Deciding on what combination to use, 30mph 10mile each way.

Hello, This is my first post. My plan is to build an ebike from scratch meaning simply just assembling one from buyable parts. It is primarily for my commute of 15 km one way on some days and 9 km on the other days. So what I want is a 20 Mile/30 KM range. My budget is $1100 CAD including taxes excluding the bike itself which I need help deciding on also. I am just shy of 170lbs.

First off: I am not sure how accurate Google Earth's elevation measurements are, but according to that, it has a net gain in altitude of ~36m. I don't know how flat that is in ebike terms. Going east, there is one 17meter drop 1 km long and following that is a steady 40 meter incline about 4 km long and one more 20 meter incline about 1.5 km long. The rest is relatively flat and there are a little up and down hills but are small and uncountable. Coming back west is obviously the opposite.

I would like to build this as soon as possible and can't wait on the 5-6 weeks shipping time from China. I found that the Golden Motor dealer in Toronto has Magic Pie motors and decided to do a bit of research on them. I searched on the forums here and no where I found anyone trying to run this motor at max 30mph (they are all 70+ volts 40mph). The speed I'd like to achieve is preferably 30mph and I don't care for anything faster than that at the moment. I am quite unsure of what this motor would run like at 48 volts as some say 20mph, 25mph and 30mph.....

Battery:
Due to the budget limitations, I am leaning towards purchasing the 48V10Ah Lifepo4 battery from Golden Motors Can ($499 + tax) the 15Ah is $649 + tax. The continuous cell C rating on this battery I believe is 3C, max is 5C and I don't know what the BMS can handle. If anyone has batteries to sell locally that complements my build please say so.

I also found these power tools battery packs from my local homedepot: they are 2 pack 20 volt 4Ah $149 http://www.homedepot.ca/product/20-volt-max-40-ah-premium-xr-lithium-ion-2-pack/857997
and I believe these are the same but cheaper $128: http://www.lowes.ca/cordless-tool-batteries-chargers/dewalt-20v-lithium-cordless-tool-battery-2-pack_10613290.html
and there is also this Ego 56v 4ah $219: http://www.homedepot.ca/product/56-volt-40-ah-battery/865145

I don't know any of the C rating on those packs but I heard dewalt packs are A123 cells. If these packs are a good option I'd still have to get a BMS and Charger at extra cost.

Another local dealer (ebikes.ca) has Crystalyte and 9C motors in stock. Their lifepo4 batteries are a bit pricey though.

I really don't know how these motors compare; the magic pie 3, 9c and crystalyte (a little more cash).

As for the controller I, am also unsure of what I should get. The Magic Pie 3's built in controller, I read, is holding back the motor's potential. In other words, it's weak.

I first wanted to build on a road bike (700c) but later acknowledged that most of you use 26" mountain bikes due to the suspension. My bike budget is about $200 + tax.

If this build is do-able please let me know. What is your opinion on the 48v10ah battery and it's range? And which motor is best for my situation along with which controller? And on last thing, Golden Motor has a new kit called Black Magic, it claims to max out at 44kph on 48 volts. An opinions?

For that speed, 20 mile range will take every bit of a 48v 15 ah battery. And, 30 mph takes a wattage that will murder many of the 10ah size batteries. Sure, it's in the spec, but that doesn't mean a battery enjoys being used at max spec every inch of every ride.

They have improved, since the early lifepo4 types that could only handle 1c continuous. But nevertheless, you just can't haul ass 20 miles on 500 wh. it takes more like 700wh.

So bottom line, you need more battery than you thought. I don't know if GM Canada has a 48v 15 ah or not.

As for a cheap motor, the YES.com type kits in the 48v 1000w version is your cheap fast motor. It's actually a GM motor, or a copy of one. See if GM Canada stocks the old design motors, or find one from an Ebay source that ships from Canada.

This slightly faster motor will definitely get you to 30 mph on 48v. And it will handle the mild hills you have with ease.

Just looked at some of the stuff on GM Canada's site.

Looks like the black magic motor is pretty much identical with a 9c motor, in the 2807 winding. 27 mph on 48v, if that's fast enough for you. Combine with their 48v 15 ah battery, and you have pretty close to the spec you want. Just 3 mph slower.

Believe me, 27 mph is fast enough. So you could get all you want from GM Canada.

If you want 30mph and don't need disc brakes, go for the Pro 901 kit. But a 10ah 48V battery isn't going to get you 20 miles at 30 mph. You'd need 15ah minimum, and that would cut it close. Slow to 25 mph and it should be plenty.

