new eZip motor

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
User avatar
DrkAngel   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 5508
Joined: Dec 15 2010 11:14am
Location: Upstate-Western-Southern Tier NY. USA

Re: new eZip motor

Post by DrkAngel » Apr 07 2021 3:48am

EBikes now being legal in NY will likely keep eBike kit prices up, for awhile anyhow.
Last edited by DrkAngel on Apr 07 2021 4:11am, edited 1 time in total.
A little learning is a dangerous thing;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
There, shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely, sobers us again.

I enjoy enlightening ... and enlivening the spirit of the innovators.

New & Improved - Acronym Definitions

Index - Homemade Battery Packs - Updated - December 2019

EBike Toolbox - Bargains! $

Endless Sphere Wiki - Lost?

User avatar
latecurtis   1.21 GW

1.21 GW
Posts: 3724
Joined: Jan 18 2014 1:53pm
Location: central Ohio

Re: new eZip motor

Post by latecurtis » Apr 07 2021 4:05am

Yea.

I might order more Bafang motors now that I know they work. Not sure though. I still have to run them under load.

I still do not know why it is when I am right about something nobody can admit it. I admit when I am wrong. I still have no clue why that e bikeling controller did not work.

Yes I did hook the controller to the yellow plug coming from the motor the first time instead of the yellow plug coming from the 4 in 1 cable like I was supposed to but then I shut off the power and hooked up correct and got flashing lights and no power to the motor.

I know I was wrong for over reacting and was a fool for smashing the e bikeling controller especially when I could have used it as a spare for my two e bikeling motors on the Giant Roam.

I think Backlight's idea was right back then but was not thinking about cutting off 9 pin plugs back then. Now I have a bunch of people mad at me even though I solved the problem on my own and did not have to switch wires around.

Anyway I need to order that 13S pack at Battery Hookup you posted. Also apologize if I offended anyone. It was not intended. I just did not agree with the advice given and found a different way.

Sometimes I feel like those motors are cursed. I am afraid to hook up the controller that did not work to the rear motor as it might start working out of the blue. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Hub motors with personalities. Maybe China put an Ai chip inside those motors just to frock with us. :lol:

All I know is I want a belt drive. I also want a 3D printer. I need to move on.

Thanks.

LC. out.
I build e bikes. There not always pretty or practical but sometimes they work, at least for awhile. Immortality is not a dream but the future of our evolution. We were given the tools to forge our own destiny. We were created in gods image and shall evolve to live forever.

markz   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 12751
Joined: Jan 09 2014 11:38pm
Location: Alberta Canada

Re: new eZip motor

Post by markz » Apr 07 2021 4:37am

This video from Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:53 am
latecurtis wrote:
Apr 06 2021 7:53am
The front motor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPRDIYdd8AI
Well I guess if thats working fine now, then you can go out and ride.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, I explained that.
Blacklite wrote:
Apr 07 2021 1:22am
85a8f0aa692be12ad8967c1d1880aeed.jpg
20369515_1573463026038352_2576557064571024780_o_z4cwUAOjqb.jpg

Look at the colour of the wires and where they connect.

User avatar
latecurtis   1.21 GW

1.21 GW
Posts: 3724
Joined: Jan 18 2014 1:53pm
Location: central Ohio

Re: new eZip motor

Post by latecurtis » Apr 07 2021 6:30am

Sometimes I feel like those motors are cursed. I am afraid to hook up the controller that did not work to the rear motor as it might start working out of the blue.
First I have to try and hook up the rear motor to the controller that did not work. As if it starts working we may be looking at a supernatural situation. Like the movie Christine.

If it starts working that would be really spooky.

If it does the sputter thing then I will take the controller that does work and the front motor and put it on the front of the Currie.

I never intended to run any Bafang solo. The advantage of geared hub motors is on flat ground < 20 mph. Just a smooth motor easy to control with a throttle. Not a bucking Bronco like the 1,800 watt brushless motor where the bike bucks every rough spot in the road you hit as if you breath hard on the throttle it wants to accelerate wildly.

However when you do come to a hill and need to get somewhere on time and do not feel like pushing it up the hill or there is a long straight smooth road where > 20 mph is desirable a powerful chain drive does the trick. It is about the best of both worlds.

Two geared hub motors is the minimum and already have that on the Giant Roam and still have not rode it. It has been built for about 8 months now. :oops: I guess I like building more than riding but the nice weather is here so that will change somewhat.


I plan on bringing the Currie down to the van once I put the hub motor on the front and bringing the 20" Turbo with the 800W hub motor on the back upstairs as it has a flat tire. That is a really comfortable . smooth bike and does have decent hill climbing capability. It is the smallest bike I have and easy to handle. It is rated at 800W @ 48V but usually run it 10S - approx. 533W.

Thanks.

LC. out.
I build e bikes. There not always pretty or practical but sometimes they work, at least for awhile. Immortality is not a dream but the future of our evolution. We were given the tools to forge our own destiny. We were created in gods image and shall evolve to live forever.

User avatar
Sunder   1 GW

1 GW
Posts: 3032
Joined: Sep 06 2011 11:24pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: new eZip motor

Post by Sunder » Apr 07 2021 7:28am

Typical infancy failure rates for electronic components is around 25 per million. So the odds of you repeatedly getting DOA parts like you have is so low, you must be the unluckiest man on earth, or PEBKAC...

