One of those annoying hard to trace intermittent problems.

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alsmith   100 kW

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One of those annoying hard to trace intermittent problems.

Post by alsmith » Jul 03 2014 1:58pm

Sorry this is a bit long but ideas needed!

It's one of those annoying hard to trace intermittent problems that's been going on for a couple of months.

Background-
Main Controller 100V 18 FET Lyen.
Controller 2 132V 18 FET Lyen
Problems on my main controller but not another, just returned from Edward Lyen where it tested as ok.


The main controller was a Mk 1 which was dead so returned to Ed Lyen for repair. I'd tried the spare controller which worked, put the main controller back but again dead. (I've been running Controller 2 for a month while it was away). He couldn't find a problem (!) but fitted a new (Mk 2) board for me.

The 2nd controller (the 132V one) works properly with no problems at all- I've used it over the last month.

This new controller randomly judders badly like when the phases are not in synchronisation. After fitting the controller it seemed ok but was only tested with the wheel lifted up not on a ride. When I tried to go out on it for the first ride after a couple of days it wouldn't go at all with the wheel juddering badly. I disconnected all of the controller connectors, all looked ok but I tightened the phase wire spade connections which seemed slightly loose but still making good connection. I also used electrical spray on the contacts.
Bear in mind that everything had worked with the Controller 2 while waiting for the main controller so the problem is more likely this main controller and much less likely to be the bikes wiring which has remained untouched.
The bike ran but was again randomly juddering every now and then. This judder happens at any speed, and any load from low speed up hills to fairly fast on the flat. All accessories (3 speed etc.) all seem ok but were disconnected with the same judder.

I changed back to the 132V controller 2- all was smooth with no judders.

And then back to the 100V one - the occasional intermittent judder was back.
I also noticed what appears to be a small pulse in the motion of the bike when riding it - maybe just under every second.

The problem seems to be this controller or its connectors since the other works without any problems and all of the wiring was undisturbed.

All of the wires and connectors appear to be from my Mk 1 100V controller which were transferred to this Mk 2 100V controller so I assume they were changed over when fitting the new Mk 2 board so they seem to be the only common factor since the bikes wiring seems to be ok, but they worked for Ed Lyen.


Many thanks for any suggestions.

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MadRhino   100 GW

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Re: One of those annoying hard to trace intermittent problem

Post by MadRhino » Jul 03 2014 3:00pm

Controllers are not born equal. Don't forget that those boards are Chinese.
All my controllers are 18 fet 4110 infineon, most from Lyen, all have been modded to pull 150A batt current on 24s lipo. It is my favorite controller, for its size and power ability. I have no more of the 4115, for it fries quickly if you set it to feed high power.

Some of my controllers fail once a year, some never worked reliably, 2 have seen over 10 000 Km, and one have seen 34 000 Km and still running. I have had my share of intermittent problems with controllers, my experience is that after repair they are quickly back to the same problem. One that doesn't cut it for me, might very well work fine for someone else running lower power or voltage. I sell them cheap if they are not good, sometimes give them away or trade them for bike parts. After over a dozen and a half controllers, 3 of them that I am perfectly happy with, I am still buying some once in a while in the hope of finding a fourth. :wink:
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alsmith   100 kW

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Re: One of those annoying hard to trace intermittent problem

Post by alsmith » Jul 04 2014 3:10pm

Thanks for the thoughts- but if this was a constant issue I'd expect to see lots of posts about this kind of problem but I can't recall seeing it before. And this is a 'just received' controller- I thought Lyen tested them before despatch (he used to send videos of a ride using the controller). Also strange it was a previous board and a replacement board both 18FET 100V controllers and both using the same controller wires and connectors. It's possibly time to source all of those different connectors and replace them along with the wires :shock:

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Re: One of those annoying hard to trace intermittent problem

Post by Tench » Jul 04 2014 5:47pm

When I had my bomber I had a similar problem, it also had the pulsing feel you describe, John at Stealth was fantastic and sent me an entire electrical system so I could substitute parts to identify the culprit, I even changed the halls. The problem turned out to be the pot in the Magura throttle. So John got all his stuff back and I fitted a hall throttle. It was great after that. But we both first suspected the controller.
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Cowardlyduck   100 MW

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Re: One of those annoying hard to trace intermittent problem

Post by Cowardlyduck » Jul 05 2014 12:15am

I had a similar issue with my 18Fet modded EB3 controller.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 86#p833789

In the end, I never figured out what was causing the intermittent shuddering. I persisted putting up with it since it only occurred occasionally, and for brief periods.

In the last 4 months it's only done it once, for less than 5 seconds each time. So I think it self corrected. :)

Cheers
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alsmith   100 kW

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Re: One of those annoying hard to trace intermittent problem

Post by alsmith » Jul 05 2014 5:59am

Cowardlyduck wrote:I had a similar issue with my 18Fet modded EB3 controller.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 86#p833789

In the end, I never figured out what was causing the intermittent shuddering. I persisted putting up with it since it only occurred occasionally, and for brief periods.