You aren't going to find a new suspension bike worth using for $200. Infact I would steer you away from a full suspension bike for your first build, as attaching the battery is always a challenge, but attaching one to a full suspension bike takes some skill, patience, and experience.
Your best bet is to find a bike on Craigslist and spend your time getting it into shape for running with an ebike kit. A trek 820 is about an ideal bike, though anything like it would be good. What you are looking for is a large triangle frame, preferably in steel, with a 7 speed rear, meaning the bike will be sold as a 7, 14, or 21 speed bike.
Avoid brands like Huffy, Murry, Next, and Schwinn as these will be low quality bikes, not suitable for the high speeds you want to run.

^ Solid advice, I would roll with that.

I'd like to say I agree on a hardtail bike for your first, and add a suspension seat-post when funds allow. To increase range, you want to pedal along with the motor, so look at the place on the frame where the chainring is close to the chainstay of the frame. If there is some extra space there, you can swap-in a larger chainring. A 52T is popular, and some even order a 60T. Many bikes come stock with a 44T-48T chainring.

Thank you for your responses everyone. I was looking at the 15Ah battery for $649 and its size is 25cm x 18cm x 12.5cm. I am guessing I should get a bike with a triangle that can fit 25x18 cm. And, does anyone know why the Magic Pie 3 kit is $100 more than the Black Magic kit ($299)? Is it a better motor overall? And, what do I do to hide the battery as much as possible? Are there bags selling that can attach to the frame triangle? Maybe one like this one but might not fit the battery:


Well, as stealthy as possible.
And as Drunkskunk said, I'll avoid Huffy, Murry, Next and Schwinn.

BTW, I'm just letting you guys know. I cycled the commute twice and got pain the next day, legs were burnt out. When going up the small hills which have like a 10% grade for about 65 meters, I struggled and this is on a small bike I got for free; it's a crappy Huffy.

So spinningmagnets, do you think road bike is a good idea? I saw the post about wattage vs speed, and road bikes do better than mountain bikes.

Light road bikes are an acquired taste, and some guys love them. My town has bad roads and potholes, so I am forced to be a "fat tire" guy. However, I like it now, and I recommend it for 28-MPH on city streets.

The large diameter of the Magic Pie series increases the leverage of the magnetic action in the motor, and that increases the torque per watt, but...it is not a good motor if you like to pedal with no E-power once in a while, because the large diameter also increases the felt cogging (magnetic drag). I believe cogging is why geared hubs are the most popular from 250W-1,200W. Above 1,500W I'd say direct drive dominates because they can simply take more amps worth of heat, plus geared hubs don't do well at 72V-100V. DD hubs love 48V-72V and are the first choice if you spend a lot of time at 25-MPH to 40-MPH...

One of the most popular combinations for a commuter is the rear MAC 10T at 48V X 25A = 1,200W, providing around 28-MPH with better than average hill-climbing. If you have no hills...you can get an 8T for more top speed, or...use 36V to save some money on the battery. No cogging and smaller/lighter than a DD hub.

If you can be happy with 48V X 20A = 960W, you can save some money by getting a Bafang-BPM. The MAC has about 25% more copper mass, so it can take more amps, plus it has an optional factory-installed temp sensor. The BPM is easy to double the phase wires and install a temp sensor (if you are mechanically handy).

I understand that the Mac motors are great.But, I can't wait on the 1000000 millenia shipping from China. I wanted some fast from local or US, fast shipping I hope.

ibellisch said:

I understand that the Mac motors are great.But, I can't wait on the 1000000 millenia shipping from China. I wanted some fast from local or US, fast shipping I hope.

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I tell people that the 1-2 weeks you will wait are well worth it if you expect to ride this bike for the next 1-2 years. That's a 1:52 ratio...

Same thing with cellphones, you'll be married to that thing for a couple years, take a couple weeks to get the right one.

Conversely, if you have to have it now, pay the extra money and get a BMC. MACs are just (slightly lower quality) BMC copies anyways

Good Fast Cheap, choose 2

cal3thousand said:

ride this bike for the next 1-2 years. That's a 1:52 ratio...

Same thing with cellphones, you'll be married to that thing for a couple years, take a couple weeks to get the right one.

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Im just a university student and less than 20 yrs old waiting to get my G2 license (the first drivable one) so I can get a car. I only need the ebike for 6 months. Which is why I don't want to waste time waiting 5-6 weeks. The main thing is to get off public transit. It takes more than an 1.5 hours from door to door and It's very slow and inconvenient with all these rude people pushing and rushing. I'm quite sure with an e-bike, It'll be a nice enjoyable fast ride especially with the paved trails in my route. Cycling about 10km/h keeps up with the bus furthermore 30mph. And one thing, I don't keep phones for long, max 8 months.

ibellisch said:

I understand that the Mac motors are great.But, I can't wait on the 1000000 millenia shipping from China. I wanted some fast from local or US, fast shipping I hope.