On that note, you criticise the manufacturer for not testing parts outbound, when after having sold 500, the odds of having a single failure are very close to zero. I don't believe the seller had 5 faults out of 500. 5 complaints maybe. Most of those complaints were probably user error, or damage in transit.

It would seem like a waste of time to check for such a low probability event occurring. And even if you could check 30 motors an hour, at around $30/hour (Say, $20/hour for semi-skilled labour, then the rest of the costs for hiring someone) then that's still $500 of labour for 500 units. Assuming testing will avoid all complaints (that is, all complaints are genuine defects, not user error or damage in transit), that's $100 to avoid each complaint - Cheaper to not test, and just replace any broken motor.

Flip the odds around. You criticise them for not looking for the 25 in 1,000,000 event. You claim it's broken, but did you ever test for the 999,975 in 1,000,000 event? It's trivial to hook up a 5v power source and a multimeter to check all 3 hall sensors, then all phases for shorts. I skimmed a lot of posts for time reasons, I saw someone suggest it, but I never saw if you did it or not.

By the way, I never said catastrophic failure. I said that even if you got it working under load, it was likely to have frequent over-current cut-offs, and if the controllers were poorly designed, blown from an over-current event.

Check out what this 11 year old thread had to say about Bafang motors and Sensorless controllers.
Sensor-less BLDC operation have a nature disadvantage which is the rotor position cannot be obtain easily and correctly, especially in the low RPM range (0~100RPM). This disadvantage usually causes knocking, over current and decreased controller life. The drawback may be minimized with fast back-EMF sampling / calculating but the controller cost will rocket high since DSP is usually involved signal processing. IMO low cost sensor-less BLDC controller should never be used to drive high power motor since a single mistaken phase could destroy the controller itself.
viewtopic.php?t=15522

(Chose not to use the quote references, so the OP doesn't get an email after 11 years indicating their post had been quoted).
eBike: Q100H on 16S with Phaserunner FOC Controller
eMotorscooter: Vectrix VX-1 Died... Electrified Ninja in Progress!
eCar: Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV... Warramty expired. Still not game!
eHouse: 6.2kw On-grid solar with battery backup coming soon!

After 5 builds, the best advice I can give, is start with high quality products. I prefer http://www.ebikes.ca

markz   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 12751
Joined: Jan 09 2014 11:38pm
Location: Alberta Canada

Re: new eZip motor

Post by markz » Apr 07 2021 6:28pm

I bet many dont even know what they are looking at, or whats different between them.
Blacklite wrote:
Apr 07 2021 1:22am
85a8f0aa692be12ad8967c1d1880aeed.jpg
20369515_1573463026038352_2576557064571024780_o_z4cwUAOjqb.jpg

Look at the colour of the wires and where they connect.

User avatar
latecurtis   1.21 GW

1.21 GW
Posts: 3724
Joined: Jan 18 2014 1:53pm
Location: central Ohio

Re: new eZip motor

Post by latecurtis » Apr 07 2021 6:36pm

Typical infancy failure rates for electronic components is around 25 per million. So the odds of you repeatedly getting DOA parts like you have is so low, you must be the unluckiest man on earth, or PEBKAC...
What electronic components ?????

Not all are the same. Not even close man.

For example a $100 controller vs an $11 controller.

I can believe if I pay $50 or more and it is a common brand not a no name brand that those statistics could be somewhat accurate but entirely depends on quality control during manufacturing.

A $10 to $20 cheap Chinese controller ????? No way in a million years.

Those Wish.com controllers are SUSPECT !!!! to say the least.

I am not really familiar with the self learning circuit but my guess is a failure or a cheap electronic part/component could be the culprit. I have yet to try it again with the rear motor but if in fact if it does sputter then I am 100% correct.

However if it does in fact work I am still partly or 50% CORRECT as when I hooked the self learning wire to the 35 amp Greentime controller it worked the very first time.

So if it does work later tonight then it may not be Vodoo but a cheap faulty circuit as the controller was only $11. That is about as cheap as you can get. I wont run it either way as do not like calling a cab when I am miles away from home due to an e bike failure.

In fact I threw out a $12 sensorless brushless controller I tried.

https://prnt.sc/116uq73

That right there is an example of a 100% non functional electronic unit. It really does not get more simple than that, Two power wires and 3 sensor wires. Completely dead on arrival. No signs of life at all.

Those are very similar to brush controllers that are variable from 10 to 60V and rated at 2,000W. I ordered like half a dozen several years back and work with a speed control knob. Two out of 5 or 6 failed as soon as I turned them on and never worked after that.

So SUNDER you may want to re think that statement as you are not getting even close to enough information to state that.

I really am sorry 99t4 quit and Backlight is probably really disgusted with me and many members here think I am stubborn and pig headed which I am but I am not always wrong. Sometimes it takes me a long time to figure stuff out but in the long run I most often do figure stuff out but get very little credit.

1.) I have taken brush motors apart more than 6 times and soldered wires and got all the brush in assembly back together.

2.) I have built multiple chain drives front and back and run them for miles.

