Newbie questions Lashout and BB-2590 (30v) Batteries

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
Post Reply
User avatar
DrInnovation   100 W

100 W
Posts: 110
Joined: Jul 28 2014 7:27pm
Location: Colorado Springs, CO

Newbie questions Lashout and BB-2590 (30v) Batteries

Post by DrInnovation » Jul 28 2014 8:14pm

I'm a newbie on just getting into ebikes. I moved and my commute is now 1 to 2 miles (depending on path) but has some 8 and 10% grades, so while I can do it on a bike my heart is racing and I arrive at work sweating. I don't really want/need speed or really long range and want some exercise just not wanting getting my HR to 190 and being sweaty. Read lots of things on ES and considered building my own, but trying to balance cost with value.

In look at building my own us also used and resuing parts I have from previous projects. Since batteries are often a very expensive parts I was hoping to reuse some military batteries I have from another project (I have 6 plus 2 charger2 and 2 flexible portable solar chargers). These are BB-2590/UBI-2590 (http://ultralifecorporation.com/be-mili ... ubbl10-01/) and are very nice rugged and reliable batteries. These are packaged with a natural serial/parallel format, nominally 15/30v with actual voltage range of 20-33.6v in the "30v" mode. Was thinking of using them on some 36v controller or+ rear-hub based setup on my el cheapo mongoose mountain bike. Or Maybe a Magic Pie 2 or 3 as they can handle the voltage of those batteries just fine.

But today I found a used lashout 24v ebike from craigslist for $250 (http://cosprings.en.craigslist.org/bik/4580022966.html). The pic of the used bike look like its in great shape. It has new SLAs but I don't expect SLA will last that long and are heavy, though with my shorter commute they would be okay for now. And its less than half the cost of the parts I was considering. A separate ebike would mean I can keep my regular bike for days I don't mind the sweat (or as i get in better shape and don't sweat as much ;-) but can take ebike on days I teach or have meetings or am running late... Not a lot posted here about the lashout and similar bikes, though what I found was generally positive. So any gotacha to lookout for when I test drive it? Are parts still available if it had problems?

Now for the really out there question.. can I mod the lashout to use the BB2590 30v batteries? As I understand from reading here and other sites, the lashout has an integrated controller. I'm torn as I was looking to reuse the BB2590s allowing me to also use it for longer bike trips. So wondered if anyone here had experience with voltages in the low 30 on as lashout or similar bikes. I know they actually sold a 36v version (read that on a thread here pointing to http://www.nycewheels.com/lashout-elect ... e-36v.html). but don't know if that had a different controller and 36v means is higher voltages. if I use eventually switch to an external 36v controller what do I have do to remove/override the internal controller?
Owner of a Crystalyte 4012/409 with 10aH 16s Headway on a old huffy frame. Its not fast but it climbs my daily commute up 8% and 10% grades nicely. Washout frame with a "e-bike" front-drive hub with a home-built 18650-based 20ah-36v. My bigger "E-ride" is a chevy volt.

User avatar
amberwolf   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 28414
Joined: Aug 17 2009 6:43am
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth, Sol, Local Bubble, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group
Contact:

Re: Newbie questions Lashout and BB-2590 (30v) Batteries

Post by amberwolf » Jul 29 2014 4:09pm

Well, 24V SLA would be ~28-29V fully charged, and ~20V dead, so the voltage of those UL BB batteries isn't that far off. Unless the controller in it has some specific limitation or cutoff for overvoltage, my guess is it would work fine.


However, I'm not sure if those UL BB batteries can output enough current to drive the motors, unless you parallel a number of them. I have one here (UBI 2590)
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 2&p=523374
and even paralleled at it's connector for it's lower-voltage mode it didnt' run even just my lights all that well. IIRC even at only 0.5C it was sagging a couple of volts (details ought ot be in the linked post).


If your motor doesnt' draw much current it *might* work, but...unless you have several to parallel there will be a lot of voltage sag at even moderate currents (5-6A).

