600cc ebike. What?

Hello awesome community, I have recently got a newer model Yamaha 600 rolling chassis with the intention of electrifying it. Since wheels, brakes and suspension are 99.9% I'd like to use them with minimal to no modification. For that reason, I'd like a mid drive setup. But wait, is this even feasible? I would turn it into an straight ebike (as opposed to an emotorcycle) amongst other considerations because of budget constraints. To state the obvious, I bit off more than I can chew and you are my only hope of bringing this project to fruition. Also, if there is anyone local who would be interested in working in this project please let me know. Any input, greatly appreciated.

The motor was a 'stressed member' and half of what accounted for a frame. I'd never try to use a 'stressed member' motorcycle without the 'stressed member'. People do all kinds of foolish things with frames here on E-S. One guy made a frame with steel from a bed headboard. It suddenly failed and he ended up with a broken collarbone. He quit coming back to E-S. Don't be one of those guys.

instead of immediately criticizing and assuming, how about offering some constructive ideas and help him with his build if you choose to post at all.

BarkMau - nice looking bike! although the way gogo approached the "stressed member" issue was rather obnoxious (at least in my opinion) he is right - that you need to resolve this issue. it wouldn't be very difficult to either weld or bolt on a subframe that would resume the role of the engine as a stressed member of the frame. i myself am working on a similar build. its an older bike though - 94 kawasaki ex250. so probably quite a bit smaller/lightweight than yours.



im using johnincr's hubmonster motor that will hopefully (after some modifications) be able to reach 40kw peaks - which is 53hp (16hp more than the stock ICE engine!)

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=46898

although that motor might work for you as well you might want more power if you are used to riding 600cc

a high powered e motorcycle build can get expensive...but to see amazing results check out jonescg's build for inspiration



http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=29916&start=775

there are alot of motorcycle conversions on that you should check out on http://www.evalbum.com/

many people run the etek style (Mars or now 'Motenergy') motors. these are fairly affordable setups and can still deliver a fair amount of power (depending on the model - some can do 30kw+ peaks)

Ripperton is one example of a Motenergy motor (or rather *motors* now haha)





http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/ripperton-electric-track-bike-41173.html

Thanks for chiming in guys, all criticism is well taken. I'm aware of the role the engine plays in bringing the frame together. If reinforcing/completing it isn't an option, I don't see why can't the whole frame be replaced. Maybe in the vein of drunkskunk's monster bike (gotta love that one!). I feel the need to clarify here: As much as I'd like to build a high power motorcycle (rode a KZ 1000cc back in the day), I don't have the means to do so now and so it would be day dreaming for me. Instead, I'm trying to find advice regarding a mid drive system that would turn this into a very solid and stable bicycle. I could live with 35mph.

It will require something in your motor mount to complete the triangle. My first glance had me thinking how could that frame be strong enough.

I think you are smart enough not to get the metal for that addition from a bed frame.

ok, I'll bite.

The stressed member can be replaced with something as simple as a cable from Home Depot. The downtube that is missing in this instance is under tension, so a cable would be an easy solution, not a big problem to be blown out of proportion in relation to the other problems like pedaling. :lol:

Obviously, you are just strapping pedals on a motorcycle and calling it an ebike, it's been done before! Do you have a welder? If not, go down to the local Harbor freight and get this:



http://www.harborfreight.com/90-amp-flux-wire-welder-61849.html

Next, go to some yard sales and buy at least one Walmart steel frame bike. All you need is the Bottom Bracket. Search up Atomic Zombie, he will tell you how to chop up the frame for your purposes. Armed with a welder, a grinder, a drill and some scrap metal, you can build this. You could also do some lightening on that frame and swingarm. Depending on your final weight, the suspension will be terrible unless you weight 300#'s!

I would aim for at least 2000 watts of power to reach your 35 mph goal if you don't load it up with lead. What is your budget?

BarkMau said:

I would turn it into an straight ebike (as opposed to an emotorcycle) amongst other considerations because of budget constraints.

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Hi BarkMau,

Bad news, I'm afraid. If you use an existing frame that has been assigned a VIN, you can not convert it to an (unlicenced/cheap) ebike. If you get stopped by the Cops, that will be a big fine for driving an unlicensed/uninsured motorcycle.

You may be able to reuse the forks, swingarm, wheels and tires, but it's unlikely to become a cheap/easy build, especially if you don't yet have the skills/equipment to fabricate your own frame. And again the result is never going to look like an ebike, so expect continuous hassles from da Fuzz... :lol:

But what are your goals, may i ask? How fast? How far? How much peddling? Maybe you can sell these parts, and use the proceeds toward the purchase of a 1st ebike that's within your budget/abilities, and use that for transportation while you work on your dream bike?