3.) I took the DD hub motor apart , soldered the wires , put it back together and tested it. When The cover bolts that were broken and the motor structurally failed I fixed that as well as another sensor wire. It works perfect now.

4.) I have successfully installed two geared hub kits as well as two DD kits and re hooked them up several times and they work.

5.) I finally got the Bafang motors working. It was my hardest task but was 100% the fault of components. NOT my wiring hook ups. It was components NOT being compatible as well as cheap faulty components.

I wish to move on. My next goal is converting chain drives to quiet efficient and reliable belt drive systems. I am not talking about complicated belt drive builds from scratch here that require a special frame. I am talking about replacing exactly 3 chain drive components.

1.) The motor sprocket with a belt pully wheel.

2.) The chain with a T belt.

3.) The wheel sprocket with the correct size belt wheel for proper gear reduction.


Thanks.

LC. out.
Attachments
download (11).png
download (11).png (170.42 KiB) Viewed 279 times
I build e bikes. There not always pretty or practical but sometimes they work, at least for awhile. Immortality is not a dream but the future of our evolution. We were given the tools to forge our own destiny. We were created in gods image and shall evolve to live forever.

markz   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 12751
Joined: Jan 09 2014 11:38pm
Location: Alberta Canada

Re: new eZip motor

Post by markz » Apr 07 2021 7:38pm

Who knows
But perhaps you have the magic
Besides all that, why does one proceed to buy from random sellers at the cheapest possible price. Its just human nature, more so on pogey.
Lyen controllers are not cheap, but they are generic so they come at an average price, but the price premium is that they have been upgraded, beefier traces and probably CA hookup added along with custom programmable firmware. The generic name does not come to mind, but a quick search reveals, Xiechang. The chip inside is the Infineon is what some people call the controller, but you dont call a Toyota a Bosch just because its got a Bosch part inside. Lyen's are all sensored, I do believe. No I wont check. I buy sensorless and have been buying generic sensorless from greentime evfitting on aliexpress. Because I have opened them up, I have played with the resistor network for lvc, soldered onto the shunts and I know they last when properly handled and ridden. The prices are reasonable, shipping didnt take long, shipping costs were reasonable as well. The only thing I'd like to try next is a controller with FOC, sinewave and regen.
latecurtis wrote:
Apr 07 2021 6:36pm
-

User avatar
latecurtis   1.21 GW

1.21 GW
Posts: 3724
Joined: Jan 18 2014 1:53pm
Location: central Ohio

Re: new eZip motor

Post by latecurtis » Apr 07 2021 8:14pm

YES.

What you just posted makes a lot of sense to me.

I might just run the other Bafang sensoeless with one of the Greentime controllers just to see how it works.

And to prove weather SUNDER is right or wrong about sensorless controllers.

However if he is right I am only out a $30 controller or $40 hub motor worse case

But is he is wrong I hope he takes it well.

I pissed off 99T and he quit posting and doubt we will hear from Backlight again. But I did learn from him. If someone in the future comes to me with a motor with a 9 pin connecter and cant make it work that person could very well be like I was and not want to cut the plug off and want to make it work with a controller. That is when I can go back to this post and find that flow chart. I just chose the easy way out and cut the plug off. I am not saying I was right. I am saying it was my way.

I want to say I consider SUNDER a friend. He sent me a $280 hub motor. I don't care who is wrong or right as much as I care about having a friend. Even if it is a long distance friend I probably will never meet.

I just have a scientific mind. When I was 5 years old back then Pluto was considered a planet and I had 9 planets on a chalk board and knew the speed of light and by the time I turned 10 read about every how and why book published. They were really popular scientific books for kids back in the 70s and early 80s.

I have a scientific mind which naturally prevents me from being religious. The term Blind Faith basically is the total opposite way that I think. It is just how I am wired. It is why I am so stubborn and pig headed. I simply can not just accept things. I have to dissect everything down to the atoms and quarks if possible.

I struggled with math and programming in college and am under graduate. However watch science channels like Patron , NOVA and all sorts of you tube channels. I am not the brightest star in the sky but far from the dimmest either.

I am like the saying that came from the US state MO. Yea not looking that up but the statement is "show me" I require absolute proof. I simply find it very difficult to believe something without proof. I have to experiment and trial an error is the path I usually take.

I still gather useful information from this forum though. Members input is not always for nothing. Like gear reduction. I had no clue and burned out my first e bike motor. Because of DA. and other members posting I now have that knowledge and have not burned a motor out since then.

Battery technology is another. I hated 4mm bullets and chopped off XT60 plugs. Today I am switching to XT60 plugs for upgrades on all my bikes. I had no clue about lithium battery's. How to hook up or charge. Now I am building lithium packs. I just finished the 3rd 1S - 6P pack. I have 3 now all charged to about 4V. When I get to 6 I will wire them in series and hook up balance plugs and balance charge at 6S. I will repeat that for a second 6S and I can wire in series for 12S and add 1S - 6P for 13S- 6p easily. So I do learn from this forum.

All efforts on members part are not in vain. That is a perfect example. I just choose to do it my way and NOT solder any more because I hate soldering. I have successfully soldered and have small 18650 packs built now that I soldered. But each time I solder I seem to get different results. I am not consistent but most important I am heating up the cells due to my inefficient and inadequate soldering skills so would rather do it my way.