User avatar
Drunkskunk   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 7167
Joined: Apr 14 2007 11:37am
Location: Dallas, Texas. U.S.A.

Re: Newbie questions Lashout and BB-2590 (30v) Batteries

Post by Drunkskunk » Jul 29 2014 5:06pm

Those batteries are cool, but in the 15v mode, they still can only handle 20 amps output. They really aren't designed for running a motor. If you have enough of them in parallel, maybe.

The Lashout is a Currie based bike. the Currie motor is well known and reliable, but noisy as all hell. It's also not geared properly for hill climbing. It can be modified for it, but usually at a cost above just buying a better motor.

Sadly, you have the makings of a good ebike for short commutes there, but you have hills. so none of that equipment will work well for you.
Buy the ticket, take the ride.
Monster Bike:http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=38667

User avatar
DrInnovation   100 W

100 W
Posts: 110
Joined: Jul 28 2014 7:27pm
Location: Colorado Springs, CO

Re: Newbie questions Lashout and BB-2590 (30v) Batteries

Post by DrInnovation » Jul 29 2014 8:14pm

Thanks for the feedback.. Interesting I had not seen that thread. Good reading.


@amberwolf I get the 28-29v for SLA, but the BB2950 can hit 33 which is my concern. No easy way to check the caps on an integrated controller and I don't really want to smoke it.

Interesting to read your thread.. and the sag. Definitely lower voltage than the specs (Image
but the difference in voltage sag difference from 2A to 6A is not too surprising to me given the specs.

I have more than a dozen of the batteries.. if I was not clear I was thinking of up to 6 in parallel (experimenting to see what I needed which would also depending on the motors I get). Even with 6 the weight only equal to one SLA battery. Not sure about the volume, rough estimate is 6 is about the size of 2 SLA.

They claim 10A continuous discharge @30v for the units, I won't want to abuse them so when looking at a custom build I figured 6 in parallel on a 500w motor @30v for about 3.3A draw per unit.. We used them for field experiments with our own down converts/regulators so anything above 12v was fine for us. They worked well with an pretty heavy (~35-40A) but also relatively constant load. We used 6 units (12 15v sections) in parallel for which they would last 2.5 hours or so. I've 6way parallel cables already built (though for 15v mode.. so I'll have to mod them). Since i knew they did okay for us at that type of load I figured 6 at most for my needs. With 6@6ah=36ah@30v, a charge should last me days of commuting. I have enough for 2 sets of 6, so I can be solar (or wall) charging one set while I use the other.

@Drunkskunk.. Good to know that they are normally noisy. I might have thought it was a bad unit. I don't mind, in fact i want to pedal as well. the few reviews I saw (e.g. http://www.electricstar.org/Review2014/index.html ) said it was a good hill climber and another took it up a 10% hill (http://visforvoltage.org/forum/6595-lashout-cuts-out)) thought it did required a lo of pedaling up the 10% hill. Even if its not geared for full throttle up 8-10%.. I'm okay as long as it does not fail outright or die quickly. One concern is that In the second review it talks about cutting out, but more so on the flats after the hill so maybe overheating or just a controller issue as that thread said?
Owner of a Crystalyte 4012/409 with 10aH 16s Headway on a old huffy frame. Its not fast but it climbs my daily commute up 8% and 10% grades nicely. Washout frame with a "e-bike" front-drive hub with a home-built 18650-based 20ah-36v. My bigger "E-ride" is a chevy volt.

User avatar
amberwolf   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 28414
Joined: Aug 17 2009 6:43am
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth, Sol, Local Bubble, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group
Contact:

Re: Newbie questions Lashout and BB-2590 (30v) Batteries

Post by amberwolf » Jul 30 2014 2:17pm

DrInnovation wrote: @amberwolf I get the 28-29v for SLA, but the BB2950 can hit 33 which is my concern. No easy way to check the caps on an integrated controller and I don't really want to smoke it.
Since most caps come in a few standard voltages, it is likely they are at least 50V, maybe 63V. The FETs on the ohter hand might not be capable of it, but probably are. If you poke around on ES for "Currie" or "Lashout" you may find others that already investigated that.