Best of luck with your projects!

Cheers,
Holocene

Bad news first:

Depending on your local laws, Holocene might be right. You'd have to check into that.

Good news:

Even if that's true, you could probably chop up the frame for the important bits and weld a good frame together between them.


More bad news: Everything on that bike is way heavier than on a bicycle-class vehicle, and thus is going to take a whole lot more power to accelerate it up to speed within the same time as it would for a lighter vehicle.

Good news: if you don't care how quickly you get up to speed, you could still do it....



I have most of the same kinds of bits including frame from an 80's Suzuki dirt bike, and have considered (planned, even) using them in a newer version of CrazyBike2, but to do it I'd have to cut the headtube off the Suzuki frame so I can weld it up to my own frame, to use those forks. The rear suspension is easier, cuz I can make my own (lighter) swingarm and pivot, and still use the better Suzuki shock. I can also probalby use the heavy-duty Suzuki wheel hubs and disc brakes, and lace them into much lighter moped-class wheels.

But it will still weigh maybe twice what Crazybike2 does, without the battery/etc, and that's a lot already. Once I add the rest and then myself, it'd probably weigh (at a guess) 400-450lbs, instead of 300-320lbs or so that CB2 and I do. So instead of the 2000-2500W to acclerate quickly (4-5 seconds to 20MPH), it'll take more like 3000-4000W to do it, and be that much harder on the battery, controller, and motor.

It'll also take more braking power, but that won't be an issue becuase it'd be using hte dirtbike disc brakes, and would probalby have much better stopping power than CB2 does right now. :lol:


So your project is certainly possible.

You will want to check with your local laws about stuff with VINs on it, vs bicycle-class stuff, etc. Then decide if you want to cut the frame up to avoid issues with that if it turns out to be a problem, or keep everything intact and just more slowly build it into an actual motorcycle.


As for the missing stressed members, that's really easy to fix, even with just bolt-on triangulated frame section(s) across the bottom, or whatever. (bolt them to where the motor used to bolt on).

dogman said:

I think you are smart enough not to get the metal for that addition from a bed frame.

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:lol: Thanks man that means a lot especially coming from you. :lol:

etard said:

Depending on your final weight, the suspension will be terrible unless you weight 300#'s!

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This may be a very valid point that I had completely missed. Hopefully, the suspension is tunable and I don't have to make the whole thing heavier than it needs to be in order to compensate.

Holocene said:

I'm afraid. If you use an existing frame that has been assigned a VIN, you can not convert it to an (unlicenced/cheap) ebike. If you get stopped by the Cops, that will be a big fine for driving an unlicensed/uninsured motorcycle.

Click to expand...

afaik, the VIN number is on the head tube (only?). Wouldn't it be as "easy" as replacing it as well?
Your point about selling the parts to fund other projects is in my mind too. Who knows, it may end up in the for sale section..

amberwolf said:

Good news:

Even if that's true, you could probably chop up the frame for the important bits and weld a good frame together between them.


More bad news: Everything on that bike is way heavier than on a bicycle-class vehicle, and thus is going to take a whole lot more power to accelerate it up to speed within the same time as it would for a lighter vehicle.

Good news: if you don't care how quickly you get up to speed, you could still do it....



I have most of the same kinds of bits including frame from an 80's Suzuki dirt bike, and have considered (planned, even) using them in a newer version of CrazyBike2, but to do it I'd have to cut the headtube off the Suzuki frame so I can weld it up to my own frame, to use those forks. The rear suspension is easier, cuz I can make my own (lighter) swingarm and pivot, and still use the better Suzuki shock. I can also probalby use the heavy-duty Suzuki wheel hubs and disc brakes, and lace them into much lighter moped-class wheels.

But it will still weigh maybe twice what Crazybike2 does, without the battery/etc, and that's a lot already. Once I add the rest and then myself, it'd probably weigh (at a guess) 400-450lbs, instead of 300-320lbs or so that CB2 and I do. So instead of the 2000-2500W to acclerate quickly (4-5 seconds to 20MPH), it'll take more like 3000-4000W to do it, and be that much harder on the battery, controller, and motor.

It'll also take more braking power, but that won't be an issue becuase it'd be using hte dirtbike disc brakes, and would probalby have much better stopping power than CB2 does right now. :lol:


So your project is certainly possible.

You will want to check with your local laws about stuff with VINs on it, vs bicycle-class stuff, etc. Then decide if you want to cut the frame up to avoid issues with that if it turns out to be a problem, or keep everything intact and just more slowly build it into an actual motorcycle.


As for the missing stressed members, that's really easy to fix, even with just bolt-on triangulated frame section(s) across the bottom, or whatever. (bolt them to where the motor used to bolt on).