Thanks.

LC. out.
Attachments
IMG_0124.JPG
IMG_0124.JPG (4.22 MiB) Viewed 250 times
I build e bikes. There not always pretty or practical but sometimes they work, at least for awhile. Immortality is not a dream but the future of our evolution. We were given the tools to forge our own destiny. We were created in gods image and shall evolve to live forever.

markz   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 12751
Joined: Jan 09 2014 11:38pm
Location: Alberta Canada

Re: new eZip motor

Post by markz » Apr 07 2021 8:50pm

Soldering does take skill but theres no magic to it, only thing is it just takes practice and a little bit of technique.
But you need the right tools, not the cheapest tools you can find, and not the cheapest solder neither. Adjusting the soldering iron to the right temperature for the work to do. Like I said before the Princess Auto 60W iron (non adjustable temp) has never let me down. I rarely clean the tip properly, or used proper soldering iron tip care. The only main thing I have done with that iron is make absolutely sure I used fresh solder on a joint, so I'd literally scrap the old solder off from the metal base corners of the iron holder, not using a moist sponge ever. But thats a $5 iron on sale, $18 reg price. But if I were using a more expensive iron, I'd study up on the proper iron care and follow. Hakko for example is $150, and I seriously thought about buying it but thankfully I never did.



11.jpeg
11.jpeg (493.61 KiB) Viewed 239 times

User avatar
latecurtis   1.21 GW

1.21 GW
Posts: 3724
Joined: Jan 18 2014 1:53pm
Location: central Ohio

Re: new eZip motor

Post by latecurtis » Apr 08 2021 12:26am

As the Hub Motor Turns and the LiPo Fire Burns. Batteries for the 3 kilowatt brushless motor and 45 mph.
download (12).png
download (12).png (343.34 KiB) Viewed 227 times
Again I did not take DAs advice as he recently posted two lithium ion packs from battery hookup.

But I did order batteries from battery hookup. LIFEPO4 batteries. I would not even looked up battery hookup though if DA did not post those links.

The fact they are brand new overstock and military grade and thoroughly tested is what sold me. After that I just needed to figure out how many would be needed for 3 kilowatts which was fairly easy.

16S - 5P so I ordered five boxes of 16 cells.

3.7V full charge * 16 = 59.2V

each cell is rated at 12 amp continues discharge so 5* 12 = 60

59.2 * 60A = 3,552 watts.

Then I looked up the difference in saftey comparing Lithium ion to LIFEPO4 and found this.
download (13).png
download (13).png (16.05 KiB) Viewed 227 times
download (14).png
download (14).png (64.26 KiB) Viewed 227 times
I will be building 1S - 5P LIFEPO4 packs as soon as I get them instead of 1S - 6P - 18650 packs. I have way over 100 - 18650 cells so will still build them the same way I have been but will be on hold / pause once I get the LIPO4 and build the 16S - 5P LIFEPO4 pack.

I will be ordering a 16S LIFEPO4 BMS and charger. I am not charging them at 6S with my LiPo charger. I can do all that with the 18650 packs. I want a professional built 3+ kilowatt LIFEPO4 pack.

4/8/21 - 3"39 AM.

I re tested the front Bafang motor on the DimondBack and then put it on the front of the Currie and tested it again twice. I then hooked the motor wires back up to the Currie and reinstalled that controller. All the wiring was hooked up. I just have not rode it since I fixed the chain that broke.

All the wires are zip tied and taped out of the way of snags and tested the rear chain drive also. It is ready to go down stairs and a test drive tomorrow. If the Bafang performs well under load I will order two more Bafang motors. It may be a long time before ordering any more motors. I am not waiting to test the other Bafang under load. I have no throttle. I used the last three solderless connecters to hook up the thumb throttle for the Bafang motor on the front of the Currie.

Thanks.

4/8/21 - 8:29 AM.

LC. out.
download (2).png
download (2).png (117.05 KiB) Viewed 208 times

Yea. 18650 cells are a joke.

I should cancel the LIFEPO4s but they take up less space than the LTOs so worth keeping.

I need to get rid of / pass on my lithium ion packs. Also should get rid of most of my 18650 cells.

I just spent $800+ on batteries from battery hookup. But will last a lot longer than I will probably live. Unless I use them for something other than an e bike. Mabye the FX - 75 - 5 motor. :twisted:

Thanks.

LC. out.
I build e bikes. There not always pretty or practical but sometimes they work, at least for awhile. Immortality is not a dream but the future of our evolution. We were given the tools to forge our own destiny. We were created in gods image and shall evolve to live forever.

User avatar
DrkAngel   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 5508
Joined: Dec 15 2010 11:14am
Location: Upstate-Western-Southern Tier NY. USA

Re: new eZip motor

Post by DrkAngel » Apr 08 2021 1:27pm

Hmm ... I would just worry about finding an LTO capable charger, not to even mention the availability of any LTO balance charger?
A little learning is a dangerous thing;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
There, shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely, sobers us again.

I enjoy enlightening ... and enlivening the spirit of the innovators.

New & Improved - Acronym Definitions

Index - Homemade Battery Packs - Updated - December 2019

EBike Toolbox - Bargains! $

Endless Sphere Wiki - Lost?