In the last 4 months it's only done it once, for less than 5 seconds each time. So I think it self corrected. :)

Cheers
Thanks. At the moment I think I would settle for that too! I had thought it was 'improving' but after a stop about 100 yards from home it must have happened over 20 times from short judders to several seconds of bad judders (the judders reduce in strength when you back off the throttle as you'd expect, and worsen when applying more throttle. Changing throttle doesn't seem to affect the time the judder lasts).

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alsmith   100 kW

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Re: One of those annoying hard to trace intermittent problem

Post by alsmith » Oct 02 2014 7:13pm

I'd like to resurrect this to add some more info and try to get a way forward. This has dragged on for so long................

Quick summary:
Mk 1 Lyen 18 FET 100V Controller. Capacitor broke off - replaced, didn't work, sent to Lyen, tested ok, returned to me but didn't work (spare controller worked flawlessly during this time). Returned to Lyen, he tested as ok. I upgraded to Mk 2 18 FET 100V Controller, this jerked very badly (basically unrideable) but swapping to the spare controller and it worked perfectly. I swapped back and forward- always the same. I returned it back to Lyen and it worked ok for him.

What do you think I should do next?

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Cowardlyduck   100 MW

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Re: One of those annoying hard to trace intermittent problem

Post by Cowardlyduck » Oct 03 2014 4:30am

You might want to verify the controller settings are identical between the controllers...could be a hall sensor angle setting. Do you have a programming cable? Might be an idea to get one if you don't already.

I should add also, my shuddering issues have returned recently...at the same time the weather has started to warm up around here. I'm beginning to think my problem may be temperature related.
One way I though of troubleshooting it, if I can be bothered, is wait till it's doing it again, then spray some c02 at different parts of the controller to see if it goes away. Then I can at least isolate the area of the controller potentially at fault.

Cheers
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Re: One of those annoying hard to trace intermittent problem

Post by dnmun » Oct 03 2014 7:56am

is it possible that the 5 pin plug for the hall sensor leads on this other controller that shudders has contact problems? do you think that one of the clips is not fully contacting the spade in the other side of the plug? or maybe the way the wire is attached to the clip allows the wires to not make good contact at all times?

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Kent   1 kW

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Re: One of those annoying hard to trace intermittent problem

Post by Kent » Oct 03 2014 9:30am

I just got a new 18fet from Lyen and it does the same thing. Shudders and vibrates up to 2/3 throttle and then it smooths out.

But, it runs very smoothly with no shuddering at all when run with the wheel off the ground.

I just sent it back.
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Re: One of those annoying hard to trace intermittent problem

Post by number1cruncher » Oct 03 2014 12:42pm

I had a similar problem you all are experiencing. Before I found the problem the wheel would spin up great no load. After adding a load it would shudder with very poor take off performance. I traced it back to a phase wire (not hall) that was making poor contact, thereby creating increased resistance.

Maybe a connector on the primary controller AND your hub have issues. When you use the secondary controller maybe it connects sufficiently with the hub. And when Edward tests the primary maybe his hub has a decent connector that compensates as well?

Have you checked for resistance on all wires from the pcb to connector ends? How about voltages on the throttle and hall sensors?

I had another controller where the 7805 voltage regulator went bad slowly. Over a course of several weeks the bike went from very occasional cutouts to the point were I was constantly fiddling with the throttle while riding to keep it going.

Good luck!

Kent wrote:I just got a new 18fet from Lyen and it does the same thing. Shudders and vibrates up to 2/3 throttle and then it smooths out.

But, it runs very smoothly with no shuddering at all when run with the wheel off the ground.

I just sent it back.
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alsmith   100 kW

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Re: One of those annoying hard to trace intermittent problem

Post by alsmith » Oct 06 2014 8:25am

Thanks guys.
I'll mount the 2 controllers so I can change over quickly and also start going through the suggestions. Things point to a connector problem (but I'm keeping an open mind).

I asked Edward a few questions about a week and a half ago but still waiting for his response- he still has the controller.
I've copied those questions below- ALL input is welcome!


What voltage did you check the controllers at? I mostly run 36V, sometimes 72V

I'm sure that you're like me- I hate not knowing what the cause of the problem is- without that it's hard to know what is the best thing to do.
- To help the decision what are the differences between the Mk1 and Mk2 controllers? Original was Mk1, replacement Mk2. The wire&connectors were transferred so still the original ones
- I recall mention of a change of a resistor value when running at the lower voltages like 36V- can you give a little information about this, and might this possibly help with this problem? (although the 132V controller seems ok).
- Do you have any thoughts on why the consumption (Wh/m) would have increased/range decreased by around 20% using the 4115 FET controller compared to what the 4110 Mk1 range had been? I don't recall what it had been the previous times it was used but I'm quite certain it wasn't that much more.
- I got a new v2.3 Cycle Analyst shortly after the original Mk1 controller started going faulty (the V2.1 developed corruption of the program in EPROM). Could there be any link here? I doubt it as the new v2.3 CA was used with the Mk2 controller and it was programmed with all of the same settings that had worked properly with the earlier v2.1 unit.

Can you think of anything else I can try- but everything works properly with the 4115 FET controller at 36V and wiring and connectors have checked out as OK..


Thanks guys!

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