Click to expand...

That's certainly reassuring AW, I think my best bet would be making a new frame that works with the existing swing arm. Your 80cc dirt bike is surely more suited for the project. It is what I was looking for for a while, but then I run into this beauty and couldn't resist..
If we use the motorcycle brakes, no need to worry about stopping power as they would be close to overkill.

Q's in my head:
Is it too hard to make a head tube?
What kind of mid drive setup do I need?

Thanks guys!

BarkMau said:

I could live with 35mph.

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??? Good way to get yourself killed AFAIC. You need to be able to match, and at least slightly exceed traffic speeds. Otherwise you're just a slow moving target for someone paying more attention to their dummyphone than the road to squash you. Plus slow EVs are detract from the cause. Greater performance is a matter of simplicity, so don't settle. I'm not saying extreme speed, but just enough + enough to create greater safe riding space. If you're planning to tow big loads or have really steep terrain, that requires lower top speeds for less stress and better efficiency under heavy loads.

It's a great looking bike, though it does look heavy. Weight as-is? It is all steel, right? Weight is something to address, because I see kilos of metal bits that aren't needed, so hack them off. Don't worry to much about "the motor was a stress member" thing, because the battery pack will have to be supported and that structure can easily take care of that.

One thing I like is the long swing arm, and it looks like a lot of stuff can be cleared out between above the pegs and in front of the shock attachment to the swingarm. ON the swingarm close to the pivot is the place to go with the motor. Then you can minimize noise with a perfect chainline that doesn't change as the suspension moves. It also frees up more space for the battery, so you can get that form very aerodynamic, which is critical for efficiency at cruise. A sleeker smaller hole you must punch through the air should be one of your goals.

What's your budget? What kind of metal working capacity do you have?

John

edit- You should get the mods to move your thread to the emoto section.

John in CR said:

BarkMau said:

I could live with 35mph.

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??? Good way to get yourself killed AFAIC. You need to be able to match, and at least slightly exceed traffic speeds. Otherwise you're just a slow moving target for someone paying more attention to their dummyphone than the road to squash you. Plus slow EVs are detract from the cause. Greater performance is a matter of simplicity, so don't settle. I'm not saying extreme speed, but just enough + enough to create greater safe riding space. If you're planning to tow big loads or have really steep terrain, that requires lower top speeds for less stress and better efficiency under heavy loads.

It's a great looking bike, though it does look heavy. Weight as-is? It is all steel, right? Weight is something to address, because I see kilos of metal bits that aren't needed, so hack them off. Don't worry to much about "the motor was a stress member" thing, because the battery pack will have to be supported and that structure can easily take care of that.

One thing I like is the long swing arm, and it looks like a lot of stuff can be cleared out between above the pegs and in front of the shock attachment to the swingarm. ON the swingarm close to the pivot is the place to go with the motor. Then you can minimize noise with a perfect chainline that doesn't change as the suspension moves. It also frees up more space for the battery, so you can get that form very aerodynamic, which is critical for efficiency at cruise. A sleeker smaller hole you must punch through the air should be one of your goals.

What's your budget? What kind of metal working capacity do you have?

John

edit- You should get the mods to move your thread to the emoto section.

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Well afaik, speed is directly related to the $ize of the battpack and that's the limitation: $$
Budget: around $2000
Fabrication abilities: I think I can do everything but welding.
The frame is steel, indeed. Not sure how heavy it is. So you say motor on the swing arm, I see plenty of room there to fit it.

In the interests of full disclosure, I am full of opinions, even though I have never built an E-motorcycle. The thought of an E-moto is exciting to me, but I lack the time, space, and money to make one up right now. I think that putting a motor right where the stock transmission output was located will be problematic. However, if you are willing to go to the extra time and effort to add a jackshaft, I think it will make several other aspects of the build much easier.

I'm told that re-winding a motor is a total PITA (especially for someone new to all of this), so finding a motor with enough copper mass which has an appropriate Kv (RPMs per volt), may be difficult to source. Once you add the gearing abilities of two stages (motor to jackshaft, jackshaft to wheel) I am certain that your favorite motor choice will then be workable. (John in CR's motors are a good place to start your research, Lukes Deathbike used a Golden Motor)

I don't normally recommend LiPo for someone who is very new to E-conversions, but...I fear that cost-wise...there is no way to fit high current non-LiPo cells into your budget. All I can say is, do a LOT of homework before jumping into the LiPo pool. I would not consider any voltage less than 72-ish (18S with LiPo?), and if you are willing to give up some range from a battery pack of a set volume, maybe 96-ish volts (24S with LiPo?) will perform better, and may possibly allow fewer amps (good for motor/comtroller heat, plus good for battery longevity.