User avatar
latecurtis   1.21 GW

1.21 GW
Posts: 3724
Joined: Jan 18 2014 1:53pm
Location: central Ohio

Re: new eZip motor

Post by latecurtis » Apr 08 2021 5:38pm

Hmm ... I would just worry about finding an LTO capable charger, not to even mention the availability of any LTO balance charger?
Yea.

I see what you are talking about.

Not a lot of choices.

Maybe we can work out a deal.

I have a lot of 18650 cells not even extracted. I can send you money and those if you can build me something. It does not have to be 1,000 watts. I do not need to charge a lot of amps even though they are capable of charging 2,000 watts or more. Since I can charge over night it can be > 250W and < 500W. Whatever is affordable. I would blow circuits here and live in apartment and do not have access to a fuse box so basically 300W would work.

I think that most of those are 3.5V on average or 3.65 when extracted. I brought at least 100 cells from NY, Some of those are low voltage and should recycle those as well as the old LiPos DAN sent way back about 7 years ago. They still work but would be difficult to ship them to someone as the laws on shipping LiPo have changed and they are way past 80%. Probably only 50% of their rated capacity.

I only plan on keeping enough 18650 cells to finish the pack I started building for the Bafang motors. I have the 16 amp BMS but might just build a 6S - 6P and a 4S - 6P that I can charge with my LiPo chargers.

I will keep on searching. I see very expensive LTO chargers out there well over $300 that would probably blow a fuse here.

There is a single cell unit but the 12S and 24S are expensive.

I was thinking 24S but could do 12S and just charge 12 at a time. I could do 6S if they are cheap but would need to split 24 into 4 packs. then parallel charge all 4 at 6S. Please let me know.

I am not sure if you are knowledgeable about 3D printers DA. But really would like one but since I spent $800 on batteries my budget for that is a lot lower now. Not sure if I can get a decent one for less than $300.

I would LOVE to print the cell holders for the LIFEPO4s I ordered as well as the LTOs. But LTOs are very large so may have to build that out of wood unless I can build a LTO cell holder that is in small sections and bolts togeather.

Any ideas you have will be appreciated.

LIFEPO4 and LTO are brand new to me but have done a substantial amount of research on both battery chemistries. It is why I ordered them. I may need to order more of the LIFEPO4s but 60V of LTO should last a lot longer than I will. That is why I spent that much.

OK.

Here is a good one but 240V. Not sure if there is an adapter. I need 110V. Also was thinking about other voltage besides 60V.

8 * 2.7 = 21.6V. That is basically useless for e bikes but 16S = 43.2V. Any 36 to 48V variable controller could work. The controller for the 1,000 DD hub motor as well as the controller for the 1,800W brushless motor could run that voltage.

Therefore I am looking at splitting the LTOs into three 8S packs for charging and then have the option of running two or all three in series. That would make the most sense.

One thing I do know is I will need to find a way to lock them to the bike or will have to carry them in a back pack as they are $600. That is more than most of my e bikes are worth.

Basically I have a lot of questions.

1. will 24S of LTOs run the FX - 75 - 5 motor ?

2. Is there an adapter for LTOs that will work with EV charging stations. I saw one downtown on Market street here in Canton OH.

If I could charge up in 10 or 15 minutes I could ride an e bike to upstate NY which is 500 miles away. :mrgreen:

Not sure about the FX - 75 - 5 motor but a reliable e bike could make the trip. Like the 26" dual suspension if I can ever convert the front chain to a belt drive. That is the top of my priority list. The Currie could be converted also but a brand new chain would be simpler. It broke a couple weeks ago but I had a master link and fixed it but not sure if a new chain would be a better idea.

Sorry but this post is a long one. I just have a lot going on. It rained all day so did not get to test the Bafang on the front of the Currie yet. If I order two more Bafangs it will be it for motors for a while. The guy I was giving a Bafang motor to is in Florida. I wanted one for the front of the DimondBack so I can run two with one throttle. I ordered a throttle when I ordered both of those Greentime controllers.

I also wanted a Bafang on the front of the Haro V3 that is getting the 3 killowatt brushless chain drive motor on the back. Those high power brushless chain drives are like bucking broncos unless I get a really expensive programable controller. I would rather run a Bafang solo for < 20 mph in the city. I may need to order four more Bafang motors.

Thanks.

LC. out.
Attachments
IMG_0125.JPG
IMG_0125.JPG (4.2 MiB) Viewed 186 times
download (15).png
download (15).png (191.89 KiB) Viewed 182 times
I build e bikes. There not always pretty or practical but sometimes they work, at least for awhile. Immortality is not a dream but the future of our evolution. We were given the tools to forge our own destiny. We were created in gods image and shall evolve to live forever.

User avatar
DrkAngel   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 5508
Joined: Dec 15 2010 11:14am
Location: Upstate-Western-Southern Tier NY. USA

Re: new eZip motor

Post by DrkAngel » Apr 08 2021 7:44pm

.
...
12s 2A LTO charger

12 x 2.8V = 33.6V
same as
8 x 4.2V =33.6V
A little learning is a dangerous thing;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
There, shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely, sobers us again.

I enjoy enlightening ... and enlivening the spirit of the innovators.