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I ordered a triangle bag from China by courier and it was here in a week. I also ordered a charger from China by EMS; 50 days later, there is still no indication it has left the sorting facility. International orders need not take millennia. It's best for now to avoid EMS like the plague. I hear they are doing a review of the EMS service, hence the delays.

molybdenum, which courier? UPS? If you can find a bag that could fit the battery for me, that would be greatly appreciated.

I have a battery pack that i bought from sun-thing28(ebay seller) and i'm pretty happy with it. The pack is 48v 20ah LiFePO4 and it gives me 33km range because where i live we have plenty of dump roads and many hills, which ends up giving me low range for 20 ah, i suppose. Also, the BMS in the battery cuts off the current at certain voltage to protect cells, and it also reduces the range, but i dont care since it will make my battery last longer and i dont need a big range anyway. The battery was pretty cheap ( U$D 382,00 + U$D 101 shipping to Brazil). Last time i recharged it with a watt-metter from cut-off voltage it hit something about 17.8 AH, which is good enought. I would consider buying a pack from sun-thing28, he has been building a good reputation on ES and you will find good and cheap batteries from him.

mateusleo said:

I have a battery pack that i bought from sun-thing28(ebay seller) and i'm pretty happy with it.

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How long was the shipping to Brazil?

ibellisch said:

molybdenum, which courier? UPS? If you can find a bag that could fit the battery for me, that would be greatly appreciated.

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I ordered the EM3EV triangle bag for a 17s10p high discharge triangle battery I'm building. It fits the battery like a glove and fits snugly in the smallish triangle of my DH hardtail. It measures 17" across the top tube and 10" down the seat tube. I'm quite happy with it since unlike the ebay cheapies, it has lots of thick velcro straps to hold up to 10Kg on the frame. They sent it by UPS & it took me by surprise how fast it arrived here in Canada.

It may not fit all batteries but the ones Paul Cellman sells should fit fine, though these are a little pricey. Unfortunately, I haven't found a bag that is any larger than the EM3EV one that will stand up to 20+ pound loads.

If the $649 batt is a 25cm x 18cm x 12.5cm block, I don't think it will fit in the triangle bag. What about EM3EV's 50V 18.5Ah 925Whr Samsung battery for $725?
http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=123
Although a little pricier, it includes the EM3EV bag and would have the range and discharge (3C rating, 2 continuous?, ~30A max current for 30mph without killing it?) you need for your build. You'd be sure it would fit your triangle if the bag fits nicely. They have higher discharge lower Ah batteries which can provide more amps without killing the battery as well. I'm thinking a 15Ah ping would die an early death if it were to be run at 30A continuously. Even this battery is a little on the low side for discharge rating needed for 30MPH sustained.

Batteries can only be shipped with certain carriers. I think EM3EV has a DHL battery service but it could be shipped Fedex or TNT. Shipping batteries is a PITA , costs extra and can take time. It's kind of hard to get a good battery in the domestic market, so I'd recommend ording one compatible with your build ASAP if you're in a hurry.

ibellisch said:

mateusleo said:

I have a battery pack that i bought from sun-thing28(ebay seller) and i'm pretty happy with it.

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How long was the shipping to Brazil?

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Shipping to Brazil is always a funny history... when it's shipped by airmail it usually takes 30-60 days ( usually only 30% of this time is due the transportation itself, the other 70% happens due to customs delay to fiscalize the item). If I remember alright, the battery shipping to Brazil, by sea mail, took about 3 months in total.

How long do you guys think EMV3EV would take to ship a battery here, to Toronto, ON? And what would be the cost? I can't seem to find that on their site.

You have to Register on the site and then go to the checkout to find out about shipping the goods you have in your basket. I dont think it will let you do this as a guest user.

Does anyone know what grades the Pro 901 would handle at 48 volts and what speed? I'm under 170lb's btw.

Here is electric bicycle shop in Toronto.
http://www.ezriders.ca/
ezriders
1374 Danforth ave.
Toronto, ON
M4J1M9
Phone : (416) 461-8989
Buying a electric bicycle takes less time then building one.

marty said:

Here is electric bicycle shop in Toronto.
http://www.ezriders.ca/
ezriders
1374 Danforth ave.
Toronto, ON
M4J1M9
Phone : (416) 461-8989
Buying a electric bicycle takes less time then building one.

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I checked them out a long time ago but their ebike prices start way beyond my budget and they are all limited, slow, legal stuff.

ibellisch said:

Does anyone know what grades the Pro 901 would handle at 48 volts and what speed? I'm under 170lb's btw.

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On 14s lipo it carried my 270 lbs up some fairly steep short hills @ ~20mph iirc. Been running 24s with 40A controller for the last 2 years and I can accelerate to 30mph up those same hills. None of them are more than half a mile though. At only 170 lbs, you shouldn't have a problem at all.

So wesnewell, would the pro 901 do 30 mph on the flats at 48v with the stock controller?