If you go for a custom voltage, it will be hard to get accurate advice on components. 18S and 24S are known systems here.

The battery pack should be very configurable, which will allow you some leeway in positioning the motor and jackshaft. The stock motor was a stressed member for a motorcycle that was designed to handle the max possible loads at 120-MPH and 100-ish horsepower. I suspect at under 45-MPH, a single tube of adequate strength that connects the motor/jackshaft mount to the head-tube would be safe, but...if it is poorly done and you die, I will feel bad.

Start with the diameter of the driven tire. Give us that and we can calculate the RPMs of that tire that is needed to provide your desired top speed, plus...list the tooth-count of the largest diameter drop-in sprocket that you can affordably attach to the rear wheel. We can help you calculate the voltage and motors which will come close to working (controllers calculated last).

$2k still to spend? If starting with what you have and free welding plus $2k, that's tight but doable, not including any high quality finish work or fees to get it legal on the road. I'd say spend a little on a welding class and save up a bit more, because things will add up quickly even if you go the route of part of a salvage battery pack from a wrecked electric car (Leaf or a Volt) or the riskier battery route of HobbyKing hardpacks (I'm almost sorry to mention it because you damn sure better do your homework to appreciate and minimize fire risk)

Seriously though, unless you're talking about puttering around with it as a workhorse on a farm (wrong starting point for that anyway), then you really don't want a 35mph bike. I built one of those as my first EV with about 300lb of lead batteries, but of course I had hopes of more useful speed. I rode that lead pig exactly twice, a test ride and drove the kids around a bit. I hacked it up for the useful components the next day.

Thanks for the comprehensive responses/help guys…lot of work on my end…wish I did this for a living!

afaik, the VIN number is on the head tube (only?). Wouldn't it be as "easy" as replacing it as well?

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I think the point is that it was once a regular "motor vehicle" and that some places have laws that don't make using as a non-MV easy, and maybe not possible, on-road. Offroad may make no difference at all, but evne if you took the VIN plate off, it was still a MV once. There's probably even some places that (for otherwise good reason) make taking the VIN plate off illegal, too (cuz of chopshops selling stolen parts/vehicles).

That's certainly reassuring AW, I think my best bet would be making a new frame that works with the existing swing arm. Your 80cc dirt bike is surely more suited for the project. It is what I was looking for for a while, but then I run into this beauty and couldn't resist..
If we use the motorcycle brakes, no need to worry about stopping power as they would be close to overkill.

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That's pretty much it--except that I would actually rather have a MC like yours to start from, because those wheels/tires are a much better choice for my purposes than a dirtbike's large knobby ones...but I have what I have, and all it costs me is time to rework the bits to what I want them to be. And I would rather build my own swingarm for my own frame because the one on the Suzuki weighs a LOT and doens't need to for my purposes (it won't be used to bounce off mountains :lol.

Q's in my head:
Is it too hard to make a head tube?

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For a bicycle? No. A light ebike? Not really. For a motorcycle? I dunno--probalby not but I'd rather use the exsting one--I know that one's strong enough and made right for it's bearings.

What kind of mid drive setup do I need?

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How fast do you want to go, and how quickly do you want to get to that speed? Do you have hills, too? Or is it all flat where you ride? How much do you and the bike (with estimated weight of batteries, motor, etc added) weigh? What kind of range do you need from it under the worst possible conditions?

That'll tell you how much power you need (peak and continuous), which tells you what kind of / size of drive motor you need, and if you'll have to use reductions to get your motor to the right speed at the tire.

ONce yo'uve picked the motor, then you can figure out what kind and how much of a controller you'll need, and what voltage and Ah/C-rate the batteries ahve to be, to fit them in the avialble space/weight.

etard said:

The stressed member can be replaced with something as simple as a cable from Home Depot. The downtube that is missing in this instance is under tension, so a cable would be an easy solution,

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You're ignoring the significant torsion loads on the motorcycle's chassis when it is moving in other than a straight line, and compressive loads under heavy front braking. Cables don't do so well at carrying torsion or compression. I imagine that in time, the two steel tubes doing all that work would crack, even if stresses were not high enough to permanently bend them.

Would this little motor cut it?

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=62361

BarkMau said:

Would this little motor cut it?

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=62361

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No. You need a motor rated for thousands of watts, so capable of more. We need total load (weight as-is and your weight, passenger sometimes?) and terrain to make a reasonable motor recommendation.

First question : Why do you want to make this an e-bicycle? Why not start with a bicycle like everyone else. There's a reason we all use bikes to begin with - WHEN we intend for it to be an ebicycle.

If you electrify this rolling chassis - turn it into a real electric motorcycle and get it all legal.


I just see so much wasted time here, until you straighten out your goals first.