New & Improved - Acronym Definitions

Index - Homemade Battery Packs - Updated - December 2019

EBike Toolbox - Bargains! $

Endless Sphere Wiki - Lost?

markz   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 12751
Joined: Jan 09 2014 11:38pm
Location: Alberta Canada

Re: new eZip motor

Post by markz » Apr 08 2021 8:04pm

I like more charge amps, but I also look at the C-rate for charging.
My laptop chargers were 5S (19V) in reality 20.50V so 0.50V off max charge, but at 8A. To add to that I had two batteries both 5S that I put in series with a home made XT90 series harness so I could disconnect 10S into 2x5S, and use 2 chargers to help speed up the total charge time. Split battery pack is an option.

I looked into a more powerful laptop charger which could do 14 or 15A at 20.50V, and occasionally I'd run into a good deal for those chargers. Those chargers were bigger, and I like to carry around my chargers as my battery doesnt have enough total Wh. I didnt mind carrying around 2 laptop chargers with their ends snipped off. Interestingly the noise interference casement around the cable was the ground wire. Peel that off, twist it a certain way to undo it properly, then twist the strands together to solder, and figure how much slack you want coming off the XT90.

After that I purchased the Grintech charger, it was not cheap but I saved a bit when I bought a battery from them.

I'd want to be able to ride 40 miles in total, at 52V thats 2.2kw which is 43Ah. Then I wouldnt need to carry around a charger. But that'd be a pretty large battery. Satiator at 8A full blast, that'd still take 5.5hrs. But I wouldnt want to carry around that Satiator charger.

User avatar
DrkAngel   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 5508
Joined: Dec 15 2010 11:14am
Location: Upstate-Western-Southern Tier NY. USA

Re: new eZip motor

Post by DrkAngel » Apr 08 2021 8:34pm

Parallel 33.6V 2A charger with a MeanWell type s-350-48 power supply ( simple resister mod or potentiometer upgrade allows 10A 33.5V charge supplement ) add directional diode to prevent charger bleed into PS.
Allows 12A charge with actual 2A charger taking over completely as full charge is neared.

S-350-48 power supply, ~$40, is rated for 7.3A but can surge 135% before amp regulation, (~10A), lowering voltage to 33.5V keeps output within the rated 350w = 335w.
Last edited by DrkAngel on Apr 09 2021 7:39am, edited 1 time in total.
A little learning is a dangerous thing;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
There, shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely, sobers us again.

I enjoy enlightening ... and enlivening the spirit of the innovators.

New & Improved - Acronym Definitions

Index - Homemade Battery Packs - Updated - December 2019

EBike Toolbox - Bargains! $

Endless Sphere Wiki - Lost?

markz   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 12751
Joined: Jan 09 2014 11:38pm
Location: Alberta Canada

Re: new eZip motor

Post by markz » Apr 08 2021 10:45pm

Those high power brushless chain drives are like bucking broncos unless I get a really expensive programable controller.
Even with a cheap generic controller the big power motors are pretty good, so not sure where you get the bucking bronco idea from. Its better to have a single powerful hub motor then a two wimpier motors, even if you find cheap motors to use for 2wd. The only way I'd go 2wd is if I was riding a lot of loose sand or mud, maybe river rocks. All those cases would also need fat tires.

User avatar
latecurtis   1.21 GW

1.21 GW
Posts: 3724
Joined: Jan 18 2014 1:53pm
Location: central Ohio

Re: new eZip motor

Post by latecurtis » Apr 08 2021 11:02pm

Even with a cheap generic controller the big power motors are pretty good, so not sure where you get the bucking bronco idea from. Its better to have a single powerful hub motor then a two wimpier motors, even if you find cheap motors to use for 2wd. The only way I'd go 2wd is if I was riding a lot of loose sand or mud, maybe river rocks. All those cases would also need fat tires.
I was talking about the 1,800W brushless chain drive with the 1,500W brushless controller. I really am not sure about that 13S - 7P lithium ion pack I got. I used it with the Currie as well as the 1,800W brushless motor and neither will do 30 mph. Not sure why but they both have good acceleration up to 20 to 22 mph. especially the 1,800W brushless motor but I think there is a cutoff limit on the BMS with the 13S - 7P as I doubt either bike can get to 30 mph. I am using the speedo on my android phone in google maps navigator. Both bikes are geared for 30 mph or a little more.
12 x 2.8V = 33.6V
same as
8 x 4.2V =33.6V
OK .

Doing the math then 2.8 * 9 = 25.2V

6* 4.2 = 25.2V

4 * 4.2 = 16.8V

6* 2.8 = 16.8V.

I have two 6S LiPo chargers. One is 400W and the other is 200W.

I just need two 9S LTO BMSs and one 6S LTO BMS.

Also 18S LTO is the same as 12S Lithium ion or LiPo.

I need to look for high quality BMSs.

I neeed a lot of amps both charge and discharge as my LiPo chargers will work perfect for over night or 6 to 8 hour charging but out on the road when I am going hundreds of miles I will want a 15 to 20 minute charge every 40 to 50 miles. Not sure but 18 Ah should go 40 miles right ?