However, honestly, given the amount of sag I saw with my pack at relativley low currents, I fully expect you'd see so much sag under any load that you wouldn't ahve to worry about the extra volts (or not for long, anyway). ;)

Interesting to read your thread.. and the sag. Definitely lower voltage than the specs ([http://ultralifecorporation.com/media/u ... 40_q85.jpg
but the difference in voltage sag difference from 2A to 6A is not too surprising to me given the specs
.

Specs are nice, for brand new, right out of the factory stuff. ;) But I suspect yours are well-used before you got them, just like mine, and probalby aged, too. So they won't perform like they did when new--especially depending on the number of cycles the cells inside are intended to handle; and their shelf life--neither of which I have any clue about in the case of these packs.



I have more than a dozen of the batteries.. if I was not clear I was thinking of up to 6 in parallel (experimenting to see what I needed which would also depending on the motors I get). Even with 6 the weight only equal to one SLA battery. Not sure about the volume, rough estimate is 6 is about the size of 2 SLA.
Fortunatley they are light, and though they do still have a reasonably large volume for their Wh it's not too bad; there's a lot worse out there. :) i expect a bit of the volume is packing/padding/etc to ensure durability of the packs in their intended environment. :lol:

They claim 10A continuous discharge @30v for the units, I won't want to abuse them so when looking at a custom build I figured 6 in parallel on a 500w motor @30v for about 3.3A draw per unit..
That sounds reasonable, though I would expect more sag than you might be lead to believe based on specs (especially as they age and as they discharge during a ride).

User avatar
DrInnovation   100 W

100 W
Posts: 110
Joined: Jul 28 2014 7:27pm
Location: Colorado Springs, CO

Re: Newbie questions Lashout and BB-2590 (30v) Batteries

Post by DrInnovation » Jul 31 2014 10:11pm

Well independent of the ability to use the batteries, I took the plunge and bought the lashout, I'm am e-biker Took it for a ride and had no problem getting to school, without getting my HR above 120. I pedaled at a good pace, but was able to maintain 15mph up the 8% and 10mph up the 10% grades.. Looks like it fine for me in its stock form. So my testing the 30v will wait until the SLAs show their age or I find more definitive source saying I won't fry the embedded controller just hooking up 30v.


Thanks for the idea to look at other brands (I had searched for lashout.. Lots of other currie models so hard to tell, but I did find that for the currie's that it simply does not turn on at too high a voltage, but does not fry it. Some of the older ones just worked at 36v others did not. Still not sure it applies to the lashout motor so while encouraging since its okay not its not worth risking it to test, and I'll keep looking.

amberwolf wrote: However, honestly, given the amount of sag I saw with my pack at relativley low currents, I fully expect you'd see so much sag under any load that you wouldn't ahve to worry about the extra volts (or not for long, anyway). ;)
Agreed about the sag being in my favor there.. my concern was blowing it up just sitting still. I hate it when magic smoke escapes from things I just bought, even used ones.


amberwolf wrote: Specs are nice, for brand new, right out of the factory stuff. ;) But I suspect yours are well-used before you got them, just like mine, and probably aged, too. So they won't perform like they did when new--especially depending on the number of cycles the cells inside are intended to handle; and their shelf life--neither of which I have any clue about in the case of these packs.

well these are pretty close to new.. I bought them factory fresh (tough that was a few years ago now).. they have less than 20 cycles each. And since I bough 15 units @$400+ per unit.. which is why I want to find a good use for them. I guess I could also just sell them on ebay..
Owner of a Crystalyte 4012/409 with 10aH 16s Headway on a old huffy frame. Its not fast but it climbs my daily commute up 8% and 10% grades nicely. Washout frame with a "e-bike" front-drive hub with a home-built 18650-based 20ah-36v. My bigger "E-ride" is a chevy volt.

Post Reply