before backing off the throttle, the motor barely gets warm. I'm using a $50 greentime 15fet controller. I admit my riding in the video is a bit ridiculous, and unsafe. Its not safe to pass on the right, because there is a high possibility of getting right hooked, after years of riding road bikes and sportbikes. I didnt even have to think about it my body just applied brakes, counter steered and quick flicked to the left. Always have a exit plan in mind.

Image

I usually keep the motor under 1500w to maximize range and keep heat levels down. At 74v and 50a its surviving.


This is how I usually ride
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Re: How far can you mod a Yescomusa DD HUb?

Post by dogman dan » Apr 12 2014 7:29am

No reason not to expect the motor to run 8-10 miles with that voltage and amps. Particularly, you can cruise pretty dang quick on 1500w, so it can go pretty far if you don't ride WOT every inch of the ride. 1500w in that winding ought to get you into the 35 mph ballpark. I was doing it on a similar rpm motor with 72v 20 amps. It will go a long time with no overheating at 1500w.

But it would stay a tad cooler, if amps was limited to 40. When you amp spike it to 3600w, it really heats it fast. I seriously doubt you get a lot of power made into motion above 2500w. I think the winding is just not enough copper for much more than that. At least that's been my impression, riding dirt and pulling max amps a lot up really steep hills. Above 2500w, I just seemed to make the temp gage go crazy, and climb the hill no faster than 2500w would get me.

Others here know the science of when a motor saturates much better than I do, but I don't have a real number for when that happens on a 28mm 9c type motor. I do know most of those guys are now riding motors with a lot more copper in them. They want 5000-10,000w.

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Re: How far can you mod a Yescomusa DD HUb?

Post by teslanv » Apr 12 2014 7:47am

Yeah, I know the crowns and Cromotors are the kings right now hub wise. But being my first mod like this I thought it would be wise to "Practice" my craft work on something less valuable, and also a motor that won't be overkill on my current bike.
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Re: How far can you mod a Yescomusa DD HUb?

Post by 999zip999 » Apr 12 2014 2:09pm

24s 40amps will work. On long hills it will get hot. But flat land you can get away with it for some time. How much time ?

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Re: How far can you mod a Yescomusa DD HUb?

Post by dogman dan » Apr 12 2014 4:00pm

5 miles time for sure, possibly 10 miles. That's what I was getting, but at the races 12 miles plus a mile of warm up lap was too much, flames shot out the vent holes, and the temp was read at 450F. That was with the 110v at 35 amps. At the race, it was not a flat wot run, but rather wot brake, wot brake, 13 times per mile. So the worst to melt a motor.

But for damn sure, keep the WOT runs to a few miles, and it will work good. The point I wanted to make was that above 3000w, it's mostly just making heat with the wattage above 3000. The windings just turn into a space heater when the motor saturates.

So 24s yes, but keeping it to 30-40 amps is wise. 50 amps of 100v is just 2000w too much for this type of motor.

Do go ahead and melt it eventually, it fun with such cheap motors. :twisted:

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Re: How far can you mod a Yescomusa DD HUb?

Post by teslanv » Apr 12 2014 5:12pm

OK. So I picked up a Lyen 18X4110 controller this morning.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 31&t=58889
Probably way more than I need, but once the Yes is melted, I can use it on the next build.
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Re: How far can you mod a Yescomusa DD HUb?

Post by Punx0r » Apr 13 2014 9:08am

Dogman, you are making me sad with this talk of saturation at 3KW :( I'm currently running that peak and was planning to go to 5KW peak and expected a nice increase in power... Maybe I'll give it a try anyway or maybe I ought to get a magicpie instead...

While we're talking wiring upgrades. I've currently got a thermocouple wired in mine. Would a 10K NTC thermistor be better? I'm thinking compatibility with various off-the-shelf temperature displays.

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Re: How far can you mod a Yescomusa DD HUb?

Post by teslanv » Apr 13 2014 9:16am

Punx0r wrote:Dogman, you are making me sad with this talk of saturation at 3KW :( I'm currently running that peak and was planning to go to 5KW peak and expected a nice increase in power... Maybe I'll give it a try anyway or maybe I ought to get a magicpie instead...
I for one would like to see you get 5kW into your Yescomusa. And please share your results here :D
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Re: How far can you mod a Yescomusa DD HUb?

Post by teslanv » Apr 13 2014 9:34am

I would also ask if you would ride speeds in excess of 40mph on the stock spokes and rim, or if you relaced into something higher quality?
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Re: How far can you mod a Yescomusa DD HUb?

Post by wineboyrider » Apr 13 2014 9:48am

I run 6fet mini monster controller on 12s lipo and can do 1300 w continuous for a 28 mph cruise speed. This motor doesn't even get warm if i do the 1300 w dump for 14 plus miles. If I were to up the voltage to 20s or 22s i can easily get 3000 w and close to 40 mph? This is an unmodified 6fet lyen controller rated at 26 amps and I haven't soldered the shunts on the controller or done any mods to the wiring of the motor. I would upgrade the wires to the motor housing at least if I ran the 3000 w range continuously. I don't need this much power for commuting, but it's nice to know it's there...LOL
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Re: How far can you mod a Yescomusa DD HUb?

Post by wineboyrider » Apr 13 2014 9:52am

teslanv wrote:
Punx0r wrote:Dogman, you are making me sad with this talk of saturation at 3KW :( I'm currently running that peak and was planning to go to 5KW peak and expected a nice increase in power... Maybe I'll give it a try anyway or maybe I ought to get a magicpie instead...
I for one would like to see you get 5kW into your Yescomusa. And please share your results here :D
Dude there is a video of LFP flaming the hell out of some hub motors...LOL
There is a point when you make heat and not power or speed that is the saturation point. In ice engines this is the point where the engine explodes!
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Re: How far can you mod a Yescomusa DD HUb?

Post by teslanv » Apr 13 2014 10:10am

wineboyrider wrote:I run 6fet mini monster controller on 12s lipo and can do 1300 w continuous for a 28 mph cruise speed. This motor doesn't even get warm if i do the 1300 w dump for 14 plus miles. If I were to up the voltage to 20s or 22s i can easily get 3000 w and close to 40 mph? This is an unmodified 6fet lyen controller rated at 26 amps and I haven't soldered the shunts on the controller or done any mods to the wiring of the motor. I would upgrade the wires to the motor housing at least if I ran the 3000 w range continuously. I don't need this much power for commuting, but it's nice to know it's there...LOL
My lyen mini-monster is in the queue for the Yes, as my daily driver, too, although I might run it at 16S for a little bit of pep. - the 18X4110 will mostly be for experimenting and race day.
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Re: How far can you mod a Yescomusa DD HUb?

Post by wineboyrider » Apr 13 2014 10:21am

I like 12s lipo on my 6fet as it is programmed for regeneration below 14s lipo. I could reprogram it, but haven't bothered it is enough for me. I did my speed runs a few years ago with my cyclone setup and BMC speed motor. Just want reliable transport right now and the yescom motor is the ticket.
edit: At 16s lipo you should love it as a commuter controller just reprogram the regen for it, especially if you love regen as much as I do.
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