Of course on a trip like that I will hit a motel at least one night so can charge every battery I got but when they all discharge then the 18 AH LTOs will need a 15 to 20 min charge and EV charging stations are 240V so will need a AC outlet and 500 amp charger then I guess.

Not even sure if that setup is workable. (bottom pic) Not sure what the max. charging current is. I did not read the specs yet

I do know however to get 500 amps @ 60V DC then 250 amps is required at 120V AC right ? I am just looking at charging options out on the road. At home I am fine with my LiPo chargers as long as I can get the 9S and 6S LTO BMSs.

Please let me know.

My wife don't know I spent $800 on batteries yet. If she finds out shit will defiantly hit the fan. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Thanks.

LC. out.
Attachments
LTO charge.png
LTO charge.png (28.39 KiB) Viewed 142 times
I build e bikes. There not always pretty or practical but sometimes they work, at least for awhile. Immortality is not a dream but the future of our evolution. We were given the tools to forge our own destiny. We were created in gods image and shall evolve to live forever.

markz   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 12751
Joined: Jan 09 2014 11:38pm
Location: Alberta Canada

Re: new eZip motor

Post by markz » Apr 09 2021 12:09am

Yeah sorry, you got a lot going on. 2wd bafang hub motors and the chain motors.

Good luck with that, Besttech Power would fit high quality but some have said their not.
I need to look for high quality BMSs
I dont know if you can do 15-20 minute charge every 40-50 miles on a simple 115V 10A outlet. Let me spit some maths at choo.
20wh/mile = 800-1kwh, 20Ah battery with lots of pedaling. Charge rate would need to be pretty darn high for 30 minutes. 40A charge rate. Pushing the limits for a 110V 10A outlet. I assume your using LTO's for the fast charge rate? Be like 2C. For standard fare, 0.5C so 10A charge for 20Ah battery. 40A charge rate for a charger is expensive. But do look intoit, I mean my #'s could be wrong. Just winging it here.
I neeed a lot of amps both charge and discharge as my LiPo chargers will work perfect for over night or 6 to 8 hour charging but out on the road when I am going hundreds of miles I will want a 15 to 20 minute charge every 40 to 50 miles. Not sure but 18 Ah should go 40 miles right ?

Yeah a motorcycle would be better, but the fun is in the travel. Have you seen Justins video on biking 2400 miles across Canada. I can't imagine how many close calls he's had or is willing to share. Because the drivers drive towards what they see, so if they are fixated on a bicyclist on the side of a highway, guess where they will be turning their steering wheel towards.
Of course on a trip like that I will hit a motel at least one night so can charge every battery I got but when they all discharge then the 18 AH LTOs will need a 15 to 20 min charge and EV charging stations are 240V so will need a AC outlet and 500 amp charger then I guess.
18650-25R's are 25A discharge, so you'd need 20P, LifePO4's can probably get 50A or 75A in larger sized 26650 A123, then theres the prismatic's (hard cased dvd disc type). Cheap Lipo chargers dont give enough amps, always to slow to charge.
I do know however to get 500 amps @ 60V DC then 250 amps is required at 120V AC right ? I am just looking at charging options out on the road. At home I am fine with my LiPo chargers as long as I can get the 9S and 6S LTO BMSs.

Sounds like an honest relationship you got going on there. :thumb: :wink:
My wife don't know I spent $800 on batteries yet. If she finds out shit will defiantly hit the fan.
Oh I did
Please let me know.

User avatar
latecurtis   1.21 GW

1.21 GW
Posts: 3724
Joined: Jan 18 2014 1:53pm
Location: central Ohio

Re: new eZip motor

Post by latecurtis » Apr 09 2021 4:12am

Yea.

I just like the way DA. did the math.

Basically I can run 18S LTO which = 12S LiPo or Lion on at least 4 bikes but what to do with the 6S - LTO as only need 24S LTO for the 3 killowatt brushless chain drive. I might not ride that a lot. Any battery sitting on a shelf aint good I dont care if it has a million charge cycles.

2.8 *6 = 16.8 + 4.2 * 6 = 42. That is very interesting since I have two 10S Lithium ion chargers that charge at 42V. :D

I should be able to hook up 6 Lithium titinate batteries to six lithium ion 18650 cells and achieve 10S. Obviouslly I will need two BMSs. One for 6S - LTO. and 1 for 6S LiPo or Lion.

Please let me know as that combination would be super awsome.

I am not going to spend the big money or worry about super fast charging. I will go the other way and just build a ton of batteries. My goal is 250 miles and a motel , 12 pack and 10 hours time out and then another 250 miles so a minimum of 14 hours downtime will allow me to re charge all batteries.

You do realize it as hypothetical as I am a lazy alcoholic. I am lucky if I make Wall-Mart once a week. The grogery store 5 blocks away and the beer store 4 or 5 times a week.

I don't do much.

Basically the LTOs may end up someday with my grand children if my son Jessie has them. But as long as I have the LTOs I can use them. Not sure if I can get 10S running 6S LTO in series with LIFEPO4 as not felling like calculating it but I am looking to phase out 18650 cells as well as LiPo.

I am changing with the times and LIFEPO4 and LTO are the best as well as safest. It is why I spent $800 on batteries.

When my wife finds out I am defiantly in the dog house. :lol: :lol:



Thanks.

LC. out.
I build e bikes. There not always pretty or practical but sometimes they work, at least for awhile. Immortality is not a dream but the future of our evolution. We were given the tools to forge our own destiny. We were created in gods image and shall evolve to live forever.

User avatar
DrkAngel   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 5508
Joined: Dec 15 2010 11:14am
Location: Upstate-Western-Southern Tier NY. USA

Re: new eZip motor

Post by DrkAngel » Apr 09 2021 6:12am

I demonstrated 33.6 12A charging (12s) ...

If that is too complex, here is (24s) 67.2V 10A for $51.43
24s x 2.8V = 67.2V
Last edited by DrkAngel on Apr 09 2021 5:18pm, edited 3 times in total.
A little learning is a dangerous thing;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
There, shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely, sobers us again.

I enjoy enlightening ... and enlivening the spirit of the innovators.

New & Improved - Acronym Definitions

Index - Homemade Battery Packs - Updated - December 2019

EBike Toolbox - Bargains! $

Endless Sphere Wiki - Lost?

User avatar
DrkAngel   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 5508
Joined: Dec 15 2010 11:14am
Location: Upstate-Western-Southern Tier NY. USA

Re: new eZip motor

Post by DrkAngel » Apr 09 2021 6:43am

67.2V x 18Ah = 1209wh (12¢ fillup @10¢/kwh)
1209wh ÷ 110VAC = 11A
110VAC 12A minimum for 1 hour charge (with high efficiency charger)
20A 110VAC outlet max capable of 36 minute charge (67.2V 25A charger = potential maximum as only item on good clean circuit)
20A 220VAC for 18 minute charge (67.2V 50A charger = theoretical maximum)

note - not factored is the current drop as battery approaches "full"= longer to "top off" battery.
Last edited by DrkAngel on Apr 09 2021 10:03am, edited 2 times in total.
A little learning is a dangerous thing;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
There, shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely, sobers us again.

I enjoy enlightening ... and enlivening the spirit of the innovators.

New & Improved - Acronym Definitions

Index - Homemade Battery Packs - Updated - December 2019

EBike Toolbox - Bargains! $

Endless Sphere Wiki - Lost?

User avatar
DrkAngel   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 5508
Joined: Dec 15 2010 11:14am
Location: Upstate-Western-Southern Tier NY. USA

Re: new eZip motor

Post by DrkAngel » Apr 09 2021 7:10am

.
...
NO!!! ... you do not run different battery technologies in series!

Although it is funny, and appropriate, in a certain twisted way ...

"What is the difference between defiantly and definitely?

Definitely and defiantly are both adverbs, but trust us: the similarities end there. You use definitely when you want to describe something clearly, unequivocally, or without a doubt. You use defiantly to describe something or someone that's challenging or brazenly resistant to something."
A little learning is a dangerous thing;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
There, shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely, sobers us again.

I enjoy enlightening ... and enlivening the spirit of the innovators.

New & Improved - Acronym Definitions

Index - Homemade Battery Packs - Updated - December 2019

EBike Toolbox - Bargains! $

Endless Sphere Wiki - Lost?

User avatar
latecurtis   1.21 GW

1.21 GW
Posts: 3724
Joined: Jan 18 2014 1:53pm
Location: central Ohio

Re: new eZip motor

Post by latecurtis » Apr 09 2021 5:29pm

I only have one controller that can run 60V.

Six e bikes but one 60V controller so should run the LTOs at 18S.

However my e bikeling geared hub motors as well as the Bafang motors and the 1,000 watt chain drive on the front of the 26" dual suspension are all limited to 36V.

If I can get two 9S BMSs and one 6S BMS I could run those six in series with 9 for 15S or 42V. I should be able to use any of my 10S Lithium chargers then right ?

So then I will be able to run any of my e bikes as can run at 36V , 48V and 60V.

The only thing is when running at 18S the other six will be full so will need to re charge the 18 before I can run at 15S.

That works both ways as when I run at 15S I will need to charge at 15S before I can run at 18S.

However when I want to run at 60V or 24S I will need that charger you posted to charge them at 67V otherwise I will only be able to charge 18 and the other six I wont be able to charge.

SO I will need three chargers.

Actually if my 42V chargers are good for 15S LTOs then I will need two chargers. The one you posted and one for 18S LTO.

I will go ahead and order the 67V charger then. If 18S LTO = 12S Lithium ion I should look for a 10 amp 12S lithium charger as well then.


Please let me know.

Thanks.

LC. out.
I build e bikes. There not always pretty or practical but sometimes they work, at least for awhile. Immortality is not a dream but the future of our evolution. We were given the tools to forge our own destiny. We were created in gods image and shall evolve to live forever.

markz   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 12751
Joined: Jan 09 2014 11:38pm
Location: Alberta Canada

Re: new eZip motor

Post by markz » Apr 09 2021 8:06pm

Ah yes, the wonders of the english language. Though I did mess up that sentence. And that last one too. Definitely so. :wink: Not Defiantly so :lol:
Definitely and defiantly are both adverbs, but trust us: the similarities end there. You use definitely when you want to describe something clearly, unequivocally, or without a doubt. You use defiantly to describe something or someone that's challenging or brazenly resistant to something."

Post Reply